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1 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 12:17:09pm

Yep, home schooling is where this crap comes from. Outlaw it or regulate the crazy out of it (impossible).

2 Locker  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 12:33:55pm

That was great and I nominate it wholeheartedly for the front page. Thanks man, great link.

3 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:20:01pm

re: #1 SpaceJesus

Yep, home schooling is where this crap comes from. Outlaw it or regulate the crazy out of it (impossible).

Disagree completely. Homeschooling is a great civil liberty to have, especially as an alternative to incompetent public schools and unaffordable private schools.

Also, Frank Schaeffer reminds me of Tammy Bruce. They've both been so incredibly traumatized by their former ideological home that they have just become vicious against it.

4 theheat  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:20:30pm

Holy crap, I'm loving this. It's like he crawled inside my head with a bull horn to broadcast my thoughts.

5 theheat  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:22:47pm

re: #3 000G

They've both been so incredibly traumatized by their former ideological home that they have just become vicious against it.

How is speaking the truth being vicious, unless it slays your unicorn?

6 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:29:11pm

re: #3 000G

Yes, i have to disagree with part of what you said also. I don't think there is anything wrong in calling out the extremists in your own religion. And also, i am an atheist, but Frank Schaeffer is one of the reasons i have always maintained a high level of respect for all religions.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:37:00pm

re: #5 theheat

How is speaking the truth being vicious, unless it slays your unicorn?

Dunno about "the truth". I know that, like Miss Bruce, he does a lot of psychologizing of his enemy that quite frankly I don't think he is qualified for and seems to be based mostly on his own resentments.

Btw, I don't have a unicorn to protect. I think religion should stay out of politics, true the principles of secularism. So should zealous atheism, for that matter. The United States Constitution renders Schaefder's criticism politically irrelevant anyhow. So he is against stupid people. Good for him, but in a free country, people have a right to be stupid (so long as they don't infringe upon anyone else's rights).

I also happen to believe that wanting to absolutely reconcile religion with facts, as he seems to suggest, is stupid. Religion is always counterfactual.

8 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:38:26pm

re: #2 Locker

That was great and I nominate it wholeheartedly for the front page. Thanks man, great link.

Enh. Like the Palin for President site, it's old. The Youtube video was uploaded in September 2009…

9 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 1:48:12pm

This YouTube comment sums it up pretty good for me:

So saying someone is the Antichrist makes you crazy, but saying there is an invisible man in the sky is totally sane. Of course.

And it's true, if you wanted to maintain a completely rational position on religious issues, it would probably be an atheist, agnostic or ignostic one, not a religious one (nevermind the fact that rationalism runs into stuff like the Münchhausen Trilemma or epistemological totalitarianism as well, cf. Feyerabend, but I am not getting into that).

10 Locker  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 3:23:10pm

re: #8 000G

Enh. Like the Palin for President site, it's old. The Youtube video was uploaded in September 2009…

I don't remember needing your permission to suggest. Additionally your comments in this thread reek of defensiveness. Why else would you pretend that "religious beliefs" are the same thing as "rejecting facts as a matter of faith". You are making a false connection and then arguing against a statement the speaker did not make.

I'm quite sure you can understand the difference between people who are reasonable and those whole's belief system compels them to reject all logic, information or evidence which is contrary to, questions or sheds poor light on that belief system.

11 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 4:07:04pm

re: #3 000G

It isn't the school system's fault at all. It's the parents at home, as well as the kids themselves, not taking school seriously. Home schooling does nothing but provide a front for parents who don't want their kids to integrate or who want to abuse their children both physically and mentally.

12 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 4:21:03pm

re: #11 SpaceJesus

It isn't the school system's fault at all. It's the parents at home, as well as the kids themselves, not taking school seriously. Home schooling does nothing but provide a front for parents who don't want their kids to integrate or who want to abuse their children both physically and mentally.

My friend, that is a broad brush you paint with.

While no one can negate the tremendous importance of parents being involved in all aspects of their kids education regardless of the location they are educated, there is a lot to be desired in early childhood public school education. For those who are interested in truly unleashing the creative potential of their kids, homeschooling is one approach. If we couldn't afford Waldorf education, we would most certainly be homeschooling till 4th grade.

And there are plenty of opportunities for home schooled kids to socialize with their peers.

13 Max  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 5:41:03pm

I might have to check out his book.

14 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 6:47:36pm

re: #12 Jeff In Ohio

You put your kids in accelerated classes then. Make them do honors or AP.

I find it hard to believe that someone who cannot afford a decent a private school can somehow afford tutors for advanced math, the sciences, foreign language, and music 5 days a week.

15 HappyWarrior  Sun, Jan 16, 2011 11:04:44pm

re: #1 SpaceJesus

Yep, home schooling is where this crap comes from. Outlaw it or regulate the crazy out of it (impossible).

I don't know about banning homeschooling SJ but I do share your discomfort with the movement. What I don't like I will say though is homeschooling students getting to participate in things like sports in the local community. Way, I see it, you should be part of the school community if you want to partake in things like sports. And yes I am criticizing what allowed Tim TEbow to play hjigh school ball and I don't care. What happened there wasn't right.

16 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:43:19am

re: #11 SpaceJesus

It isn't the school system's fault at all. It's the parents at home, as well as the kids themselves, not taking school seriously.

Right. There are no incompetent public schools anywhere, ever. My bad

Home schooling does nothing but provide a front for parents who don't want their kids to integrate or who want to abuse their children both physically and mentally.

Right. Homeschoolers are basically all anti-social child-abusers.

You are a fool.

17 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:45:06am

re: #10 Locker

Why else would you pretend that "religious beliefs" are the same thing as "rejecting facts as a matter of faith".

Huh? I wrote no such thing. You should read again what I actually wrote, then come back and debate me, not a strawman.

18 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:47:24am

re: #14 SpaceJesus

I find it hard to believe that someone who cannot afford a decent a private school can somehow afford tutors for advanced math, the sciences, foreign language, and music 5 days a week.

I know it's a bizarre notion to you, but some parents still remember the stuff they learned when they were young themselves and with a little refresher are perfectly capable of effectively teaching their children school material.

19 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 1:49:28am

re: #16 000G

I apologize for that last remark. Wasn't called for.

20 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 3:28:50am

re: #3 000G

Disagree completely. Homeschooling is a great civil liberty to have, especially as an alternative to incompetent public schools and unaffordable private schools.

Also, Frank Schaeffer reminds me of Tammy Bruce. They've both been so incredibly traumatized by their former ideological home that they have just become vicious against it.

I'm cool with homeschooling if you can regulate it and it costs some money to do it, that then goes to regulating it. As in, the parents are subrodinate to social workers and must continually prove their ability to teach.

21 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 3:29:17am

re: #14 SpaceJesus

You put your kids in accelerated classes then. Make them do honors or AP.

I find it hard to believe that someone who cannot afford a decent a private school can somehow afford tutors for advanced math, the sciences, foreign language, and music 5 days a week.

Or honors AND ap ;-)

22 laZardo  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 3:53:30am

My thoughts on homeschooling would be summarized in a classic episode of South Park. Also, the only thing keeping me from denouncing religious-affiliated institutions is that they're currently still a 'choice' (unlike here in The P.I., where most of the good colleges are affiliated with some Catholic order and include mandatory "retreats" as graduation requirements.)

With that in mind, here's some semi-OT Ronnie James Dio.

23 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 6:05:12am

re: #20 WindUpBird

I'm cool with homeschooling if you can regulate it and it costs some money to do it, that then goes to regulating it. As in, the parents are subrodinate to social workers and must continually prove their ability to teach.

Actually, there is an argument to be made that homeschooling is less expensive to the general taxpayer than public schooling: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

And furthermore, AFAIK there have been some Supreme Court cases that struck down some States' requirements for homeschoolers to have teaching certificates. I am up-in-the-air about that question myself, but the legal situation differs a lot from state to state. Advocate groups that provide decent information on current legislation: [Link: www.hslda.org...] and [Link: homeschoollegaladvantage.com...]

24 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 6:08:33am

Oops, the hslda link should have been this: [Link: www.hslda.org...]

25 Jeff In Ohio  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:37:06am

re: #14 SpaceJesus

You put your kids in accelerated classes then. Make them do honors or AP.

I find it hard to believe that someone who cannot afford a decent a private school can somehow afford tutors for advanced math, the sciences, foreign language, and music 5 days a week.

I honestly have no idea what your talking about. Who puts their 2nd and 3rd graders in AP classes? And it's been a while since I had to take AP math and science, but it used to be based on grades, not desire. Tudors? Have you looked at math requirements for k-6th grade? They barely break algebra and don't even touch organic chemistry or physics.

Your angry about religious based homeschooling. I get that. Unfortunately, while religion and homeschooling aren't mutually exclusive, not all home schooling springs from a desire to inculcate monotheism in a child and making a broad accusation based on a righteous indignation of religious idiocy, which I agree with, misses why some parents are truly unsatisfied with not only early childhood education in American public schools, but the emphasis on rote learning and book science instead of development of critical thinking skills and field science in public elementary schools.

26 What, me worry?  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 9:37:25am

re: #23 000G

Actually, there is an argument to be made that homeschooling is less expensive to the general taxpayer than public schooling: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

And furthermore, AFAIK there have been some Supreme Court cases that struck down some States' requirements for homeschoolers to have teaching certificates. I am up-in-the-air about that question myself, but the legal situation differs a lot from state to state. Advocate groups that provide decent information on current legislation: [Link: www.hslda.org...] and [Link: homeschoollegaladvantage.com...]

When my g/f homeschooled her daughter some 15 years ago, the only curriculum she could obtain was from Christian outlets. My g/f is agnostic. She really liked the curriculum and simply discarded any Christian references. She did comment to me that it annoyed her that this was her only choice. Her daughter, btw, now in her 30's, has a lucrative career as a horse woman, training and breaking race and show horses.

I don't see how the government would ever put out material on homeschooling or specifically encourage it, but it would be nice if the material could come from another, non-religious source. I also think my g/f's experience is not usual, but I don't know.

27 What, me worry?  Mon, Jan 17, 2011 10:01:18am

re: #3 000G

Disagree completely. Homeschooling is a great civil liberty to have, especially as an alternative to incompetent public schools and unaffordable private schools.

Also, Frank Schaeffer reminds me of Tammy Bruce. They've both been so incredibly traumatized by their former ideological home that they have just become vicious against it.

Btw, I agree with the first part. I think SpaceJesus has got his anger against religion too mixed up in his ideas of homeschooling. The two don't HAVE to go together. It would take some ex-educators maybe (?) to turn that around - put out some non-religious curriculum. Emmmie should get in on on this discussion.

However, I think Schaeffer is right on, even through his obvious rage. I don't blame him really. He's been lied to by everyone. I'm not fond of the fact that he started the piece dissing his mother, who was probably raised in the same atmosphere as he. He should respect his momma even if he's mad at her.

He thinks there's no hope for evangelicals so he wants to "leave them in the hills". The problem, though, is they aren't in the hills. They're mainstream. When a significant portion of the country doesn't accept evolutionary science, there's a big problem. I think we're past the point of ignoring them which is essentially what he says he wants to do. I might argue, even, that ignoring them brought this problem on.

Confronting and pressuring the Republican party to denounce the crazies within the evangelical movement is the best way to deal with it, IMO.

28 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Tue, Jan 18, 2011 3:18:35pm

re: #25 Jeff In Ohio

Your angry about religious based homeschooling. I get that. Unfortunately, while religion and homeschooling aren't mutually exclusive, not all home schooling springs from a desire to inculcate monotheism in a child and making a broad accusation based on a righteous indignation of religious idiocy, which I agree with, misses why some parents are truly unsatisfied with not only early childhood education in American public schools, but the emphasis on rote learning and book science instead of development of critical thinking skills and field science in public elementary schools.

I agree completely. And then there are also children with behavioral problems based on mental conditions. Parents often know how to properly interact with these and the average teacher often does not. Special ed is, for a wide variety of reasons, often not the way to go in these cases.


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