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1 aagcobb  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:00:07pm

And they accuse the Left of class warfare. The Right has been waging war on behalf of the monied elite for decades.

2 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:13:16pm

That's three votes for Walker.

3 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:29:06pm

re: #1 aagcobb
But most people on the right, Even many middle class and yes, public union members, that i know in my family and here in Texas do not see themselves as waging war on behalf of the monied (except for the libertarians). They believe they are fighting for something greater and more compelling-God/America and the right wing, social conservative view of god and how it relates to everything. They really do see the USA as a holy land created specifically for and gifted to Christians by god, so god is America and America is god, there is no difference. They have so successfully linked their unique Christian principles with economics (that favors the wealthy few) that you can not separate it from the general right wing social conservative movement.

4 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:32:49pm

re: #2 Bob Levin

That's three votes for Walker.

How do you figure?

5 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:34:26pm

re: #4 Obdicut

How many of the wealthiest Americans are there? They still only get one vote.

6 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:35:29pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

How many of the wealthiest Americans are there? They still only get one vote.

You mean three votes against Walker, then?

7 Interesting Times  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:37:33pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

How many of the wealthiest Americans are there? They still only get one vote as many votes as they can buy through Koch Industries astroturf groups and Fox News

Fixed.

8 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:39:36pm

re: #3 Cankles McCellulite

But most people on the right, Even many middle class and yes, public union members, that i know in my family and here in Texas do not see themselves as waging war on behalf of the monied (except for the libertarians). They believe they are fighting for something greater and more compelling-God/America and the right wing, social conservative view of god and how it relates to everything. They really do see the USA as a holy land created specifically for and gifted to Christians by god, so god is America and America is god, there is no difference. They have so successfully linked their unique Christian principles with economics (that favors the wealthy few) that you can not separate it from the general right wing social conservative movement.

So they are siding with who they perceive to be their tribe. Like Charles and many others have said, it's tribalism.

9 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:41:32pm

re: #8 moderatelyradicalliberal

Exactly.

10 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:51:55pm

What percentage UNDERSTAND Walkers plan? Really know what it says. Without the hyperbole of "crush unions" or "take away the right to collective bargaining".

I mean if you demonize a person, and keep repeating that his plan is to destroy something, then you will find people who will oppose it.

Ask the question "Do you support trying to balance the state budget and reduce the state deficit", and you will get a different answer.

Even if you ask "Do you support placing limits on both sides of the public service collective bargaining?"

OR you can just go along with the "Walker eats cute puppies" meme.

11 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:55:34pm

BTW, IF Collective bargaining really is a RIGHT, and any bill tries to "take it away" the place to fight that is in the courts.

You know like how opponents to the Obamacare bill are handling it?

If a group of people (a majority) want to organize as a union, then there is a lot of law behind NOT being able to stop them.

If it were just as easy as passing a bill that says NO UNIONS EVER, it would have been done LONG AGO.

12 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 12:59:32pm

re: #11 Buck

BTW, IF Collective bargaining really is a RIGHT, and any bill tries to "take it away" the place to fight that is in the courts.

No, Buck. If someone was trying to pass a law making it legal for the government to seize any property without restitution, just because that is also a right doesn't mean that bill shouldn't be opposed.

13 Gus  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:21:02pm

Only the wealthiest Americans support Walker's union-busting...

And their minions.

14 sizzleRI  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:26:39pm

re: #10 Buck

What percentage UNDERSTAND Walkers plan? Really know what it says. Without the hyperbole of "crush unions" or "take away the right to collective bargaining".

I mean if you demonize a person, and keep repeating that his plan is to destroy something, then you will find people who will oppose it.

Ask the question "Do you support trying to balance the state budget and reduce the state deficit", and you will get a different answer.

Even if you ask "Do you support placing limits on both sides of the public service collective bargaining?"

OR you can just go along with the "Walker eats cute puppies" meme.

See, this is where I find of all of this hilarious. Walker could have played hard with the unions and demanded so many concessions. And he would have had huge support from the public. Because they know states are hurting and many people in the private sector get a worse deal than unionized public sector employees. I grew up in a liberal, or progressive, or whatever we are these days, family. And I was raised pretty hostile to public sector unions. A bit of snobbery in there because my parents were professionals (although now my father is a union member, so who knows) and because honestly they seemed to act like spoiled brats sometimes. (Teachers kicked in nothing for healthcare for years, it was impossible to get rid of brutal police officers, etc.)

But instead of employing a winning strategy Walker had to go off the rails and try to dismantle collective bargaining. It is just awesome to watch. Republicans get a little bit of power and instead of using it in a controlled, conservative manner, they lose their minds.

15 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:29:05pm

re: #6 Obdicut

It's not enough to get him re-elected, by a long shot. Or any of the legislature that rammed this thing through. This fight is not over.

16 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:33:31pm

re: #7 publicityStunted

We're not talking about Wal-Mart. We are talking about police, fire protection, sanitation, and other government services. People put a very high value on these. Again, the unions are comprised of adults. They can fight back very effectively.

17 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:47:31pm

re: #13 Gus 802

If their minions support cuts in police, fire protection, street repair, sanitation. Heck, even lemmings do not run over cliffs. That's a myth. These are essential services. I don't know anyone who would support cuts to these services. Do you?

And if you do, argue with them a little bit and see how deeply they hold this point of view.

18 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:56:30pm

re: #10 Buck

Fine, let's take the purely economics approach. Did Walker cut his own salary? Are the members of the legislature taking a pay cut? Do they get to deduct gas mileage from their income? Do they get reimbursed? What kind of deductible to they have on the health plan? Do they have a publicly funded health plan?

What will happen to the cost of insurance if police protection and fire protection is lessened? How about the cost of health insurance if sanitation pickup is cut back, or the department of water and sewers doesn't perform their services up to par? What if salaries sink too low to support families and pay mortgage, then you will have a dash to the private sector for jobs. Who will fill those jobs, skilled, experienced people?

What about the decline in purchasing power from all of these employees? Will small businesses feel the cuts, as people begin to pare down to the essentials? If foreclosures increase, how will this affect property values, and hence tax revenue?

The thing about economics, the big picture in never big enough.

19 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 1:58:31pm

So it is the belief of many here that the republicans got elected in WI because only the rich there voted for them. Interesting.

I am also really interested in how so many of you are going to react when a republican minority uses a tactic like this on a Democratic majority.

I mean the reason it was so difficult for Federal democrats to pass bill was not really because only republicans opposed the bills. We all can count, and know for the first 2 years the democrats had a majority in both houses, and a democrat president. It really was those pesky blue dog democrats that slowed down the ability to shove anything Reid and Pelosi wanted down the pipe....

In WI 's case the 14 missing democrats are not serving democracy by simply being MIA. If they really could count on a majority of Wisconsin voters to oppose this bill, they should be able to get the voters to call and write their republican representatives in order to convince some of them to change their vote.

The idea that ALL the republicans are voting against the wishes of the people they represent is simplistic.

The first time I heard the expression "elections have consequences" it was a democrat telling a republican.

20 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:06:49pm

re: #18 Bob Levin

Fine, let's take the purely economics approach. Did Walker cut his own salary? Are the members of the legislature taking a pay cut? Do they get to deduct gas mileage from their income? Do they get reimbursed? What kind of deductible to they have on the health plan? Do they have a publicly funded health plan?

What will happen to the cost of insurance if police protection and fire protection is lessened? How about the cost of health insurance if sanitation pickup is cut back, or the department of water and sewers doesn't perform their services up to par? What if salaries sink too low to support families and pay mortgage, then you will have a dash to the private sector for jobs. Who will fill those jobs, skilled, experienced people?

What about the decline in purchasing power from all of these employees? Will small businesses feel the cuts, as people begin to pare down to the essentials? If foreclosures increase, how will this affect property values, and hence tax revenue?

The thing about economics, the big picture in never big enough.

All good questions? Well some are a bit loaded. What if the sky falls? Well that isn't in the bill either.

Let me ask you a question. What if you let a small group of people (minority) use extortion to stop the duly elected members (majority) from legislating?

If the bill is really that bad for WI, and a true majority will oppose it, then the next election will take care of it. The bill is not about killing people, or destroying anything. It is about finances. If it causes the economy to get worse? Well that is what elections are about.

The math of a $130 million deficit, and a $3 billion debt is very clear.

21 moderatelyradicalliberal  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:07:37pm

re: #3 Cankles McCellulite

But most people on the right, Even many middle class and yes, public union members, that i know in my family and here in Texas do not see themselves as waging war on behalf of the monied (except for the libertarians). They believe they are fighting for something greater and more compelling-God/America and the right wing, social conservative view of god and how it relates to everything. They really do see the USA as a holy land created specifically for and gifted to Christians by god, so god is America and America is god, there is no difference. They have so successfully linked their unique Christian principles with economics (that favors the wealthy few) that you can not separate it from the general right wing social conservative movement.

So they are siding with who they perceive to be their tribe. Like Charles and many others have said, it's tribalism.

22 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:11:48pm

re: #18 Bob Levin

Fine, let's take the purely economics approach. Did Walker cut his own salary? Are the members of the legislature taking a pay cut?

I should have added.... the only way those questions are relevant if this is a bill about cutting the pay of anyone.

23 Gus  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:14:50pm
24 garhighway  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:15:48pm

re: #22 Buck

I should have added... the only way those questions are relevant if this is a bill about cutting the pay of anyone.

They are relevant if this is really about balancing the State's budget. If the State was truly experiencing a fiscal crisis, all options would be on the table. That they aren't speaks to the lack of good faith demonstrated by Gov. Walker.

25 Obdicut  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:16:00pm

re: #20 Buck

There's no extortion afoot.

Why lie?

26 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:39:21pm

re: #20 Buck

All good questions? Well some are a bit loaded. What if the sky falls? Well that isn't in the bill either.

I have to admit, your herring is a lovely shade of red.

Let me ask you a question. What if you let a small group of people (minority) use extortion to stop the duly elected members (majority) from legislating?

This is the foundation of American democracy, that the majority can never run roughshod over the minority. It's not extortion, it's elegance.

If the bill is really that bad for WI, and a true majority will oppose it, then the next election will take care of it. The bill is not about killing people, or destroying anything. It is about finances. If it causes the economy to get worse? Well that is what elections are about.

Yes, in a democracy, that is always an option. So is protest, and so are all kinds of techniques that go into the passage of a bill. Show me a poll saying that the people of Wisconsin are for this.

The math of a $130 million deficit, and a $3 billion debt is very clear.

Yes it is. I would not begin solving this by cutting essential services--because that is what's going to happen. Nor would I begin by starting a trend that tries to eliminate an institution that is vital to the smooth functioning of an economy.

27 Bob Levin  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:41:02pm

re: #22 Buck

I'm saying that he does have a problem and he's going about solving by taking the exact wrong direction.

28 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:51:56pm

re: #21 moderatelyradicalliberal

It's deja vu. I'll play along

Exactly.

29 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 5:20:11pm

re: #26 Bob Levin

Show me a poll saying that the people of Wisconsin are for this.

WisconsinReporter.com Feb 21 500 likley voters in WI

It is split evenly 50-50, but along party lines.

30 Buck  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 5:28:37pm

The really interesting thing (and something almost no one is talking about) is that this bill does nothing more than what the Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 did to the unions of Federal public service worker.


Democratic President Jimmy Carter, backed by a Democratic Congress, passed the Civil Service Reform Act. Washington had already established its General Schedule (GS) classification and pay system for workers. The 1978 bill went further, focused as it was on worker accountability and performance. It severely proscribed the issues over which employees could bargain, as well as prohibited compulsory union support.

Really great article by kimberly strassel of the wall street journal

31 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 6:22:08pm

Buck? If the state is in such a crisis, and the people understand this, why isn't the equally important tool of raising revenue through higher taxes on the table?

I, for one, if I lived in Wisconsin, and this came up I would cheerfully pay more to help balance the books.

Tanstaafl and all that.

32 palomino  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 6:29:28pm

Seems to me that Walker is "ramming this plan down the throats" of the people of WI. Ironically Obama was accused of this with HCR despite spending 9 months negotiating with quite a few gop senators. Walker, on the other hand, won't negotiate with anyone. If that's not a ram job, I don't know what is.

33 sagehen  Fri, Feb 25, 2011 9:13:18pm

re: #19 Buck


I am also really interested in how so many of you are going to react when a republican minority uses a tactic like this on a Democratic majority.

I mean the reason it was so difficult for Federal democrats to pass bill was not really because only republicans opposed the bills. We all can count, and know for the first 2 years the democrats had a majority in both houses, and a democrat president. It really was those pesky blue dog democrats that slowed down the ability to shove anything Reid and Pelosi wanted down the pipe...

In WI 's case the 14 missing democrats are not serving democracy by simply being MIA. If they really could count on a majority of Wisconsin voters to oppose this bill, they should be able to get the voters to call and write their republican representatives in order to convince some of them to change their vote.

"I am also really interested in how so many of you are going to react when a republican minority uses a tactic like this on a Democratic majority" --
Did you only just recently start paying attention? I think what you mean is... "I wish I could remember how so many of you reacted when a Republican minority used tactics like this on a Democratic majority."

The Democratic House passed hundreds of bills that never came to a Senate vote, because of multiple endless filibusters and anonymous holds. What those missing Wisconsin Democrats are doing is... basically the state legislature version of a filibuster, while tens of thousands of Wisconsin union members (who, by the way, are also Wisconsin voters and taxpayers) take to the streets and try to make low-information voters aware of issues they hadn't previously paid attention to.


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