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1 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:04:14pm

I could say a whole lot of things.

I'll say this instead:

Amen.

2 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:04:25pm
To all female defenders of rightwing womanhood:

These ladies are out there trying to strip you of all of your most basic rights by being spokes models for women's repression. OK, ok I get the whole women get to dress how they want, or be as provocative as they want idea. I just disagree. No one gets to dress how they want at all times and for the Love of G-d why would anyone defend women who are purposefully hurting other women?

Or do you think it is ok for them to pimp the idea that abortion = eugenics and all of their other colorful stuff?


I still wouldn't blame them. I would blame the average American, who makes up the audience and has a room temperature IQ.

3 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:05:05pm

Many people today do not get the concept of "personal responsibility". You WORK for what you get. Yes, it's hard, but the joy you get is measured by the effort you put into achieving it. Whatever your goal is.

4 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:05:50pm

re: #2 SpaceJesus

I still wouldn't blame them. I would blame the average American, who makes up the audience and has a room temperature IQ.

I blame them for exploiting it at the expense of their fellow women.

5 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:07:24pm

re: #3 Floral Giraffe

Many people today do not get the concept of "personal responsibility". You WORK for what you get. Yes, it's hard, but the joy you get is measured by the effort you put into achieving it. Whatever your goal is.

Well said. Scratch a wingnut and it is always someone else's fault. It is never that they are uneducated fat and useless. NO it is the black guy who got affirmative action or the Jewish guy who runs the world or the feminists taking their chances away etc etc...

6 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:07:33pm

re: #1 wlewisiii

I could say a whole lot of things.

I'll say this instead:

Amen.

Thank you.

7 Lidane  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:11:33pm

I'd upding this a million times if I could. Well said. I agree completely.

8 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:11:42pm

re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote

The "victim mentality" in our culture today, is disgusting.
Yes, there are real life people in bad situations, that deserve the communities help, but there are a lot of people who could pull themselves up by their bootstraps, if they were willing to try.

9 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:12:02pm

re: #4 LudwigVanQuixote


Hey, that exploitation is part of our culture too. I think the blame still largely rests with the average American.

Either way, it is low, and we can do better.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:12:29pm

re: #7 Lidane

I'd upding this a million times if I could. Well said. I agree completely.

Thank you.

11 SpaceJesus  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:12:59pm

re: #9 SpaceJesus


Either way, it is low, and we can do better.


the way fox uses women that is, not your analysis

12 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:13:37pm

re: #8 Floral Giraffe

The "victim mentality" in our culture today, is disgusting.
Yes, there are real life people in bad situations, that deserve the communities help, but there are a lot of people who could pull themselves up by their bootstraps, if they were willing to try.

True on both counts. There are also plenty who really oppose a level playing field and really try to keep their foot on other's necks.

The GOP is the party of the neck stompers.

13 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 23, 2011 10:13:59pm

re: #11 SpaceJesus

Either way, it is low, and we can do better.

the way fox uses women that is, not your analysis

I thought that was what you meant.

14 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 3:52:43am

Great page and great to see you. :)

small caveat, and I really don't want to have the same argument again, but objecting to misogynostic and sexist language isn't defending rightwing womanhood. Just womanhood.

Does the disgusting irony of them using their bodies to strip you of your rights over yours not matter?

There's a certain irony in a man objecting to the úse of woman's bodies when that use by the women is....being found sexually attractive.

Anyway, I liked your page and agreed with spacejesus as well.

15 researchok  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 3:56:08am

LVQ-

True for the most part, but let's be clear.

The progressive movement tent is not that open to people like me- moderate and right of center. As one serious commenter here once noted, 'there is never room for compromise'. From where I stand, that is not an ideology to which I can ever feel comfortable with.

Politics has become a zero sum game. There is no room for opposing ideas or even differing views. At best we have a phony 'tolerance' of the other by each side.

The irony is Americans are a most tolerant lot, notwithstanding the efforts of each side to paint the other as extreme. Notwithstanding the hysterical efforts of the extremes that claim to speak for majority, Americans usually plot a steady course. When we get into trouble we have a unique ability to self correct.

We in the middle don't really care who you vote for, where or if you pray, where you came from or what language you speak at home. We care that you are a good neighbor, look out for the kids on the block and make sure our mail is picked up when we go on vacation.

It is the extremes that need the illusion that we are irreconcilably different. It is the extremes on either side who need class and racial warfare. Why? Because if they told the truth that while we are not perfect, don't always get it right but keep plugging away at it, their raison 'd'etre ceases to exist. They aren't heroes, and they aren't important.

They are just like the rest of us.

The shrill extremes on either side will continue their 'sky is falling' song and the rest of us will focus on doing the best we can. We'll muddle our way through while the extremes will be forever miserable.

Poetic (and perhaps Divine) justice.

16 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:10:38am
Or do you think it is ok for them to pimp the idea that abortion = eugenics and all of their other colorful stuff?

Absolutely NOT. However I think it is wise to avoid getting overheated and blurring the line between them and us by expressing ourselves in their misogynistic terms - and thereby validating those terms as currency and contributing to a misogynistic culture that values women purely in terms of their sexuality.

Although I think you understand that already as you haven't used any of those terms here.

17 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:11:46am

re: #15 researchok


The progressive movement tent is not that open to people like me- moderate and right of center.

I think it is! But then I would say that, wouldn't I. :)
Great comment.

18 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:15:01am

re: #15 researchok

Left and right are basically meaningless, though. They don't have any reality to them.

The irony is Americans are a most tolerant lot, notwithstanding the efforts of each side to paint the other as extreme.

Depends what you mean. Americans are incredibly intolerant of atheists, for example, and most people say they wouldn't vote for one by a huge margin.

19 researchok  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:35:37am

re: #18 Obdicut

Left and right are basically meaningless, though. They don't have any reality to them.

Depends what you mean. Americans are incredibly intolerant of atheists, for example, and most people say they wouldn't vote for one by a huge margin.

Really.

The only people I see attacking atheists are religious nut cases.

20 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:43:40am

re: #19 researchok

Really.

The only people I see attacking atheists are religious nut cases.

Yes, really.

[Link: www.gallup.com...]

21 researchok  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:48:32am

How is that 'attacking' atheists?

America is a religious country. No secret there.

Americans are more comfortable with a candidate that professes faith. That is their right, in the same way atheists have the right to reject religious expression.

22 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:52:42am

re: #21 researchok

How is that 'attacking' atheists?

You're the one who introduced the word 'attacking', so it's kind of bizarre to ask me to defend it. Do you realize you're doing that?


Americans are more comfortable with a candidate that professes faith. That is their right, in the same way atheists have the right to reject religious expression.

Yep. It's also intolerant of them.

23 researchok  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 4:57:56am

re: #22 Obdicut

You're the one who introduced the word 'attacking', so it's kind of bizarre to ask me to defend it. Do you realize you're doing that?

Yep. It's also intolerant of them.

I apologize if the distinction between 'incredibly intolerant' and 'attack' is a great one.

24 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 5:06:16am

re: #23 researchok

I apologize if the distinction between 'incredibly intolerant' and 'attack' is a great one.

It's a huge one. Intolerance is a passive state. Attacking is an aggressive action.

There is a lot of intolerance in the US today. We need, as always, to continue to work to bring those barriers down. We've come a long way, baby, but it's not time to break out the cigars yet.

We still have a dream.

Have you looked into this, by the way?

[Link: implicit.harvard.edu...]

25 researchok  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 5:11:09am

re: #24 Obdicut

It's a huge one. Intolerance is a passive state. Attacking is an aggressive action.

There is a lot of intolerance in the US today. We need, as always, to continue to work to bring those barriers down. We've come a long way, baby, but it's not time to break out the cigars yet.

We still have a dream.

Have you looked into this, by the way?

[Link: implicit.harvard.edu...]

I'll check that out. Right up my alley so to speak.

Thanks for the link.

26 aagcobb  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 5:18:01am

re: #15 researchok

I'm not sure who you mean by "the progressive movement" since politics in the US has skewed so far to the right. If you applied the Tea Party's standards, the real Reagan would be a RINO (despite the worship of the mythologized Reagan), and Nixon a radical Marxist. By any reasonable measure, President Obama is a centrist. The people to the left of the President who are disappointed in him haven't had much power for the last few decades, while in contrast the lunatics are firmly in control of the GOP.

27 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 5:27:31am

re: #26 aagcobb

Overton Window in this country is pulled so far to the right that centrist or mildly left people are called radicals.

28 Obdicut  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 5:38:35am

re: #27 iceweasel

Not to mention that people can't accept that someone like me wants to have single-payer insurance not out of ideology, but because it's the cheapest and most effective way of doing it.

That was part of my conversion from pretty libertarian to, well, less ideologue in general: I reasoned my way towards the single payer based on strict self-interest, and very few supposed 'libertarians' would accept it because it came to a conclusion that they didn't like. That's when I realized most 'libertarians' are just minarchists, which isn't even a real philosophy.

In the end, there's what will work. No matter where you start from, libertarian, socialist, or what have you, you are going to eventually arrive at single-payer as the basis for your method of delivering health insurance.

29 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 6:05:30am

re: #28 Obdicut

Not to mention that people can't accept that someone like me wants to have single-payer insurance not out of ideology, but because it's the cheapest and most effective way of doing it.

That was part of my conversion from pretty libertarian to, well, less ideologue in general: I reasoned my way towards the single payer based on strict self-interest, and very few supposed 'libertarians' would accept it because it came to a conclusion that they didn't like. That's when I realized most 'libertarians' are just minarchists, which isn't even a real philosophy.

In the end, there's what will work. No matter where you start from, libertarian, socialist, or what have you, you are going to eventually arrive at single-payer as the basis for your method of delivering health insurance.

Well said. Most serious people who want singlepayer want it for pragmatic reasons. Not ideological.

30 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 7:42:12am

My take on democracy has been shaped by Erich Fromm's Escape From Freedom.

Fromm says and it seems to me that a fair number of people don't really like freedom. They are uncomfortable with it. They don't like the uncertainty of it.

So they escape from freedom. They look to a political culture where things are certain. Where The Truth™ rules and nothing ever changes. Except maybe for the better.

It may not be pleasant, even for them, but it is certain. These people prefer certainty to freedom.

That's what the Tea Partiers want: certainty. And if freedom has to be tossed out the airlock to attain this certainty, they're cool with that.

31 calochortus  Thu, Feb 24, 2011 8:49:59am

Ludwig, excellent page (as always.)

Lots of great comments here. I think it all boils down to the incredible complexity of human beings and societies. Total freedom is as great a burden as total certainty-and not just because one person's freedom can impinge on someone else in a negative way. Freedom can be very inefficient (if you doubt that, just eat at an Asian restaurant with me-I tend to spend a lot of time dithering over the multitude of combinations available. You could starve while this goes on.) The pendulum swings back and forth because there is no perfect place to stop it.

Researchok, as a life long agnostic/atheist I can assure you that there are a lot of people out there who don't believe it is possible to live a moral life without a religion. Therefore, atheists cannot be trusted. That may or may not be intolerance, but it is a definite bias.


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