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1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 5:44:43pm

Heh.

2 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:36:22pm
Therefore, the Espionage Act could affect them, too. Benjamin Wittes, a legal analyst at the Brookings Institution, said that the act would cover any "news stories, all blogging on them, and all dinner party conversations about their contents." He added that "taken at its word, the Espionage Act makes felons of us all."


Uh, no. This is the kind of silly hysteria that makes headlines but prevents a serious discussion of what's going on. The government has resisted using espionage laws for journalists against the press and will continue to do so. Wikileaks is not really a journalistic endeavor, their sole purpose is to publish as much stolen material as they can get their hands on. The government is not going to start charging journalists with crimes and the nation states are not going to fail. The sky is not falling.

The only thing Assange is going to accomplish is getting new laws passed to keep dicks like himself from making a mess.

3 Randall Gross  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:44:50pm

I'm not a lawyer, and would be talking out my ass were I to assume anything here. That said I would guess that they don't use espionage acts but rather ones that apply to secrecy of communications, copyright, and other such things. FCC style regs in other words... I bet some apply.

4 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:45:32pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Can you show me that Assange he is not a journalist?

5 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:48:41pm

re: #4 ozbloke

Can you show me that Assange he is not a journalist?


I'm not really interested in debating Wikileaks supporters anymore. It will be interesting to see how this pans out but talking about rounding up reporters is just silly. It's not going to happen. There are real and serious issues to be discussed regarding wikileaks, mass detention of reporters is not one of them.

6 philosophus invidius  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:51:03pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

[snip]
keep dicks like himself from making a mess.


double entendre?

7 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:51:06pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I'm not really interested in debating Wikileaks supporters anymore. It will be interesting to see how this pans out but talking about rounding up reporters is just silly. It's not going to happen. There are real and serious issues to be discussed regarding wikileaks, mass detention of reporters is not one of them.

Can you show me what I said that made you pigeon hole me?

8 SpaceJesus  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:57:39pm

I think some people need to draw a line between people who support wikileaks and their platform, and people who follow the rule of law. Just because I believe WL to be protected by the 1st Amendment does not mean I agree with everything they do.

9 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 6:58:23pm

re: #3 Thanos

I'm not a lawyer, and would be talking out my ass were I to assume anything here. That said I would guess that they don't use espionage acts but rather ones that apply to secrecy of communications, copyright, and other such things. FCC style regs in other words... I bet some apply.

Hi Thanos, using the espionage act was mentioned in the link.
I have zero idea if/what Assange will be charged with.

I posted the article because of the ramifications that may come out of the wikileaks saga if espionage charges are followed.

I linked it because I thought the article was interesting.

10 jaunte  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:00:59pm

Reporters Without Borders open letter to Assange:

...you cannot claim to enjoy the protection of sources while at the same time, when it suits you, denying that you are a news media.

The precedent you have set leaves all those people throughout the world who risk their freedom and sometimes their lives for the sake of online information even more exposed to reprisals. Such imprudence endangers your own sources and, beyond that, the future of the Internet as an information medium. A total of 116 netizens are currently in prison in a dozen countries because of the comments they posted online. Can you image the same situation in the country of the First Amendment?
[Link: en.rsf.org...]

11 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:01:20pm

re: #8 SpaceJesus

I think some people need to draw a line between people who support wikileaks and their platform, and people who follow the rule of law. Just because I believe WL to be protected by the 1st Amendment does not mean I agree with everything they do.

Of course you are right.

Posting without specifically condemning wikileaks is in no way supporting wikileaks.

12 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:05:38pm

re: #9 ozbloke

Hi Thanos, using the espionage act was mentioned in the link.
I have zero idea if/what Assange will be charged with.

I posted the article because of the ramifications that may come out of the wikileaks saga if espionage charges are followed.

I linked it because I thought the article was interesting.

The act was written during WWI, product of wartime hysteria and a national mentality that might not fly today. Panic following sabotage of the Black Tom munitions plant was part of the driving force.

13 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:06:32pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

The act was written during WWI, product of wartime hysteria and a national mentality that might not fly today. Panic following sabotage of the Black Tom munitions plant was part of the driving force.

Decatur Deb,

Thank you, I will go look that up.

14 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:07:08pm

re: #9 ozbloke

I think how this all plays out, in the end, will be interesting.
I also agree with SpaceJesus, statement...

Just because I believe WL to be protected by the 1st Amendment does not mean I agree with everything they do.
15 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:08:06pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

I'm not really interested in debating Wikileaks supporters anymore. It will be interesting to see how this pans out but talking about rounding up reporters is just silly. It's not going to happen. There are real and serious issues to be discussed regarding wikileaks, mass detention of reporters is not one of them.

Did you find anywhere yet where I specifically supported Julian Assange, Wiki Leaks or Anonymous?

16 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:12:22pm

re: #13 ozbloke

Decatur Deb,

Thank you, I will go look that up.

Wiki:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

17 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:13:28pm

re: #15 ozbloke

I'm done with obtuse questions about Assange being or not being a journalist. There are real issues about how he can be charged, can he be extradited, etc. What we are probably going to see is new laws and extradition treaties to put Assange and his copycats out of business and in jail. I don't think this is going to effect regular journalists despite the slippery slope arguments,

18 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:14:45pm

re: #16 Decatur Deb

Wiki:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Beck mentioned that on his show today. He hinted that there was a government cover up and used it as an excuse to start a war (or something).

19 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:18:15pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Beck mentioned that on his show today. He hinted that there was a government cover up and used it as an excuse to start a war (or something).

Memory is funny. I first heard of Black Tom on a "historical newspaper" bubble gum card from 1949/1950. Decades later I worked at the next arsenal over.

20 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:18:33pm

re: #14 Floral Giraffe

I think how this all plays out, in the end, will be interesting.
I also agree with SpaceJesus, statement...

My knowledge on wikileaks is from Aussie Newspapers, LGF and links from LGF.

As I have stated before I haven't come to any position on wikileaks.

I want to know more about the Manning/Assange relationship.
But somehow without a trial I don't think were going to get that.
I clearly see why people have moral and ethical concerns about the leaks, not just Americans, its brought out some very embarrassing things that may effect Australia's relationships and many other countries.

My interest is what will happen from the legal side.
Hence I discuss it without the interest in the moral or ethical side.

Manning clearly broke the law.
Assange, remains to be seen, I suspect the US may come up with chargers, it will be interesting to see how that plays out.
If the US can show he is not a jouralist they may get somewhere.
If they can't then there may be ramifications down the line, collateral damage if you will.
NYT and the rest: If the US can't prove Assange is not a journo, then there could be issues here.

21 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:24:48pm

re: #17 Killgore Trout

I'm done with obtuse questions about Assange being or not being a journalist. There are real issues about how he can be charged, can he be extradited, etc. What we are probably going to see is new laws and extradition treaties to put Assange and his copycats out of business and in jail. I don't think this is going to effect regular journalists despite the slippery slope arguments,

So call me a supporter of wikileaks , and when asked why, or for evidence of why you have that view you deflect.
Seriously, I would have expected better of you.

22 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:25:56pm

re: #20 ozbloke

Did I see one of your officials make a statement of support for Assange?

23 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:26:20pm

I was wondering if he would be considered to have suborned the document leaks.
From dictionary dot com

sub·orn
   –verb (used with object)
1.to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime.

24 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:27:01pm

re: #20 ozbloke

NYT and the rest: If the US can't prove Assange is not a journo, then there could be issues here.

Sorry that should read:

NYT and the rest: If the US can't prove Assange is not a journo, and Assange is found guilty then there could be issues here.

25 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:28:59pm

Prove to me that Assange is, indeed, a journalist.

26 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:29:52pm

re: #22 Decatur Deb

Did I see one of your officials make a statement of support for Assange?

Yes, our Ex Prime Minister Kevin Rudd. He is our current Foreign Minister. Similar if you like to Secretary of State I believe.
He suggests it was the US Govt. fault.

27 jaunte  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:30:41pm

Louis Klarevas:
WikiLeaks, the Web, and the Need to Rethink the Espionage Act

The Espionage Act needs to catch up with the times. For starters, the statutes should re-written to require proof of mens rea -- evidence that an individual knew what he or she was doing was wrong and still purposely chose to violate the law. This will protect those who inadvertently or naively come into possession of classified materials as well as those who willfully retain materials they do not realize are classified.

But arguably the most important reform would be a public domain exemption. Once classified documents are publicly exposed, anyone who comes into subsequent contact with them -- physically or virtually -- should be shielded from prosecution. This simple reform will go a long way toward bringing this legal relic into the information age.

28 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:31:27pm

re: #23 Floral Giraffe

I was wondering if he would be considered to have suborned the document leaks.
From dictionary dot com

sub·orn
   –verb (used with object)
1.to bribe or induce (someone) unlawfully or secretly to perform some misdeed or to commit a crime.

I think I heard that before on LGF, not sure Iv'e seen any link to media stories though.

29 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:32:04pm

re: #25 Varek Raith

Prove to me that Assange is, indeed, a journalist.

Is this being addressed to me Varek?

30 Varek Raith  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:33:26pm

re: #29 ozbloke

Is this being addressed to me Varek?

To anyone in general.

31 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:37:40pm

re: #30 Varek Raith

To anyone in general.

I went hunting google the other day, wish I hadn't.

I got a page that had definitions from a shit load of sites.
The amount of differing definitions blew my mind.

I tried to persist, but I found that I could easily defend either side depending on my whim. From reputable sites I will add.

Its going to be interesting.

The only thing I can say that is almost guaranteed is the net will probably pay a price.

32 Killgore Trout  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:42:57pm

re: #21 ozbloke

Seriously, I would have expected better of you..


Sucker. I was trying to be a better person but that was yesterday.
Assange is a deconstructionist. What is journalism? Is a blogger a journalist? If I write something down on paper am I a journalist? What is music? If I put a dirty toilet in a gallery is it art? Is a plumber an artist?
It's an easy gimmick and Assange stumbled upon it at the right time. You could have easily done the same gimmick 50 years ago with a photocopier but they would have thrown you in jail or killed you with no questions asked. The internet makes things a little different but the principles and reality haven't changed.
If he can't be charged with existing laws we're going to need new ones.

33 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:42:59pm

I'm only watching this in passing, since only a very small piece of what the public can learn has been released/developed. I've seen discussions that make him a publisher, rather than a journalist. If anything, that is a more-protected species.

34 SpaceJesus  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 7:48:47pm

re: #20 ozbloke


The Court hasn't been shy in the past with extending the same freedoms of the press to freedom of expression in general.

35 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:02:07pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Sucker. I was trying to be a better person but that was yesterday.
Assange is a deconstructionist. What is journalism? Is a blogger a journalist? If I write something down on paper am I a journalist? What is music? If I put a dirty toilet in a gallery is it art? Is a plumber an artist?
It's an easy gimmick and Assange stumbled upon it at the right time. You could have easily done the same gimmick 50 years ago with a photocopier but they would have thrown you in jail or killed you with no questions asked. The internet makes things a little different but the principles and reality haven't changed.
If he can't be charged with existing laws we're going to need new ones.

Well I have the article below and I have you stating he is not.
I asked you for a link, and you accuse my of being a wikileaks supporter.

I politely ask you why, and/or for evidence and you deflect.
Do people have to jump up and down and shout to be given an answer?

Media chiefs throw support behind WikiLeaks

Some of Australia's most senior media professionals, including bosses of major newspapers, television networks and websites, have written to Prime Minister Julia Gillard to express their support for WikiLeaks.

The letter was initiated by the board of the Walkley Foundation, Australia's professional journalism organisation.

...

"In essence, WikiLeaks, an organisation that aims to expose official secrets, is doing what the media have always done: bringing to light material governments would prefer to keep secret," the letter said.

"It is the media's duty to responsibly report such material if it comes into their possession.

"To aggressively attempt to shut WikiLeaks down, to threaten to prosecute those who publish official leaks and to pressure companies to cease doing commercial business with WikiLeaks is a serious threat to democracy, which relies on a free and fearless press."

The letter, signed by editors and news directors, including ABC director of news Kate Torney, said the reaction of the US and Australian governments "to date has been deeply troubling".

36 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:03:52pm

re: #33 Decatur Deb

I'm only watching this in passing, since only a very small piece of what the public can learn has been released/developed. I've seen discussions that make him a publisher, rather than a journalist. If anything, that is a more-protected species.

He seems to be gaining support within a number of media, the type of backing that suggests the media accept him as a publisher and or journo.

37 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:10:07pm

re: #36 ozbloke

He seems to be gaining support within a number of media, the type of backing that suggests the media accept him as a publisher and or journo.

A journalist would normally generate content. A publisher needs little more than a mimeograph. The j-schools have been pretty open-minded about the new media. How much of one's income is generated from publication has also been considered.

38 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:14:11pm

re: #37 Decatur Deb

A journalist would normally generate content. A publisher needs little more than a mimeograph. The j-schools have been pretty open-minded about the new media. How much of one's income is generated from publication has also been considered.

Seems to me as a cynical old bastard, from what you said that in the last decade many journalists have become publishers.

39 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:17:17pm

re: #37 Decatur Deb

A journalist would normally generate content. A publisher needs little more than a mimeograph. The j-schools have been pretty open-minded about the new media. How much of one's income is generated from publication has also been considered.

In that would the donations to wikileaks over the past four years amount to an income?

As I have read in the first few years wikileaks spent $200,000pa, and in the past 12mths maybe $450,000. I believe also in the last 12 months, wikileaks has paid staff.

40 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:20:42pm

re: #39 ozbloke

In that would the donations to wikileaks over the past four years amount to an income?

As I have read in the first few years wikileaks spent $200,000pa, and in the past 12mths maybe $450,000. I believe also in the last 12 months, wikileaks has paid staff.

Yeah. I have no trouble seeing them as a publishing outlet, I think they consciously stay out of the content end, unless you count redacting.

41 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:27:07pm

re: #40 Decatur Deb

Yeah. I have no trouble seeing them as a publishing outlet, I think they consciously stay out of the content end, unless you count redacting.

Don't know if that was meant to be funny, but I laughed.

I have not gone looking, I haven't seen any list of whats been published so far, the Aussie (ABC) press seems to focus on the Australian cables.

I'm wondering what aspect of the issue will they target for charges.

Something that will stick against wikileaks but not include say the NYT and other media organisations.

The passing round of the encrypted files is the only aspect I can see that others may not also be guilty of.

42 Decatur Deb  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:30:51pm

re: #41 ozbloke

Knocking off for the night. Going to dream I'm back in school in '70, arguing for Ellsberg.

43 Usually refered to as anyways  Mon, Dec 13, 2010 8:33:25pm

Cheers, night.

44 Randall Gross  Tue, Dec 14, 2010 6:02:16am

If you are truly interested in just the law, here are a few pointers to cases :
[Link: intellit.muskingum.edu...]

[Link: all.net...]

There is nothing old that is not new again, indeed there are some marked similarities between Manning / Assange and Boyce / Lee (aka The Falcon and the Snowman) I think Lee got out of prison in 2003.

45 Usually refered to as anyways  Tue, Dec 14, 2010 11:35:23am

re: #44 Thanos

If you are truly interested in just the law, here are a few pointers to cases :
[Link: intellit.muskingum.edu...]

[Link: all.net...]

There is nothing old that is not new again, indeed there are some marked similarities between Manning / Assange and Boyce / Lee (aka The Falcon and the Snowman) I think Lee got out of prison in 2003.


[Video]

Hi Thanos,

Thank you for the info.

2 questions.
Why do you question that my interest is the law?
Wouldn't Lee be the Manning not Assange, didn't Lee steal the info?


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