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16 comments

2 Irenicum  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 5:31:50pm

Wow WUB, this is excellent. Thanks for posting this!

3 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 5:34:30pm

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

that's a great article

4 jc717  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 6:14:12pm

Well said. That's why it's easier for many people to accept Adam, Eve, and Noah rather than evolution. That's why conviction and going with the gut is preferable to many over nuanced views with shades of gray.
Thinking is hard, and in our society it often not respected or appreciated.
In many ways it's also an extension of our increasingly anti-intellectual culture.

5 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 6:39:07pm

re: #4 jc717

you're bumming me out with your choice of avatar, dude :/

6 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 7:34:35pm

You used two examples of right-wing hot-button issues, but I hope you mean that it cuts both ways. I'm not one of those "but everyone does it!" types, but the fringes (and, sadly, too much of the non-fringe) of both ends of the political spectrum engage in this kind of "political discourse".

The one-and two-word "talking points" of the right may be more inane, but both are equally insane.

7 lazardo  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 8:16:53pm

re: #6 ClaudeMonet

I suppose the primary difference between liberal and conservative craziness is that more often than not, the former have a valid issue they're basing their craziness off of, while the conservatives outright deny that the issue exists or makes something up altogether.

8 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 8:40:07pm

re: #7 lazardo

Right. The Left can be annoying as hell (I cal them manic-progressives), but I do know what they are complaining about most of the time. I don't get the Right, right now. They are just making up shit and believing things that have no basis in reality. It's one thing to be made about the world as it is, it's another to be creating your own nightmares and stressing out about that.

9 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 8:54:03pm

Well, WUB.
I understand exactly what you're saying.

But all too often, a person's knowledge about another person's general political stance will lead to Person A not listening to or reading or even trying to understand Person B's points, instead dismissing those points as "tribal" what-the-fuck-ever.

It is possible, it is seriously possible, for a person to have a point of view that they've come to from thinking about things, and that point of view is different from yours. That does NOT automatically make the person a "tribal" thinker, and it is condescending, demeaning and just plain rude to dismiss the person as such.

I will read whatever anyone says; reading different points of view is how I can sharpen (or even change, when necessary) my own thoughts on a matter. I will do this even when a person' POV is "tribal" or partisan in nature; we're all partisan in some way, and that is not a bad thing.

One can lay out an argument, either factual or an argument based on one's own experience is also acceptable, and try to persuade; or you can be flippant and dismiss the person's different POV, which persuades no one, leads nowhere.

We each make a choice in how we handle this stuff.

10 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 9:31:58pm

re: #8 moderatelyradicalliberal

Right. The Left can be annoying as hell (I cal them manic-progressives), but I do know what they are complaining about most of the time. I don't get the Right, right now. They are just making up shit and believing things that have no basis in reality. It's one thing to be made about the world as it is, it's another to be creating your own nightmares and stressing out about that.

"manic-progressives"--I love it. I hope I remember it for future use, along the lines of telling my never-happy ultra-lib friends (yeah, I have a few like that), "Will you please stop being manic-progressives for a day or two and enjoy the gains you've made?"

11 moderatelyradicalliberal  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 9:41:42pm

re: #10 ClaudeMonet

They won't do it. Both extremes see doom and gloom everywhere. It's just so much on the right today is made up doom and gloom.

12 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 9:54:09pm

re: #11 moderatelyradicalliberal

They won't do it. Both extremes see doom and gloom everywhere. It's just so much on the right today is made up doom and gloom.

In the days of my childhood (the Sixties), both the left and the right had their gloom-and-doomers, but also their optimists, some of whom were willing to talk to each other and on rare occasions work together for the common good. Alas, they seem to all be gone now.

Or is it me? Have I become so inured with, used to, and blinded by the politics-as-battleground, there's-no-such-thing-as-compromise, talking-to-the-other-side-equals-treason we've had since the Seventies that I can't see the (few?) optimists anymore?

13 Alexzander  Sun, Jan 2, 2011 10:36:43pm

Thank you for writing this WUB. The move from a genuine discourse concerning "philosophies about organizing society" to this national soap opera is not only disheartening but dangerous. Lets all try and keep an open mind when others are trying to honestly discourse about how to best organize society.

14 What, me worry?  Mon, Jan 3, 2011 7:09:57am

Good post and good morning!

I think part of it is how we're wired, almost ingrained in our DNA. The need for competition as well as control and power.

The other part is lack of critical thinking skills. The ability to be inquisitive, prudent when making judgments, trustful of reason, open-minded, and honest with ourselves and others, particularly when facing biases. Most people don't have it. I think we fail to teach it and that's probably purposeful because the people who push Part #1 (control and power) are threatened by it.

15 Michael Orion Powell  Mon, Jan 3, 2011 7:43:32am

Criticizing tribalism is a hopeless endeavor. Both those who take an evolutionary point of view and those that take a more religious point of view (is that a word?) and everyone in between have largely come to the agreement that man has been divided among itself for a long time, forgetting his common beginnings. This isn't really a bad thing, it's just the way it is. When it becomes bad is when groups impede on and exploit one another.

16 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 3, 2011 12:55:33pm

re: #14 marjoriemoon

Good post and good morning!

I think part of it is how we're wired, almost ingrained in our DNA. The need for competition as well as control and power.

The other part is lack of critical thinking skills. The ability to be inquisitive, prudent when making judgments, trustful of reason, open-minded, and honest with ourselves and others, particularly when facing biases. Most people don't have it. I think we fail to teach it and that's probably purposeful because the people who push Part #1 (control and power) are threatened by it.

This is really it. We can't eliminate tribalism, but we can at least attempt to fight it


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