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1 Killgore Trout  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 7:39:25pm

Ok, I did have to read the whole thing before I gave it an upding. That's pretty bad.

2 freetoken  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 8:07:38pm

Down-ding for the Soros whistle and the balance-fairy act.

The author, MJ Rosenberg, is pretty clearly trying to force the current Egypt unrest into his pre-conceived notions of why things happen in the Middle-East.

You could have just picked apart the essay without doing your equivocation bit.

3 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 8:20:28pm

re: #2 freetoken

Down-ding for the Soros whistle and the balance-fairy act.

The author, MJ Rosenberg, is pretty clearly trying to force the current Egypt unrest into his pre-conceived notions of why things happen in the Middle-East.

You could have just picked apart the essay without doing your equivocation bit.

I actually think that Buck has a point. Whatever other good they do, MM and TPM are seriously in the wrong on this one. Pointing that out is not a MBF act.

4 BishopX  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 8:47:19pm

Rosenberg is blaming the Israel lobby for America's support of Mubarak and is explicitly not blaming Israel for it:

Few would argue that the imminent collapse of the Mubarak regime (and other Middle East dictatorships) derives from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Neither Egyptians nor Tunisians are risking and losing their lives for Palestinians. They are doing it for themselves. They want freedom.

But the hatred for America that the revolutionaries feel stems in large part from our support for the occupation and the regional dictators who help enable it. And that support stems entirely from the lobby's power to intimidate policymakers.

Please read your own links to make sure they say what you think they say.

5 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 8:55:29pm

re: #4 BishopX

Rosenberg is blaming the Israel lobby for America's support of Mubarak and is explicitly not blaming Israel for it:

Please read your own links to make sure they say what you think they say.

Blaming the "Israel Lobby" is an anti-Semitic dog whistle.

6 Buck  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 9:31:02pm

re: #4 BishopX

Rosenberg is blaming the Israel lobby for America's support of Mubarak and is explicitly not blaming Israel for it:

Please read your own links to make sure they say what you think they say.

I don't know what you are reading, but the paragraphs you quote blames the all powerful Israel lobby and is clearly saying it controls congress. do you think that is true? do you think that Israel or it's lobbying controls congress?

7 Buck  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 9:38:28pm

re: #4 BishopX

also do you think that the revolutionaries hate us because we support the occupation?

what do we think about people who call hamas terrorists revolutionaries?

8 Bob Levin  Tue, Feb 1, 2011 10:29:29pm

This is more from the link/article by MJ Rosenberg:

I am often accused of harping on the lobby's baleful influence. I plead guilty. But it's my obligation because (1) I know from personal experience — 15 years on Capitol Hill and four at AIPAC — how it operates, (2) I know how little it really cares about Israel, and (3) I am free to tell the truth about it. If I worked in the mainstream media or in the U.S. government, I wouldn't be.

I did a quick Google search of the author, and this article is par for his course.

On the one hand, he rails about Israel and the US being on the wrong side of history, and yet, he wants to preserve a peace treaty that is about 30 years old. Maybe he's talking about a three-sided piece of paper--because I don't see history having more sides on this issue. The treaty is either there or it's not. If it's there, you work to keep it there. If it's not there, you try to get one. I think even the Buddha would agree that there is no middle way here.

I don't know exactly what he saw when working for AIPAC. Probably not the efficient, hyper-intelligent, mind and world controllers of Mearshimer and Walt legend. Probably, he saw quite the opposite. That's because the world is quite the opposite, everyone in the world. We bumble around, do the wrong thing, hurt people by accident, hurt people through scheming, and yet--this is a miracle--things still get done. Frequently, the right thing happens despite our best efforts.

Thanks for the link Buck, and keep us posted on this gentleman.

9 Timmeh  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:20:51am
Lizards should probably focus on what MJ Rosenberg at Media Matters is saying about all Jews.

What is Rosenberg saying about "all Jews" now? I must have missed that.

10 Buck  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 7:56:14am

re: #9 Timmeh

What is Rosenberg saying about "all Jews" now? I must have missed that.

I am sorry you missed it. Instead of attacking an individual, Rosenberg makes general anti-semitic statements. He does not back up these remarks with any evidence. That antisemitism hurts all jews.

For example:

That was the part that would have ended the occupation. But the Israelis chose to ignore it and the lobby and the ever-faithful Congress blocked Carter's efforts to push it through.

In fact Israel was ready and willing to "end the occupation". It was not Israel that walked away from the final step. Do I need to document that for you? I am hoping that you know this already.

11 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 9:43:55am
The lizards who were outraged by Beck comments on Soros... well here is Soros funded Media Matters saying it outright.

Really? You made a few good points, then went full wingnut. Downding.

12 Buck  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:05:24am

re: #11 Fozzie Bear

Really? You made a few good points, then went full wingnut. Downding.

Well, I was curious how you were going to react...

13 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:18:42am

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

Blaming the "Israel Lobby" is an anti-Semitic dog whistle.

Not necessarily, no. This guy, being a Jew, and a lobbyist, including one who worked at AIPAC, wouldn't be a very good candidate for an antisemite. My guess is that he didn't enjoy his time at AIPAC very much and now has a hardon for attacking them.

I don't agree with his views in the least, his reference to the 'occupation' is bullshit.

It's also moronic and baseless of him to accuse the US of supporting Mubarek solely to support Israel, or at the behest of Israel. We supported him for a wide number of reasons, and even without Israel in the picture, we probably would have supported him as an anti-Soviet measure.

He's wrong, dead wrong, and deserves to be called out on it. But saying he's saying it about 'All Jews' is a rather stupid lie.

And this takes nothing, nothing away from Beck's antisemitism, and it's shameful for Buck to try to use this to somehow justify Beck's antisemitism.

14 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24:38am

re: #12 Buck

Well, I was curious how you were going to react...

Soros didn't give any money to Media Matter before October 2010, at which point he donated 1 million dollars. He had not donated before, nor since.

Does anybody know how much MM took in in 2010, in total, to put that number into perspective?

15 Buck  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 11:24:01am

re: #14 Fozzie Bear

Soros didn't give any money to Media Matter before October 2010, at which point he donated 1 million dollars. He had not donated before, nor since.

Does anybody know how much MM took in in 2010, in total, to put that number into perspective?

He didn't give directly before that date. However organizations that he funds and directs gave money to Media Matters before that.

16 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 11:26:08am

re: #15 Buck

So why focus your blame on one Jew who gives money to Media Matters?

17 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 11:28:25am

re: #16 Obdicut

So why focus your blame on one Jew who gives money to Media Matters?

Apparently a Jewish liberal giving money to liberal organizations is clear evidence of anti-semitism. Who needs evidence when you have smear tactics?

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 11:50:13am

re: #16 Obdicut

So why focus your blame on one Jew who gives money to Media Matters?

Because the nice men on the teevee and on the blogs told him to :D

19 Buck  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:25:58pm

Right... I am targeting the nice jewish zaida type....

Nothing I have EVER said about him has anything to do with jewish. It is not about his religion.

However, I ask why you clearly think his religion should insulate him from criticism?

20 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:26:52pm

re: #19 Buck

Right... I am targeting the nice jewish zaida type...

Nothing I have EVER said about him has anything to do with jewish. It is not about his religion.

However, I ask why you clearly think his religion should insulate him from criticism?

Antisemitism has nothing to do with religion? This is a new approach, I must say.

21 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:27:33pm

re: #19 Buck

Buck, if you're going to reply to my comments, then stop pretending you're not talking to me. It makes you look ridiculous.

My point is that many, many people and groups fund Media Matters. Yet you focus on only one donor-- George Soros, who is Jewish.

Why do you single him out? Why do the other donors not matter to you?

22 Buck  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:47:10pm

re: #20 Fozzie Bear

Antisemitism has nothing to do with religion? This is a new approach, I must say.

Well, I am saying that criticizing Soros, without bringing up his religion is NOT antisemitic.

23 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 12:56:29pm

re: #22 Buck

Well, I am saying that criticizing Soros, without bringing up his religion is NOT antisemitic.

That makes no sense. A lot of antisemites criticize Jews on racial, not religious grounds.

24 Bob Levin  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 1:09:15pm

re: #19 Buck

However, I ask why you clearly think his religion should insulate him from criticism?

Of course criticize him. But what kind of criticism would be accurate? This is where Jewish institutions have failed--what is the definition of Antisemitism?

Here's the best definition that I've heard, one that would indeed scare the kiddies and upset the parents, and bring an avalanche of complaints on the head of the synagogue religious school:

I was watching a documentary about WWII and the script called for narrative using the writings of a soldier who liberated the camps. Paraphrasing--it was like the invasion of Europe, the road to Germany was a journey into the heart of evil, and when we reached Dachau, I knew that we had reached the deepest part of that evil heart.

So when you say that someone is Antisemitic, to me, you are saying that this scene, put it into poetry and images, this scene lies at the center of their being--and they enjoy it as a good thing, their secret hope and dream, the prayer they say when they know that they are praying but aren't quite aware of the nature of that prayer. Yes indeed. It is so much more than 'this person insulted Jews'.

So, would this image be in the heart of the heart of Rosenberg, and would it be a source of his hopes and joy, the secret compartment of his prayers? The answer is no.

That definition conjures a frightening thought, but there are people like that in the world. There are Antisemites. And that would be the beginning of learning the lessons of the Holocaust.

25 Obdicut  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 2:26:32pm

re: #24 Bob Levin

This is one reason why I generally say that Beck engages in antisemitism, or gives antisemitic opinions, rather than is an antisemite. The hearts of men are pretty hard to look into.

26 Slap  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 2:30:56pm

re: #25 Obdicut

The hearts of men are pretty hard to look into.

This.

27 Fozzie Bear  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 2:38:19pm

It's not that hard. You just need a really sharp knife. /

28 Bob Levin  Wed, Feb 2, 2011 3:48:55pm

re: #25 Obdicut

Exactly. However, there is another aspect of certain Antisemites. They are proud of these feelings. They show off that they are brave enough to have these feelings.

Then there are those who know they have those feelings, but are able to hide them, to an extent. That's where your strategy comes in. Don't know if there's fire, but I smell smoke.

And then there are those who have the feelings, but hide them successfully. And those are the folks that turn their backs with the hope that others will do the work for them.

So, the 'front' in this war is in the depths of our consciousness. How do you fight that? And with what?

These are hard questions to ask, and even harder to answer. That would be number two on the lessons of the Holocaust. And coincidentally, number two on the questions of which our institutions are most afraid. Really. If you were the education director at a synagogue and you put these questions into the curriculum, you'd lose your job.

29 Buck  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 2:38:20pm

Can I criticize Soros for his "blame Israel for Egypt" nonsense when he writes it himself?

The main stumbling block is Israel.

I mean he could actually give examples of why he thinks this is... He could, but he doesn't. He just tells us what they (Israel) is thinking, and places them as the only stumbling block between Egyptians and freedom is Israel.

30 Bob Levin  Thu, Feb 3, 2011 3:55:59pm

re: #29 Buck

Sure. Criticize his arguments, criticize his deeds, be careful about the heart.


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