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1 sffilk  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 8:32:26am

I'm wondering how San Francisco's Jews will react to this.

2 poundpod  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 9:07:03am

I am wondering if San Francisco's Council has reviewed the statistics which show that circumcised males have lower rates of HIV transmittal to partners, as well as lower rates of other infections in that region of the body. Naah. This is like the Swedish government passing laws that prevent kosher slaughter of animals. It's a backdoor way to enforce judenrein.

I have never met a Jewish male, observant or otherwise, who proclaimed that he "wished he still had his foreskin," and was angry at his parents or the mohel.

As for whether the procedure is painful, after I had mine done (at 8 days of age) I couldn't walk for a year. (rim shot. . . .oy)

3 dragonfire1981  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 9:07:31am

I am usually not so candid with this, but even if such a stupid law would pass, there would have to be a medical exemption rule in there somewhere. I was circumcised at age 10 due to medical reasons. I won't go into specifics but suffice to say if I hadn't had the procedure I would have likely ended dealing with some serious complications as I entered my teenage years. Would the people of San Fran expect me to live out my adolescent in constant pain because of some stupid law?

4 Tim Nadeau  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 9:42:04am

That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The world is going mad.

5 Steve Dutch  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 9:43:36am

I sure am happy to see that what was once called The Worst Run Big City in America has solved its problems so wonderfully that they can now regulate happy meals and circumcision.

I think the logic here is that we abhor female genital mutilation so we should ban any genital tinkering. Male circumcision is mostly a cultural custom but it does have at least marginal beneficial health effects. It's usually done at an early age and whatever pain it inflicts doesn't seem to have lasting effects. And for the nutbars that insist there's a link between circumcision and violence, recall that Mao-tse Tung, Pol Pot, Genghis Khan and Nero weren't circumcised. They were even breast-fed, never watched Road Runner cartoons, and never ate food additives. Gee, whatever went wrong? (As Dave Barry once said, "If you think circumcising a man early in life makes him violent, try circumcising him later in life.")

Female genital mutilation, in contrast, involves cutting off the most sensitive parts of the genitalia, very often with no anaesthetic, for the specific purpose of depriving women of sexual feeling. Most circumcised guys seem to have their sexual feeling intact. There is absolutely no comparison.

6 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:06:57am

So that explains that "missile" near LA so long ago: it was the Giant Sky Cock getting the hell out of there!

/

In all seriousness, why? As dragonfire1981 said, there are medical reasons why males get circumcisions. It really should be left up to the parents to decide what they should do with their children, within reason. Having their son snip-snipped for the hell of it is well within reason, to me.

Now I'm reminded of the Rabbi in "Robin Hood: Men in Tights"!

7 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:29:19am

Who cares what the parents think. If after the age of 18 someone decides they want to be a Religious Jew and have a circumcision done, that's OK. But you can't get consent from a minor, much less an infant.
Outlawing circumcision is no more antisemitic than outlawing murder.
[Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...]
Check out verses 20-24


As for the STD data, proper hygiene achieves the same effect.

8 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:32:05am

re: #7 kreyagg

Who cares what the parents think. If after the age of 18 someone decides they want to be a Religious Jew and have a circumcision done, that's OK. But you can't get consent from a minor, much less an infant.
Outlawing circumcision is no more antisemitic than outlawing murder.
[Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...]
Check out verses 20-24

As for the STD data, proper hygiene achieves the same effect.

Circumcision is not the same as murder. If you believe that it is, you have a severe problem.

9 Firstinla  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:32:20am

That's one awesome jump from regulating toys in happy meals to outlawing circumcision. Aren't these same nutzies that rant about the government staying out of the privacy of bedrooms?

10 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:43:52am

re: #8 Alouette

I am not equating circumcisions with murder. I was saying that a law incidentally bans a primitive custom of a particular religion is not Anti-"That Religion"

11 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:46:57am

re: #8 Alouette

Circumcision is not the same as murder. If you believe that it is, you have a severe problem.

At least you seem to be admitting that it is only a matter of degrees to which the victim is harmed. Yes, circumcising an infant is not as bad as murdering him, but it is still wrong.

12 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:51:27am

re: #2 poundpod

Would a law requiring that circumcisions may only be performed by licensed surgeons in a hospital also be antisemitic?

13 jaunte  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 10:54:58am

Doesn't The Board of Supervisors have more significant things to worry about?
If they're going to make circumcision a misdemeanor, I'd like to see the reasoning that exempts piercing, tattoos, and plastic surgery enhancements from the law.

14 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:05:40am

re: #11 kreyagg

At least you seem to be admitting that it is only a matter of degrees to which the victim is harmed. Yes, circumcising an infant is not as bad as murdering him, but it is still wrong.

Circumcision is not in any way wrong.

15 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:12:40am

re: #14 Alouette

Circumcision is not in any way wrong.

You are welcome to your opinion.
The only path available to convince me that it isn't wrong is through medical data which currently shows little to no benefit for the procedure.
I obviously do think that it is wrong to impose such a decision on a minor, especially one that cannot express its wishes in any form.

16 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:19:38am

re: #15 kreyagg

You are welcome to your opinion.
The only path available to convince me that it isn't wrong is through medical data which currently shows little to no benefit for the procedure.
I obviously do think that it is wrong to impose such a decision on a minor, especially one that cannot express its wishes in any form.

I guess you missed this medical data.

Jews are required to circumcise their sons at the age of 8 days.

17 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:44:39am

re: #16 Alouette

I guess you missed this medical data.

Jews are required to circumcise their sons at the age of 8 days.

[Link: www.ama-assn.org...]

Regardless of these findings, behavioral factors are far more important risk factors for acquisition of HIV and other sexually transmissible diseases than circumcision status, and circumcision cannot be responsibly viewed as "protecting" against such infections.


Basically this is stating "teach your child the ABC method and to keep himself clean and the benefits of circumcision are obviated."

Religious arguments are automatically vacant. Bronze Age mythology has nothing valid to bring to this discussion.

18 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:47:02am

re: #17 kreyagg

[Link: www.ama-assn.org...]

Basically this is stating "teach your child the ABC method and to keep himself clean and the benefits of circumcision are obviated."

Religious arguments are automatically vacant. Bronze Age mythology has nothing valid to bring to this discussion.

OK, you admit you're a bigot. Your avatar proves it.

19 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:50:24am

Please explain what exactly makes you think that I am a bigot?
I assure you that I refer to ALL religious beliefs as mythology.

20 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 11:54:20am

re: #19 kreyagg

Please explain what exactly makes you think that I am a bigot?
I assure you that I refer to ALL religious beliefs as mythology.

That makes you a bigot against all religious believers to the point that you want to ban all practices that you don't like.

21 Slap  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 12:15:40pm

I don't want to ruffle any feathers here, but really -- how is it that the "Examiner" is ever given any credence whatsoever?

I say this not as an ideological criticism. I leave that question aside.

In my observation, the group of websites calling themselves "the Examiner" are participating in mass misnomer. IMO, they should be called the Unexamined.

Or just The Enquirer, or Weekly World News. These would be more appropriate descriptions.

If they were legit, there'd be some wide acceptance of the fact that they're some serious journalistic studs. I mean, c'mon -- Victoria Jackson has more journalistic credibility. The "Examiners" are downright slovenly in their examination skills.

I've examined the SF Chronicle and Oakland Trib, and have found nothing to indicate that this is anything other than some chowderheaded dolt who submitted a proposal for a regulation to the council. I say this because there is NOTHING in either paper regarding this "outrage", and certainly no indication whatsoever that anything is being contemplated by the Council.

This just sounds like more fake outrage under the rubric of "that San Francisco -- buncha gay libs want to take away our precious freedom and foreskins!!!!!"

But hey, maybe that's just me.

22 kreyagg  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 12:17:59pm

I don't like the practice of mock cannibalism that is Catholic Communion, but it does not harm anyone and almost impossible to impose without consent.

Prohibiting the consumption of pork and shellfish in your home is absolutely silly, again nobody is harmed so there is no problem.

What if that child decides that he wants to join a religion that requires that ones body be entirely intact? What gives you the right to take that choice away from him?

Whether or not I like a practice has nothing to do with it.

I think that there are better methods of animal slaughter than Kosher/Halal methods, I am sure that the modern "bolt through the brain" method is probably more humane but I can't see outlawing those traditional methods in spite of my not liking them.

23 SpaceJesus  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 12:38:07pm

The city needs to show some kind of compelling interest in doing this, which I really doubt they can.

24 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 12:53:53pm

re: #19 kreyagg

Please explain what exactly makes you think that I am a bigot?
I assure you that I refer to ALL religious beliefs as mythology.

There is an aspect of life in which humans relate to each other through ritual and tradition. It encompasses our emotions, our psyche, it helps us to define who we are. If you were to do some study regarding the psychological importance of connecting in such a manner, you would see that it is very important.

Many aspects of religion cannot be explained right now. From the aspect of the Mind, Soul, Spirit--however you wish to label this part of ourselves, religion is quite advanced. However, science is just beginning to break ground on what is termed the 'Mind'.

To simply dismiss as Bronze Age, many of the rituals and customs that billions of people on the planet adopt as crucial to their lives, without any serious study about these rituals and customs, that is being a bigot. You end up reducing those who adopt such rituals as being two-dimensional, thoughtless, beings. That's the essence of being a bigot--automatic reduction of others based on your belief or dislike of who they are or what they do.

Jews, as a group, are not the most observant of religious groups. However, despite our general disregard for most of what we are commanded to do, milah (circumcision), remains something that a vast majority of Jewish families choose to do. We are not abusing our children, because these children show signs of being raised in pretty healthy environments. I will not get into the effects of mass culture on--everyone.

What you have done, is to easily dismiss, and reduce the heartfelt decisions of a great many people who have shown themselves to be otherwise, inspired, intelligent, hard-working, caring, and possessing a sense of the world in which there is something greater than their own self.

It is bigoted because you would readily admit to all of the positive qualities that I just listed, but insist that on the 8th day of their male child's life, these qualities magically disappear. Why? Because they disagree with you. Erasing a long list of admirable qualities simply because people are not like you, that is being a bigot.

So, now you know.

25 Michael Orion Powell  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 12:55:53pm

I have alot of things to be mad at my parents about but the loss of my foreskin is not one of them.

26 Michael Orion Powell  Fri, Nov 12, 2010 1:14:42pm

re: #5 SteveDutch

Well said, Steve. There has not been at one point in my life where I have regreted my Semitic operation.

27 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sat, Nov 13, 2010 6:33:01am

re: #17 kreyagg


Religious arguments are automatically vacant. Bronze Age mythology has nothing valid to bring to this discussion.

Putting aside the Jewish religious-cultural requirement for circumcision, "Bronze Age mythology" has value and came in very useful for Jewish people over the centuries.

A lot of the ancient traditions have health benefits, such as washing hands before meals, avoiding ringworm from pork, eating well-done meat, and taking weekly baths in the mikva. Today many look back upon those habits as common sense but back then no one knew the health science behind these things. In fact, Jews were persecuted for their odd ability of staying alive during plagues by their less hygienic neighbors during the middle ages.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised to hear more medical studies come out with new benefits of circumcision in the future. Circumcision may save millions in Africa. There are already studies out there showing lower levels of penile cancer in men who are circumcised and possibly less cervical cancer for women. I bet that all sorts of other STI transmission rates and their connection to circumcision haven't been studied yet, leaving room for more developments and recommendations.


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