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This what relentless campaigning against science, the ‘elites’, and intellectuals gets us. We don’t value engineers and scientists. We are losing our prominence in the world.
19 comments
1 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sun, Jan 23, 2011 12:13:49pm |
Global leadership is not a birthright. Despite what many Americans believe, our nation does not possess an innate knack for greatness. Greatness must be worked for and won by each new generation. Right now that is not happening. But we still have time. If we place the emphasis we should on education, research and innovation we can lead the world in the decades to come. But the only way to ensure we remain great tomorrow is to increase our investment in science and engineering today.
Sorry, but pandering to fundamentalist zealots and far-right reactionaries seems to be far more important.
I wish I was being sarcastic.
| 2 |
APox Sun, Jan 23, 2011 1:20:21pm |
"U.S. consumers spend significantly more on potato chips than the U.S. government devotes to energy R&D."
Jesus, no wonder U.S. consumers were so angry when SunChip released the environmentally friendly bag that made too much noise.
Oh, and I find this article offensive... Everyone knows America didn't become great through the power of man, it was in fact the grace of God that we were given our technical prowess. And obviously our country has fallen from his grace, and thus our ability to compete is on the decline. The only logical solution is to teach Christianity in school, ban evolution education, ban abortions, ban anything with Gays in it and get back to our forward thinking roots!
/
| 3 |
nines09 Sun, Jan 23, 2011 1:21:47pm |
We are being sold 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound bag and being told it is a great deal.
| 4 |
shutdown Sun, Jan 23, 2011 1:57:20pm |
Unless there is a strong and severe change in tack, the US will be an export platform for Chinese-designed goods in about 30 years. "Made in America" will have all the cachet "Made in China" does today. We'll be manufacturing Chinese green technology at $5.99 p/h.
| 5 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 23, 2011 2:57:27pm |
From the article:
Global leadership is not a birthright.
Obviously the writer is unaware that America is Exceptional and thus chosen to lead the world for ever....
Anyway, as for despising scientists and engineers, here is an article in the SDUT website from yesterday:
Climate initiative gives Scripps global goals
And here is a sample of the nature of the comments it has garnered:
plomaman 19 hours ago
I cant help but be suspect of an institutions goals and the sanctity of its reporting on greenhouse gases when that same institution exists in a bankrupt state and depends in part on grants from federal government sources... among others. Especially when that government is currently being run by a president that while running for office fervently said that if he's elected the seas will stop rising....
After all we've seen what lengths research facilities and their renowned scientists will go to in order to secure more funding for their projects.... climategate 2 ...---
BajaLaJolla 23 hours ago
The pseudo-scientists at Scripps should be ashamed of themselves for this theft from taxpayer's pocketbooks. But being good state socialists, they despise not only the Scientific Method, but those who pay their fat salaries.However, it is good to see by the comments here that the public now overwhelming understands that CAGW is a massive scientific and financial fraud. Maybe after the next election gets rid of the eco-fascists in the Senate and White House, we can start recovering from this madness.
And so on. These local cranks could go up to LaJolla and take a seminar or go to exhibits and learn what the truth is, but they would rather pour their hate on scientists because, well, that is what they do.
| 6 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 23, 2011 3:02:02pm |
BTW, I rather don't like Forbes magazine as it has a definite history of running a rather hostile agenda towards science. This article by Augustine is as much there for attacking "education" (meaning the establishment, implying the teacher unions) as it is the general lack of enthusiasm among the population for science or engineering.
It's really not the teachers fault this nation, which has been so wealthy for so long that intellectual laziness beget by copious toys and distractions is ubiquitous, are faced with students who are in their classes just to be baby-sat.
| 7 |
Obdicut Sun, Jan 23, 2011 3:10:00pm |
re: #6 freetoken
True, the article seemed very schitzo in that, while admitting that the problem is a cultural one-- in that we don't consider scientists and engineers to be very high-status-- it then blamed the educational system, rather than the reasons why the education system are the way they are.
| 8 |
lostlakehiker Sun, Jan 23, 2011 7:22:43pm |
re: #7 Obdicut
True, the article seemed very schitzo in that, while admitting that the problem is a cultural one-- in that we don't consider scientists and engineers to be very high-status-- it then blamed the educational system, rather than the reasons why the education system are the way they are.
Cultural problems tend to be intractable. The decisions that lie within the scope of any school board's authority, any state authority, and so on, are decisions about how to certify teachers, what to pay for, what textbooks to use, and so on.
To whatever extent the problem lies elsewhere, to that exact extent, school boards and states are stuck. They must address the only part of the problem they can do anything about.
The Washington DC schools are bad for many reasons, some of them cultural. But the voters made a decision for bad schools and then worse ones, by electing the wrong mayor and firing the right school board chair.
Texas has the wrong school board too, even though that ridiculous dentist fellow is gone. Neither party or political wing is getting this one right. Expressions of alarm transmit faster to school boards, though, than they do to "the culture" in general.
So yes, I blame the school system. Its leaders have not held up their end of the work that is needed. They have chased after both RW and LW fads. They have shirked the hard work of setting standards and measuring results.
| 9 |
Steve Dutch Sun, Jan 23, 2011 7:32:44pm |
The anti-intellectualism comes from both sides. On the right, of course, it's denial of evolution and climate change and general hostility toward intellectuals for insisting on them.
On the left, it's political correctness, in some cases actually leading to intimidation of faculty and students for challenging liberal social agendas. It's emphasizing self esteem over doing things worthy of esteem. It's dismissing achievement as "elitist." It's "student-centered learning" rather than "learning-centered students." It's telling them there is no objective reality and science is merely a social construct. On the whole, I think the Left is worse. Surely doubting the existence of reality has to be the ultimate anti-intellectualism.
And for John Q. Entitlement, it's complaining about his kid's tuition while simultaneously refusing to support more public spending on education. It's complaining that his kids aren't learning when he hasn't opened a book in years. It's wanting free technology and medical care. It's being willing to spend half a billion on a new stadium while voting down school bonds for a tenth as much to fix broken windows and leaking roofs.
| 10 |
Bob Levin Sun, Jan 23, 2011 9:58:52pm |
I think the problem is deeper than an anti-intellectualism. I think our educational system was designed for an age that has passed. I believe it was initially designed as a means to take care of children, once child labor became illegal. It was designed for a technologically primitive culture and economy. That's the reason so many folks can go through high school and become the anti-intellectual right wing and the politically correct left. They all went through the school system.
On the one hand, we have so much work that needs to be done. On the other hand, we have massive unemployment. First politician to get the puzzle pieces to fit wins.
| 11 |
APox Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:19:35pm |
re: #9 SteveDutch
Yeah ... Political correctness... That's what's failing kids...
| 12 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:50:19pm |
re: #10 Bob Levin
I think our educational system was designed for an age that has passed. I believe it was initially designed as a means to take care of children, once child labor became illegal.
Over the decades schools have transitioned more into being giant pens which keep children off the street and out of the house for 6 hours a day. I'm not sure it was initially designed to be that way.
I've been told that kindergarten was originated by Europeans in order to socialize young children to become closer to a "norm" for their status. For public education in this country I guess Elizabeth Harrison is an important figure.
Anyway, I disagree with the Forbe's author that the education system is a leading cause in the decline of the status of science and engineering among young people.
| 13 |
freetoken Sun, Jan 23, 2011 10:55:04pm |
One other objection I have to the original piece is the assumption that the US actually needs more scientists and engineers.
So many people are walking around with science degrees that not all of them can find work in their hoped-for fields.
And as far as engineers are concerned - the need doesn't scale with the population. Once a team of engineers have designed a gadget that gadget can be produced in various quantities with very little further input needed from the original engineers.
The one exception to this might be civil engineers, who are needed to lay out the physical structure of our society. However, even there once a street with edifices have been constructed the need for further engineering in that location will be occasional at best.
Finally, Wall Street will pay so much more than some lab for anyone who is truly capable in quantitative thinking that the more numerate in American society have been drawn to the business/finance high-powered world.
| 14 |
Shiplord Kirel Sun, Jan 23, 2011 11:35:07pm |
I think it's a mistake to blame either fundamentalists or the education system for this state of affairs. Fundamentalist anti-science and inadequate education are more effects than causes.
Creationists, for example, are certainly a pack of charlatans and superstitious fools, but how do they manage to attract an audience in the first place? How is it possible that a candidate for public office can baldly declare that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and not be laughed out of the room?
There are many deficiencies in the education system, but the truth is that most high schools in this country have science programs that can do an adequate job of preparing sufficiently motivated students. The high school science classes I've seen in recent years were wonders compared to what I had in the 60s, yet I did become a scientist. Our local high schools teach calculus and analysis and oceanography. When I graduated from high school, I could not really do algebra. This says nothing about the exponential increase in outside resources available to science students these days, including the internet and any number of outreach programs run by everyone from NASA to the Cotton Co-op (for real, the cotton people do some heavy science.)
I don't have an easy answer for this, but I suspect that the problem is very deeply embedded in our culture. Scientists are disparaged as nerds and geeks and stereotyped as weak introverts who can't handle the rough and tumble of the "real world." People of every class are conditioned to disparage and dismiss science and the media pander to this prejudice with pseudoscience and distorted scare stories about corrupt and incompetent scientists.
I also believe that average people are conditioned to under-estimate their own potential for understanding science and mathematics. A while back I was on a radio talk show discussing global warming. During a break the host told me to lay off terms like "400 parts per million" since "that'll go over the listeners' heads like you were speaking Hindi."
I ignored him, mentioned the figure, and added, "If you think that's a hard concept, you are wrong. Imagine that our host owes you a million dollars and he offers you four hundred dollars to settle the debt. Now, is there anyone out there who would even consider that offer? No, you would not. You do know how much four hundred is compared to a million, so four hundred parts per million is not some arcane science-speak you have a ready excuse to ignore."
According to a poll a couple of years ago, the average American estimates that NASA gets 24% of the federal budget. This is about 50 times the real figure, a figure that is widely available for anyone who wants to look. No wonder there is so much hostility toward the scientific enterprise! No wonder demagogues get such a positive response when they yammer about corrupt scientists backing the party line to get grants.
The average person can understand these figures, but perhaps they assume going in that the data are impenetrable and obscure and don't even try? Or would it be disreputable and "nerdish" to actually know this kind of stuff?
| 15 |
Cheese Eating Victory Monkey Mon, Jan 24, 2011 1:19:41am |
re: #14 Shiplord Kirel
I appreciate your point about science and engineering having the "nerd" label and that many are intimidated by those subjects.
I think there are other points of view as well. For example, there's a mentality among a lot in the middle classes that success means going to law school. I lost count of all the stories of unfocused college students who spend four years in liberal arts and default to law school as their golden goose. There's something in American culture than promotes this idea, and the idea of large salaries and TV shows probably plays a part in this.
Another sad fact about the sciences is that a lot of the big Universities weed out students instead of nurturing them. I dropped out of Computer Science 101. Others drop out at Organic Chemistry. One of my relatives who got into the Ivy Leagues with a top SAT scores had to drop out of electrical engineering due to the difficulty level of one or two classes. There are some really good students who just don't do well or barely survive in these majors. "D" and "F" grades can ruin a student's GPA, and to minimize that risk, the rational choice is to take easier majors and classes. This disincentive needs to be removed before for more to enter and graduate from the hard sciences. When you add the cost of college into the mix, there's a huge disincentive to take risks with hard majors.
| 16 |
laZardo Mon, Jan 24, 2011 5:44:02am |
Science flew us to the moon.
Religion flew us into skyscrapers.
I think we know what's really to blame here.
| 17 |
dragonfire1981 Mon, Jan 24, 2011 8:09:32am |
How ironic is it that these right wing types insist that embracing a more free market, libertarian, right wing position in national politics is key to bringing America back to greatness and to reduce our dependency on Chinese imports...
| 18 |
Bob Levin Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:09:34pm |
re: #12 freetoken
It actually was designed that way, according to Stuart Ewen's now old book (new book when I first read it), Captains of Consciousness. Excellent history of mass culture.
Let's just say, as Ewen went back to the early part of the century, quoting from Edward Filene to Advertising Age. What we have today is exactly what was being created back then. Our history has been one of fantastic innovation coupled with large segments of the population bathed in ignorance.
That's the school system.
| 19 |
Bob Levin Tue, Jan 25, 2011 2:16:53pm |
re: #13 freetoken
We actually do need more scientists and engineers, but it's a coin. The other side of scientific development is funding. Government funding isn't enough, you need venture capitalists. I think the money is there, just not being used to create businesses and innovation.
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