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1 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:35:05pm

We're better off with you here.

Antagonistic argument is what this place is all about, don't let a few chase you away.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:36:07pm

re: #1 b_sharp

He's not saying he's leaving.

3 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:38:30pm

I've refrained from this argument. Needless to say I've found myself to be a bit more libertarian than I originally thought. And there is nothing wrong with that, LGF thrives with diversity of thinking.

Keep posting here Mr. Brown.

4 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:49:08pm

re: #2 Sergey Romanov

He's not saying he's leaving.

Perhaps he isn't leaving, but he is depriving LGF of some well thought out and articulated views.

5 Barrett Brown  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:51:22pm

To clarify, I am not leaving the site. Rather, I think it would be best for everyone concerned if I relegate certain activities elsewhere until this all blows over. I am very happy with my interactions here even in this, and I appreciate having had the chance to make my case even if I've been unable to change many minds on the subject so far. In about two weeks when R.S. McCain is scheduled to do something ridiculous and/or transparently racist, I'll be back as usual.

6 Barrett Brown  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:52:21pm

re: #4 b_sharp

Perhaps he isn't leaving, but he is depriving LGF of some well thought out and articulated views.

Not at all; I am merely a click away, and only for a little while.

7 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 3:52:35pm

Damn, I'm good. I single handedly convinced BB not to leave.

8 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:07:43pm

BTW, Barrett, I will try to get the page on the bombings up by tomorrow.

9 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:12:07pm

OK, I went out (ooh, it's freezing) and bought some beer and chips so I'm gonna watching Austin Powers 2 now. BBL. :-)

10 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:12:26pm

re: #5 Barrett Brown

To clarify, I am not leaving the site. Rather, I think it would be best for everyone concerned if I relegate certain activities elsewhere until this all blows over. I am very happy with my interactions here even in this, and I appreciate having had the chance to make my case even if I've been unable to change many minds on the subject so far. In about two weeks when R.S. McCain is scheduled to do something ridiculous and/or transparently racist, I'll be back as usual.

Barrett
Charles's detractors will use anything to try to harm Charles and LGF, they always do.

I believe they will use this page as proof people are not free to have differing opinions.

11 b_sharp  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:13:34pm

re: #10 ozbloke

Barrett
Charles's detractors will use anything to try to harm Charles and LGF, they always do.

I believe they will use this page as proof people are not free to have differing opinions.

You speak the truth.

12 Qabal  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:32:43pm

You're not the only Wikileaks supporter who regularly reads the site. It's just that occasionally groupthink sets in, like it does in every place at every time, and Wikileaks is one of those where it has.

13 Barrett Brown  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:35:01pm

re: #11 b_sharp

Point taken. I'll give a little thought as to what the best policy would be on my part.

14 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:41:15pm
As both of these groups are here viewed not only negatively, but as actual threats to Western Civilization, it would be inappropriate for me to advocate, promote, and recruit at this site.

I don't see it so much as a threat to Western Civilization, but more of a wannabe threat.

From the post at OG:

The “tumult” which I here praise is in reference to those institutions which are responsible for the criminalization of some hundred million Americans for engaging in consensual “crimes” such as drug use and prostitution and which are elsewhere responsible for censorship, torture, irresponsible warfare that has caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands while achieving very little and draining several treasuries, the infiltration and further corruption of Third World governments, and any number of other things which I believe – and apparently I am in the minority on this – are worse than the practice of launching DDOS attacks.

By "those institutions", do you mean the whole US government, or parts of it, or other governments as well?

It's silly to say you're in the minority of those who see a DDOS attack as less bad than the list of crimes you've provided. However, you may be in the minority (here, anyway) who believe this justifies stealing and distributing classified information.

By the way, I would not consider stalkers at all when deciding what to post where.

15 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:49:12pm

re: #14 wrenchwench

It's silly to say you're in the minority of those who see a DDOS attack as less bad than the list of crimes you've provided. However, you may be in the minority (here, anyway) who believe this justifies stealing and distributing classified information.

By the way, I would not consider stalkers at all when deciding what to post where.

Do you think it would be ok to the facts clear?
Manning is the stealer
Assange is he publisher
Anonymous is responsible for the DOS

I do not like seeing Assange lumped with stealing with no supporting evidence.

16 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:49:16pm

re: #12 Qabal

The 'Groupthink' assertion is a typical slander ascribed to Lizards. While the phenomenon does occur many regulars at LGF spoke critical of Assange/Wikileaks out of the gate when there was no clear consensus yet.

17 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:51:23pm

re: #14 wrenchwench

I would not consider stalkers at all when deciding what to post where.

This, a hundred times this. Barrett, I could not possibly care less what the crack-brained stalkers think about your posts or anyone else's posts. They simply don't matter.

The discussions have been very interesting to lots of people, if occasionally a bit testy, and you should never do anything (or NOT do anything) because it will give stalkers ammo. Fuck 'em. Full speed ahead.

18 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:51:37pm

re: #16 BigPapa

The 'Groupthink' assertion is a typical slander ascribed to Lizards. While the phenomenon does occur many regulars at LGF spoke critical of Assange/Wikileaks out of the gate when there was no clear consensus yet.

The difficulty is when a differing opinion is belittled. Getting personal. Next step the talk turns to analyzing dings. Very typical. That happens a lot and turns me off.

19 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:52:10pm

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

Sorry, wrong thread. :-)

20 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:53:03pm

re: #17 Charles

This, a hundred times this. Barrett, I could not possibly care less what the crack-brained stalkers think about your posts or anyone else's posts. They simply don't matter.

The discussions have been very interesting to lots of people, if occasionally a bit testy, and you should never do anything (or NOT do anything) because it will give stalkers ammo. Fuck 'em. Full speed ahead.

This is what I expected from Charles. More updings if I could.

21 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:55:04pm

re: #12 Qabal

You're not the only Wikileaks supporter who regularly reads the site. It's just that occasionally groupthink sets in, like it does in every place at every time, and Wikileaks is one of those where it has.

What groupthink? You're free to post your opinions. Sure, you might get downdinged. Not the end of the world. It's just there are not many JA supporters here, although there are many people who would object to any unfair treatment of JA by authorities, which is not the same as supporting JA.

22 wrenchwench  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:55:25pm

re: #15 ozbloke

Do you think it would be ok to the facts clear?
Manning is the stealer
Assange is he publisher
Anonymous is responsible for the DOS

I do not like seeing Assange lumped with stealing with no supporting evidence.


OK, Assange is approved of by wikileaks fans for the distribution. Do the fans of wikileaks condemn Manning for his role? I have not seen that.

23 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:55:48pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

The difficulty is when a differing opinion is belittled. Getting personal. Next step the talk turns to analyzing dings. Very typical. That happens a lot and turns me off.

Well that I can agree on and it turns me off too. I'm not as regular as other committed posters so there's some skirmishes I've probably missed. I'd not 'down-ding' Barret for taken an opposing stance, that misses the point and his demeanor does not warrant that.

24 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 4:59:38pm

re: #18 Stanley Sea

The difficulty is when a differing opinion is belittled. Getting personal. Next step the talk turns to analyzing dings. Very typical. That happens a lot and turns me off.

I also think we're talking of two different things here. 'Groupthink' is the tendency to agree on things put forth by one or a few. What you're talking about it plain old cliquishness. Not to parse, and both things to happen from time to time at LGF, and I don't like it either.

In this case I did not see 'groupthink' about Wiki/Assange, many spoke out right up front.

We're not here to get Karma, it's just a stat.

25 Usually refered to as anyways  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:00:44pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

OK, Assange is approved of by wikileaks fans for the distribution. Do the fans of wikileaks condemn Manning for his role? I have not seen that.

I don't have any idea, my knowledge of wikileaks comes from reading LGF.
I'm interested in posts being factual not emotional.

If I post anything not factual, I would hope lizards would call me on it, that way we all may get closer to the truth.

26 Stanghazi  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:02:23pm

re: #24 BigPapa

I also think we're talking of two different things here. 'Groupthink' is the tendency to agree on things put forth by one or a few. What you're talking about it plain old cliquishness. Not to parse, and both things to happen from time to time at LGF, and I don't like it either.

In this case I did not see 'groupthink' about Wiki/Assange, many spoke out right up front.

We're not here to get Karma, it's just a stat.

Thanks for helping me clarify. You are correct. Today though there were some posts about the typical moonbattiness, that to me was trying to push any disagreement away. I don't like. I didn't respond.

27 Kronocide  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:11:41pm

re: #26 Stanley Sea

Thanks for helping me clarify. You are correct. Today though there were some posts about the typical moonbattiness, that to me was trying to push any disagreement away. I don't like. I didn't respond.

It's probably best to not take part in those cliquey skirmishes, let them blow over. And to tie this offshoot back to the original post, Barrett is trying to stay above that so that's definitely worth respect, even if he has a screen saver with Assange riding a unicorn.

28 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:14:43pm

re: #26 Stanley Sea

Thanks for helping me clarify. You are correct. Today though there were some posts about the typical moonbattiness, that to me was trying to push any disagreement away. I don't like. I didn't respond.

Ahem.
And some of us see the typical "wingnuttiness" posts the same way, but we get over it, or do the same thing, just don't respond.

29 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:19:41pm

re: #6 Barrett Brown

I like the differing point of view you have offered.
You're civil and it's a discussion. That's why I come to LGF.
Charles has a mostly civil site, with very intelligent posters.
(Except for a few, but they still get to post, as long as they are civil.)

30 reine.de.tout  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:23:11pm

re: #12 Qabal

You're not the only Wikileaks supporter who regularly reads the site. It's just that occasionally groupthink sets in, like it does in every place at every time, and Wikileaks is one of those where it has.

I would call it "groupthink" if everybody was thinking/saying the same thing.

That is not what happened here.

I'm in agreement more with Killgore than with Barrett; but I thoroughly enjoyed the discussions and the pages.

31 Spocomptonite  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 5:53:31pm

The wikileaks thing is kind of stupid. I haven't investigated it in-depth, but what was released just seemed like the the international version of that jerk in an office who reports the watercooler gossip to the boss in the hopes of getting rewarded himself and getting everyone else in trouble.

Are there times where leaking stuff and whistleblowing is important? Yes. Pentagon papers, Enron, Worldcom all come to mind. But what makes these beneficial is that they are done with a purpose in mind (which Wikileaks' diplomatic cables doesn't have) and reveals wrongful, harmful actions taken (the cables seem to me to just be international gossip and talk).

Hopefully the internal schism that occurred at Wikileaks after the cables were leaked is a sign that I'm not the only one who thinks this. I do think that Wikileaks, or something like it, has a role to play in society, a needed one, but releasing this wasn't it. Some things are better kept away from a ridiculous mass media, like climate emails and these cables.

32 Dancing along the light of day  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 6:30:59pm

re: #31 Spocomptonite

You really need to do some reading, before you post.
XYZ dude, it's down.

33 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 7:25:33pm

Nationalism is banal.

When in doubt, always choose freedom.

34 Spocomptonite  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 8:08:26pm

Darn, my first downdings.

But hey, a valuable lesson: I am, if it isn't already apparent, very harsh on ignorance. I should expect no less when I express my own.

35 Barrett Brown  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 8:39:15pm

re: #34 Spocomptonite

We all do that, don't worry. I've said much stupider things than you could ever hope to, son. Number love.

36 laZardo  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 9:11:24pm

re: #35 Barrett Brown

Just so you know, you're not alone in your corner.

37 freetoken  Sat, Dec 11, 2010 9:50:37pm

Barrett - I never minded your posts on Wikileaks. I just think your reasoning is flawed.

38 Barrett Brown  Sun, Dec 12, 2010 10:17:10am

re: #8 Sergey Romanov

BTW, Barrett, I will try to get the page on the bombings up by tomorrow.

Thanks, but don't rush, there's no hurry.

39 Charles Johnson  Sun, Dec 12, 2010 1:26:23pm

By the way, Barrett -- I hope you're not surprised that one of those stalker types you mentioned in this post is now commenting at Ordinary Gentlemen.

This reinforces the point I made -- what these self-appointed obsessed enemies of LGF have to say does not matter. They'll rant away about anything at all. Who cares?

If you'd like to post your full piece here too, you're more than welcome to. (And if you let them post at Ordinary Gentlemen you should realize that they'll do their best to make the discussion impossible with their unending psychodrama.)

40 Obdicut  Sun, Dec 12, 2010 2:41:37pm

re: #12 Qabal

You're not the only Wikileaks supporter who regularly reads the site. It's just that occasionally groupthink sets in, like it does in every place at every time, and Wikileaks is one of those where it has.

There is absolutely not groupthink about Wikileaks at LGF. There have been wholehearted supporters, there have been people who say that going after wikileaks is just stupid because it represents something you can't stop with legal action, there have been any number of expressions on the subject.

I do not get why an active debate where there's maybe a majority in one direction expressing themselves forcefully is 'groupthink'.

41 Barrett Brown  Sun, Dec 12, 2010 3:38:44pm

re: #39 Charles

Not surprised at all. Stalkers obviously can't bother any of us at this point and most especially not you. My main concern really was that Wikileaks and Anon had been widely viewed here as criminal organizations and Assange himself a legitimate target for black-ops operations such as the one in Sweden (although Trout is the only one I've seen express that surprising view), and thus I wasn't comfortable advocating for them here particularly since I'm involved in Anon and have worked to raise money for Wikileaks in the past. I also wasn't sure that my advocacy was having any positive impact. But if you're comfortable with me continuing here on this, then absolutely, I'll put up the latest essay here and will continue to do so, and look forward to continued debate on the subject.


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