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1 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 6:46:43pm

Anarchists don't oppose organization. They oppose the initiation of force and thus governments as we know them. Just thought I'd point that out since you are an intellectually honest person/

2 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 6:57:38pm

re: #1 Barrett Brown

Anarchists don't oppose organization. They oppose the initiation of force and thus governments as we know them. Just thought I'd point that out since you are an intellectually honest person/

12 people leading 1,000 is not anarchy. Who's dishonest now. What kind of anarchist hires a lawyer to sue a racist for slander? Peace activists or hostage takers? Who's being dishonest?
Let's be honest. Even you know I'm right. Somewhere among all your delusions about the fall of the nation states you know that I'm right.

3 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:03:15pm

re: #1 Barrett Brown

How high up are you in the leadership of this Anarchist fraud? You seem to at least know the leaders and talk to them regularly. I suppose you have plenty of money laying around for lawyers unlike the kids who actually carry out the attacks. Must be nice.

4 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:05:23pm

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Not only am I taking legal action against McCain, but I'm also drinking tap water which has been brought to me by government agencies - by my tax dollars in part. I also advise candidates in political races that I believe to be fundamentally flawed. You are not pointing out anything of which I am unaware, and the fact that you conflate anarchism with opposition to human organization should tell you that perhaps I am in a better position than you when it comes to deciding how an anarchist ought to proceed when living on land claimed by a government.

Incidentally, I didn't hire a lawyer. I don't have to hire lawyers anymore.

5 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:06:44pm

"Honesty"

6 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:07:57pm

re: #1 Barrett Brown

GASP! You;re drinking TAP water.
LOL!

7 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:08:58pm

re: #4 Barrett Brown

Incidentally, I didn't hire a lawyer. I don't have to hire lawyers anymore.

Heh. It must be nice to have such means at your disposal.

8 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:11:58pm

This is interesting. If 99 percent of this group does not control Anonymous™ while 1 percent controls same group it's a mirror of the 1 percent that control the wealth in society at large. Thus, Anonymous™ (or anarchy) is a reflection of the establishment.

There were always be kingmakers no matter how much why try to fool ourselves otherwise. This includes the anarchist sub-culture.

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:15:32pm

re: #8 Gus 802

This is interesting. If 99 percent of this group does not control Anonymous™ while 1 percent controls same group it's a mirror of the 1 percent that control the wealth in society at large. Thus, Anonymous™ (or anarchy) is a reflection of the establishment.

There were always be kingmakers no matter how much why try to fool ourselves otherwise. This includes the anarchist sub-culture.

I suspect they started out as true believers but once the elite noticed they had an army of willing lemmings for cannon fodder things changed. I;m sure the Soviet leaders sat around eating caviar convinced they were good communists. Humans have an enormous capacity for self delusion.

10 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:16:14pm

re: #4 Barrett Brown

Curiosity killed the cat, but why don't you have to hire lawyers any more?

11 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:17:14pm

re: #10 Floral Giraffe

Curiosity killed the cat, but why don't you have to hire lawyers any more?

Probably wealthy benefactors supply these services for him.

12 researchok  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:17:45pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I suspect they started out as true believers but once the elite noticed they had an army of willing lemmings for cannon fodder things changed. I;m sure the Soviet leaders sat around eating caviar convinced they were good communists. Humans have an enormous capacity for self delusion.

The first true believer (s) in any endeavor see themselves as controlling the group. In fact, they see it there right.

Think Wilfrid Bion and his study of group dynamics.

13 researchok  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:18:38pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Probably wealthy benefactors supply these services for him.

Ah, to live in safety by living vicariously through others.

14 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:19:19pm

re: #10 Floral Giraffe

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

15 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:21:19pm

re: #14 Barrett Brown

Actually, I don't even know why I'm bothering to answer when Kilgore Trout clearly knows everything about me, including my ongoing surveillance on the part of the FBI. Kilgore, can you please continue to take further questions on my behalf?

16 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:21:55pm

re: #14 Barrett Brown

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

Can you put me on the dole too? How much does professional anarchism pay these days. I can't produce the wall of text gibberish that you do but I can probably be a pretty good anarchist as long as the checks clear. Hook Me up!

17 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:23:02pm

re: #15 Barrett Brown

Kilgore, can you please continue to take further questions on my behalf?


Sure, no problem. I was right about the wealthy benefactors so I think I've got this thing pegged.

18 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:23:25pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout

I suspect they started out as true believers but once the elite noticed they had an army of willing lemmings for cannon fodder things changed. I;m sure the Soviet leaders sat around eating caviar convinced they were good communists. Humans have an enormous capacity for self delusion.

Which happened in all Communist countries. The political leaders become the ruling elite and live the life of the bourgeois. It's a hierarchy that is borne of human evolution and human behavior or societies.

It is a bit interesting that most American anarchist movements are dominated by white males.

19 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:23:40pm

re: #15 Barrett Brown

Because, there are other interested parties, trying to glean information.
At least, that is what I am trying to do.
I don't want to ask KT.
I want to talk to BB.

20 Velvet Elvis  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:23:48pm

I was an anarchist in high school. I nerdy one too. I actually read a lot of theory. There is a big difference between anarchism and nihilism.

In an anarchist collective there would be no objection to a sort of executive council helping coordinate the management of the community. There would be no barriers to membership on the community however, and serving on it would be more of a civic duty, like jury duty, than any kind of empowerment.

Squabbles about if things like if literacy could be made a requirement to serve have a lot to do with why I quickly gave up on anarchists.

The argument could certainly be made for security precautions barring membership though. Most anarchism is collectivist in nature and the good of the collective can sometimes be a good outweighing the needs of the individual.

21 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:28:40pm

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Floral, you may e-mail me at barriticus@gmail.com or follow me at The League of Ordinary Gentlemen if you would like further information, and I will answer your questions to the extent that I can do so at this time.

22 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:37:43pm

re: #21 Barrett Brown

Put you into the mailbox, Sir.

23 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:53:11pm

re: #14 Barrett Brown

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

Supporting anarchy is important and you get assistance from supporters? Do tell!

24 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 7:53:49pm

re: #5 Killgore Trout

Great song, off a great album.

25 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:02:36pm
26 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:07:40pm
27 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:09:43pm

re: #25 Gus 802

[Video]

Interestingly, there's a "Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon" kind of tie-in between that song and the subject of the current main thread, the common theme being Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. Ice T voiced the character of "Madd Dog" in that game, while "Cult of Personality" was on the soundtrack.

28 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:13:22pm

re: #23 NJDhockeyfan

Supporting anarchy is important and you get assistance from supporters? Do tell!

Of course you aren't going to get an answer to that. It's probably a combination of wealthy aristocratic ideological loons like those who are hosting Assange in their castle and various anti-American interests from the Russian mobsters and Chinese government. Since the interests funding his illegal anti-American activities are in direct contrast to his anarchist gimmick he's not going to disclose the information openly. Secrecy is important sometimes.

29 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:15:54pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Of course you aren't going to get an answer to that. It's probably a combination of wealthy aristocratic ideological loons like those who are hosting Assange in their castle and various anti-American interests from the Russian mobsters and Chinese government. Since the interests funding his illegal anti-American activities are in direct contrast to his anarchist gimmick he's not going to disclose the information openly. Secrecy is important sometimes.

Even though doing that is the same sort of thing anti-American front groups used to do. But I've just repeated you.

30 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:16:37pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Excuse me. What illegal activities are you accusing me of having perpetrated?

31 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:17:06pm

Who pays for anarchists' lawyers?
/plural possessive inquiring mind

32 kreyagg  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:17:30pm

Killgore Trout: Sounding more like Glenn Beck with every post.

Maybe the Masons or the Tri-Lateral Commission are supporting BB as well?

33 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:17:53pm

Heh. Not sure I would take advice on the subject of honesty from someone who supports and runs cover for a group that regularly engages in criminal activity.

Nah, strike that. I am absolutely sure I wouldn't take such advice from that kind of person.

34 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:18:05pm

re: #32 kreyagg

Killgore Trout: Sounding more like Glenn Beck with every post.

Maybe the Masons or the Tri-Lateral Commission are supporting BB as well?

Fuck you.

35 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:18:54pm

Want some anarchy? I've got it in me.

Awe. The anarchist doesn't like me saying fuck you.

36 kreyagg  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:19:49pm

I suspect that Anarchists can object to rude behavior too

37 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:20:30pm

re: #36 kreyagg

I suspect that Anarchists can object to rude behavior too

Sez the guy with -82 Karma.

38 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:20:56pm

re: #30 Barrett Brown

Excuse me. What illegal activities are you accusing me of having perpetrated?

Oh, noes! Is the Anarchist Aristocratic anti-American Legal Defense fund headed my way?

39 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:21:08pm

re: #35 Gus 802

Want some anarchy? I've got it in me.

Awe. The anarchist doesn't like me saying fuck you.

Anarchists don't like cursing dude... Molotov cocktails, batons, and rocks are fine though.

40 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:21:21pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Sez the guy with -82 Karma.

Lulz

41 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:21:46pm

re: #39 NJDhockeyfan

Anarchists don't like cursing dude... Molotov cocktails, batons, and rocks are fine though.

Yeah. Anything where MOMMY and DADDY can bail them out.

42 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:21:54pm

re: #32 kreyagg

Killgore Trout: Sounding more like Glenn Beck with every post.

Maybe the Masons or the Tri-Lateral Commission are supporting BB as well?

Kreyagg: Finding lame analogies with which to dismiss Killgore's legitimate objections to toxic political philosophy.

43 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:22:18pm

re: #30 Barrett Brown

Never mind.
LOL!

44 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:22:23pm

re: #40 Killgore Trout

Lulz

That's right man! Fucking aye! I'm an anarchist tonight and I'm doing it for the lulz!

Word!

45 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:23:33pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Oh, noes! Is the Anarchist Aristocratic anti-American Legal Defense fund headed my way?

[Video]

Billionaires for anarchy!

46 Barrett Brown  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:23:53pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

"Kilgore," I am asking you again to explain why you have claimed in a public forum that I have perpetrated illegal activities.

47 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:24:11pm

re: #41 Gus 802

Yeah. Anything where MOMMY and DADDY can bail them out.

That's why there are no "black bloc" anarchists is New York City. If they tried that shit there, they'd get their asses kicked by the NYPD and wind up serving a nice little term in Riker's.

48 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:24:13pm

I gotta lawyer up here....

49 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:24:53pm

re: #46 Barrett Brown

"Kilgore," I am asking you again to explain why you have claimed in a public forum that I have perpetrated illegal activities.

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.

50 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:24:59pm

re: #47 Dark_Falcon

That's why there are no "black bloc" anarchists is New York City. If they tried that shit there, they'd get their asses kicked by the NYPD and wind up serving a nice little term in Riker's.

Image: article-1337874-0C6E3F57000005DC-104_634x435.jpg

On the right.

51 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:25:51pm

Mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy! The law won't let me do whatever I want to do! -- Anarchist

52 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:26:23pm

re: #46 Barrett Brown

"Kilgore," I am asking you again to explain why you have claimed in a public forum that I have perpetrated illegal activities.

Wasting your time & energy on this, Sir.

53 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:26:26pm

re: #50 Gus 802

Image: article-1337874-0C6E3F57000005DC-104_634x435.jpg

On the right.

Who is that supposed to be?

54 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:26:44pm

re: #53 Dark_Falcon

Who is that supposed to be?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

55 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:27:00pm

re: #52 Floral Giraffe

Wasting your time & energy on this, Sir.

Thank you for that, Floral.

56 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:27:36pm

re: #46 Barrett Brown

"Kilgore," I am asking you again to explain why you have claimed in a public forum that I have perpetrated illegal activities.

You certainly support it, that is very clear.

57 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:27:38pm

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

58 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:30:06pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

Do you have a lawyer?

59 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:30:44pm

re: #58 NJDhockeyfan

Do you have a lawyer?

No, I'm bluffing. Do you think it worked?

60 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:33:36pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

No, I'm bluffing. Do you think it worked?

If he believes what anarchist assholes tell him or what he reads on al-Jezeera, he'll believe anything.

61 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:35:47pm

re: #57 Killgore Trout

There are a great number of people who agree with me and believe that the work I am doing is important. They provide me with various forms of assistance.

Channelling Walter, I see.

62 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:38:17pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Aw man. :( And I was totally buying into it, too!

63 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:44:20pm

re: #30 Barrett Brown

Serious answer: Of course you could blow be out of the water by disclosing who is paying for your legal harrasment of those who speak out against your douchebaggery on the internet. It's an easy win for you. Go for it!

64 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:48:58pm

re: #63 Killgore Trout

Serious answer: Of course you could blow be out of the water by disclosing who is paying for your legal harrasment of those who speak out against your douchebaggery on the internet. It's an easy win for you. Go for it!

Yeah, Barrett, what are you hiding? I thought you pro-Wikileaks guys were all about openess.

65 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:55:01pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, Barrett, what are you hiding? I thought you pro-Wikileaks guys were all about openess.

Openness for for thee, not for me.
~ Anarchist Creed

66 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:55:19pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

Aw man. :( And I was totally buying into it, too!

Sucker!

67 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 8:58:37pm

re: #64 Dark_Falcon

♫ I-rony, is such a lonely word ♪

68 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:01:08pm

Seekrit Anrkist Leegal Harasment Fund iz Seekkrit!
/Shhhhh

69 Fenris  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:01:14pm

Apropo Coldblood, what baffles me the most about Anonymous these days is they're so hell-bent on making statements representing the group about how no one can represent the group.

70 kreyagg  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:02:21pm

re: #37 Gus 802

Sez the guy with -82 Karma.

Being unpopular doesn't make one rude, though rudeness may contribute to unpopularity. Most of my down dings are basically insisting that all arguments based on religious beliefs are naturally vacant.

71 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:08:45pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

♫ I-rony, is such a lonely word ♪

♫ Anarchists are so un-true.
I-rony, is is far to often heard,
but mostly when the hypocrites spew.♪

72 kreyagg  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:15:37pm

re: #32 kreyagg

Killgore Trout: Sounding more like Glenn Beck with every post.

Maybe the Masons or the Tri-Lateral Commission are supporting BB as well?

I thought I was just being funny

73 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:16:17pm

re: #72 kreyagg

I thought I was just being funny

[Link: youtu.be...]

Then stop worrying and come upstairs.

74 Gus  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:57:27pm

Hey Ryannon. Come join us upstairs.

75 ryannon  Thu, Dec 16, 2010 9:59:28pm

woof.

76 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 12:11:30am

Wow, so much bullshit and deception…

Of course anarchists are not opposed to organization. There have been anarchist armies, anarchist unions, anarchist political parties, etc.

77 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 12:15:00am

That Gabriella Coleman has an interesting text up, btw: The Dramatic Face of Wikileaks

78 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 12:28:51am

Her blog posts on Anonymous

Closing this with mentioning that of course there anarchists organizations and of course these can have leaders. That does not mean they are not anarchic. What matters is the question how the organization provides for access to and exclusion from a leadership position: that process has to be an anarchic one.

79 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 3:43:29am

re: #28 Killgore Trout

This is getting a little silly. There's no reason to believe anything Barrett has done is illegal.

The above article does match up with my experience of anon, which is that the leaders are not spontaneous emergences but forceful personalities with some cohesion to them.

This sort of organization is not anarchic, as 000G points out. The lack of transparency about the leadership alone prevents that. Some might argue that Anon is truly anarchic but is on the defensive and thus can't engage in transparency due to the treat of the authorities. That they 'need' to be defensive may well be true; that that means they remain anarchic is not. Without consensus, collaboration, or some visible way for the leaders to arise, it's not any respectable version of anarchy.

And yes, I think there are respectable versions of anarchy. Like this one:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

80 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 3:45:50am

Nice. Limp dick jousting at it's finest.

81 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 4:03:47am

re: #79 Obdicut

This sort of organization is not anarchic, as 000G points out. The lack of transparency about the leadership alone prevents that.

I am surprised to find out that I pointed out that it was not anarchic. I don't think I did that. And I would argue that lack of transparency in the formation process of hierarchical structures does not neccessarily mean that it lacks organizational anarchy, provided that nobody is effectively forcefully supressing information in order to establish or maintain a specific hierarchy: Anarchists working illegaly underground often have to keep matters of their hierarchy formation process secret, it does not automatically make them non-anarchic.

82 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 4:12:27am

re: #81 000G

If the leadership is chosen in the way that the article says-- invitation only by already existing leaders-- then that is in no way anarchic. As you said:

What matters is the question how the organization provides for access to and exclusion from a leadership position

A group of leaders choosing the new leaders is in no way anarchic.

Anarchists working illegaly underground often have to keep matters of their hierarchy formation process secret, it does not automatically make them non-anarchic.

I would say that it does, if that secret is also kept from most members of the organization.

83 Steve Dutch  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 7:54:49am

Isn't it ironic that these people who labor for "openness" operate under dark secrecy?

84 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 9:36:03am

re: #82 Obdicut

If the leadership is chosen in the way that the article says-- invitation only by already existing leaders-- then that is in no way anarchic. As you said:

A group of leaders choosing the new leaders is in no way anarchic.

I would say that it does, if that secret is also kept from most members of the organization.

Okay, that point flew by me. I agree with you.

85 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 9:41:57am

From what I can see, this non-organization of non-entities is actually more closely related to a monarchy, with a secret star chamber that makes decisions for the peasants to carry out.

86 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 1:45:51pm

re: #46 Barrett Brown

"Kilgore," I am asking you again to explain why you have claimed in a public forum that I have perpetrated illegal activities.

this is really a hell of a thread, isn't it o_o

87 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 2:06:17pm

Shit.

I missed the thread. I was busy yesterday feeding the capitalist oligarchy that enslaves us all in a police state by having a business meeting in LA.

88 SpaceJesus  Fri, Dec 17, 2010 2:19:05pm

re: #85 Charles


clearly it is an oligarhy


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