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1 angel Graham  Feb 27, 2011 11:48:02pm

I never even saw yours. Sorry about that. Great minds think alike apparently about what an interesting discovery it is.

2 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Feb 27, 2011 11:49:04pm

Neat. Collecting and processing a ton of snails into pigment sounds like a LOT of work. The price and that it came to symbolize royalty and wealth are a testament to how hard it is.

I don’t really get why they won’t want to incorporate the original color into the tassels now that they have found it. I guess it would depend on if the color was more important to God or to the devoted. I don’t really remember so I suppose I have some reading to do unless someone knows the context.

3 Bob Levin  Feb 28, 2011 12:11:24am

re: #2 prononymous

I’ve been wearing what I think to be techelet for nearly 20 years—so this controversy isn’t a new thing. In many religious discussions the definition of nouns within the Torah is in doubt. For instance, no one knows exactly what stones were inlaid on the breastplate of the Kohen Gadol. And so, there might be a Talmudic discussion about what those words actually mean, what stones are being mentioned.

But noun controversies are quite common. Religiously, this isn’t a problem. We actually like controversy—which is the genuine reason for Elijah’s cup at the Seder. It is highlighting a controversy regarding the number of glasses of wine we are supposed to drink during the service.

For many years, the identity of chilazon (this particular snail) was quite a mystery, and so techelet were not worn. No one even tried to figure it out. Then, according to the legend that I’m familiar with, the snails washed up on an Israeli beach, and many people thought that this must be the chilazon, and they began making techelet thread. But this method of proof isn’t the best, or even all that good. Therefore, there could be no legal ruling that this in fact was real techelet.

So, for many Jews, they will not wear the blue thread because they view this as making a legal ruling when we don’t have the authority to do so. For others, we do wear the blue thread, because, at worst, our tzitzits are still valid, albeit with a blue thread, and there is a possibility the techelet might be real.

But we acknowledge that there is still a controversy—because the controversy is a more preferrable sitation, spiritually. For those that do not wear techelet, they also now acknowledge a controversy.

4 Bob Levin  Feb 28, 2011 12:27:03am

From the article:

“Tradition is not so interested in science,” Mr. Sherlow said. “There is a type of denial of science and new information.”

This isn’t true. Tradition is essentially a legal body of writing. Introducing science into a legal argument is the same as bringing a scientific expert and evidence into a modern court. First, a foundation has to be laid, the reliability of the scientific method must be established, the credentials of the expert must be established, challenged, re-established, and then the findings are introduced—but they are never proven scientific facts. The jury decides what evidence it believes.

So, there isn’t a denial of science. It’s closer to a puzzle piece that doesn’t easily fit into the evidentiary rules.

However, this is not to say that the legal method of understanding Torah is the only method for understanding Torah. And therefore, legal proof is not the only form of evidence that counts as acceptable proof. After all, there is quite a bit of Tanach that is not law, but narrative—which cannot be understood with legal tools.

5 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Feb 28, 2011 1:19:41am

re: #3 Bob Levin

Thanks for the info. I find the Jewish perspective quite refreshing when compared to Christianity and Islam.

If you don’t mind me asking, are there any specific passages I should read to get a better understanding of the importance of tekhelet?

re: #4 Bob Levin

So do you think that over time, if this finding holds true, people will switch colors or even wear both to “have your bases covered”?

6 Bob Levin  Feb 28, 2011 1:49:02am

re: #5 prononymous

#3

No, not really. We just covered the first layer of questions, which is, what do the words mean? Then we go to, why are these words used? After that, why is it mentioned now? The questions just continue. That’s the important part. It’s like point and click deep meditation. And you can never really get an answer for all of this, just more clues, which lead to more questions. The trick is to get on the journey, learning to ask the most powerful questions. It’s learning the art of asking a question. There are people who get into religion because of the certainty—well, this isn’t for them.

There is a science to the Torah, expressed that you need to do something about a thousand times, and then you’ll understand it. Each time you perform the mitzvah, you should do it a little better, which will yield more understanding. The use of mental experiments is very helpful here.

#4

We want the uncertainty. It’s my understanding (which means that I don’t really know) that other religions have this apocalyptic thing—everything deteriorates into crisis, and then there will be some type of change. We also have a notion of change, but it will be driven by very intense curiosity. There doesn’t have to be a crisis.


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