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1 SteveMcG  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 10:46:50pm

Why don't we wait and see if they say something stupid before we condemn them?

2 Buck  Wed, Mar 9, 2011 11:06:15pm

He doesn't have to say anything. He is going to be on stage with Louis Farrakhan, leader of the Nation of Islam. That should be enough to condemn him.

3 Lidane  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 12:58:16am
Help me find all the Democrats who condemn this.

Sure. Just as soon as you go and find all the Republicans who condemn other Republicans for appearing on stage with noted bigots, anti-Semites, truthers, racists, birthers, and religious fanatics.

4 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:23:51am

I condemn it. Now let's hear you do the same for the BS from republicans.

*crickets*

5 Obdicut  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:08:13am

I guess I count as a Democrat, and I condemn it. Farrakhan is an evil fraud.

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 6:33:19am

Wow, something I agree on with Buck!

7 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 6:33:29am

Buck's a hard core partisan, but ... those dinging this down are putting their partisanship ahead of principle. I'm a newly registered Dem, [just ahead of last election] & I condemn this.

8 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 6:34:31am

re: #3 Lidane

It's not about Buck -- try to get past that friend and look at what Clyburn is doing.

9 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 6:36:33am

re: #7 Thanos

LOL, didn't know my little joke was so predictive.

10 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 6:38:42am

For those who try to play MBF here, imagine another politician appearing at an event where David Duke was a headliner.

11 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:06:52am

re: #10 Sergey Romanov

For those who try to play MBF here, imagine another politician appearing at an event where David Duke was a headliner.

I'd say more like Pam Gellar, except with far less influence. I say that only because The Nation of Islam has never been a terrorist organization like the KKK. But, Clyburn should not participate in this forum.

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:16:02am

re: #11 moderatelyradicalliberal

I'd say more like Pam Gellar, except with far less influence. I say that only because The Nation of Islam has never been a terrorist organization like the KKK. But, Clyburn should not participate in this forum.

Duke was not involved in terrorist activity so this is not an argument. It's his views that are as extreme and as despicable as those of Farrakhan. (Pam Geller is close.) I also think that quantitatively and qualitatively Farrakhan probably has more influence than Duke, who has been marginalized as of late, while Farrakhan is seen by some as "respectable" (hence the above event).

13 Lidane  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:34:16am

re: #8 Thanos

It's not about Buck

Of course it is. That comment about finding Democrats was nothing but a bunch of self-serving nonsense to make himself feel superior. And it's disingenuous because there have been plenty of Republicans in the past two years who have gone on stage with noted bigots, anti-Semites, truthers, racists, birthers, and religious fanatics, and there haven't been any condemnations coming from the right over it.

This isn't about the MBF. It's about the fact that the GOP does this sort of shit all the time and no one bats an eye, but as soon as it's done on the left, we're all expected to fall in line and be good little drones to find examples of elected officials condemning Clyburn. Fuck that. If he wants that list, he can compile it himself.

try to get past that friend and look at what Clyburn is doing.

I don't like what Clyburn's doing. I loathe Farrakhan. But I refuse to play the game of looking for Dems that are criticizing this when a similar event on the right would be met with a shrug of the shoulders.

14 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:34:28am

You know Sergey, you are right. There is no reason to draw any equivalence here. I'm sorry for the ad hominem Buck. I'll amend my statement.

Farrakhan is a despicable person and I urge Rep. Clyburn to have nothing to do with him. I condemn any such meeting. Full stop.

Ok, I'm really going to sleep now. I swear.

15 MinisterO  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 7:51:15am

I'm not a Democrat but I condemn this.

Parent is trollish flame bait, typical of this poster.

16 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:08:32am

I'm not an American but I condemn it. Farrakhan is a full out bigot and anybody should be ashamed of appearing with him.

However…

One Democrat appearing with him does not prove Buck's central hypothesis: That Democrats are evil. Anymore than all the bullshit that various Republicans have pulled recently proves that Republicans are evil.

They're simply people, all of them. And I judge individuals by their actions, not by their party membership.

17 theheat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:10:45am

re: #13 Lidane

What Lidane said, exactly. Farrahkan is an epic hater rabble rousing douchebag, and so is anyone who stands with him. But I don't feel compelled to trip all over myself, when the GOP has effected an entire movement - we're talking partywide solidarity - to shit all over everyone, and they've supported racists, haters, misogynists, anti-Semites, creationists, union busters, homophobes, anti-science faux intellectuals, bible thumpers, and Constitution shredders throughout the process. Daily, even. This is their goal.

One dumbass standing with another dumbass not not define a party. It's too late to re-define the GOP; it's what they are.

18 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:16:48am

re: #13 Lidane

Of course Buck's being partisan. It's what Buck is. So I can accept you downdinging the "Nyah Nyah" in your face approach he takes, but on the other hand there are some here who take the same approach when attacking GOP panderers, indeed it's somewhat to be expected. I don't expect Buck to be a "bigger person" and not do the kneejerk "Nyah nyah" bit, & you shouldn't let the "Nyah Nyah" get under your skin cause you are better than that.

19 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:17:10am

re: #16 Romantic Heretic

Buck's point is about the alleged hypocrisy, not that this proves Democrats' evilness. However, in this respect it should be noted that I haven't seen top Republicans condemning him either, which is curious.

20 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:18:54am

re: #17 theheat

It's not about the GOP. It's about a dumbass who enables a vicious racist. This is not a partisan issue. GOP's sins have absolutely nothing to do with this.

21 Lidane  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:21:49am

re: #18 Thanos

I have my moments of being better than that, but in this case, I'm making an exception. He expects folks on the left to trip over themselves to find examples of elected Dems condemning Clyburn. It's the same game the right plays all the fucking time when anyone on the left says something stupid, but they conveniently turn a blind eye to the douchebags on their side.

Farrakhan is an asshole and a racist, anti-Semitic scum. There's no denying that. And Clyburn is stupid for getting on stage with him. But I'm sick and tired of the self-righteousness from the right when shit like this happens, especially when you look at the outrageous shit their elected officials actually say and the people they publicly hang out with on a constant basis.

22 Lidane  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:23:15am

re: #20 Sergey Romanov

GOP's sins have absolutely nothing to do with this.

Actually, they do, given the way that the GOP openly enables vicious racists, religious fanatics, xenophobes, Islamophobes, misogynists, and other jerks.

23 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:24:33am

re: #22 Lidane

Actually, they do, given the way that the GOP openly enables vicious racists, religious fanatics, xenophobes, Islamophobes, misogynists, and other jerks.

No, GOP's sins do not magically make it OK for a Dem to enable a vicious racist.

24 Lidane  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:29:31am

re: #23 Sergey Romanov

No, GOP's sins do not magically make it OK for a Dem to enable a vicious racist.

You're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's okay for Clyburn to go on stage with Farrakhan. It's not. It's wrong. What I'm saying is that the GOP's sins have everything to do with my refusal to play along with Buck's little self-serving, self-righteous game.

The GOP enables vicious racists and assholes all the time. Hell, sometimes their own elected officials are the ones saying truly offensive shit, and you never see people on the right falling over themselves to publicly condemn it. Why should I go out of my way to find elected Dems falling over themselves to condemn Clyburn? Let Buck do it himself.

25 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:31:16am

re: #24 Lidane

OK. But you're taking his last sentences too literally, IMHO. It's clearly a rhetorical flourish. "No Dems condemn him" in so many words.

26 theheat  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:32:31am

re: #20 Sergey Romanov

The initial post was a dog whistle for the Magical Balance Fairy. I'm saying though I think anyone supporting Farrakhan is a huge anus, I'm not worried it defines the Democratic party. Clearly, it doesn't, and it hasn't.

27 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 8:34:20am

Buck's motive doesn't change what Clyburn is doing, and that's the last I'll say on this.

28 Winny Spencer  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:52:57am

The page and Buck's comment updinged.

29 RadicalModerate  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 9:58:36am

Okay, I'll take the bait on this one.

You have one - count them - ONE elected Democratic official sharing a stage with Louis Farrakhan where both were invited guests in a town-hall setting on things that can be done to rebuild African-American communities. There will be multiple viewpoints represented at this meeting. I am quite sure that if Farrakhan makes any outlandish statements in this setting, he will be quickly taken to task for it by the host (radio talk personality Bev Smith) as well as the other attendees.

Let's compare this to the upcoming "Values Voters Summit" which will be hosted by the SPLC-identified hate group Family Research Council - headed by Tony Perkins - someone who uses mailing lists created by David Duke himself, and has spoken to white supremacist organizations on multiple times (Perkins has his own separate SPLC entry, by the way). This event will have just about EVERY major player in the Republican Party attending, including House Speaker John Boehner, thirteen current and former Senators and Representatives, fifteen current and former Governors, and a multitude of conservative radio/TV personalities.
Here's the cached page of who all will be there this year:
[Link: www.valuesvotersummit.org...]

Given the number of speakers at this event with Council of Conservative Citizens and League of the South memberships, do you really....REALLY want to make this comparison?

30 Randall Gross  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 10:33:41am

re: #29 RadicalModerate

Right on.

31 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 11:19:12am

I'm not a Dem and I don't give a fuck.

32 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:10:20pm

Buck I love how you've taken your title from The Blaze article

[Link: www.theblaze.com...]

Nice group of racist douchebags in the comment section trotting out all the usual Teatard Victim Cards for White People (collect all 35!!!). What a sad fucking display, like there is any equivalency between Clyburn appearing at the same Town Hall as Farrafuckwad and the crap that passes for rightwing demagog panty raids.

Kuddo's Bucko, you've trolled LGF nicely this time, got all those Liberals scratching their balls and wondering if they should or they shouldn't.

33 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:54:33pm

re: #29 RadicalModerate

Okay, I'll take the bait on this one.

You have one - count them - ONE elected Democratic official sharing a stage with Louis Farrakhan where both were invited guests in a town-hall setting on things that can be done to rebuild African-American communities. There will be multiple viewpoints represented at this meeting. I am quite sure that if Farrakhan makes any outlandish statements in this setting, he will be quickly taken to task for it by the host (radio talk personality Bev Smith) as well as the other attendees.

Let's compare this to the upcoming "Values Voters Summit" which will be hosted by the SPLC-identified hate group Family Research Council - headed by Tony Perkins - someone who uses mailing lists created by David Duke himself, and has spoken to white supremacist organizations on multiple times (Perkins has his own separate SPLC entry, by the way). This event will have just about EVERY major player in the Republican Party attending, including House Speaker John Boehner, thirteen current and former Senators and Representatives, fifteen current and former Governors, and a multitude of conservative radio/TV personalities.
Here's the cached page of who all will be there this year:
[Link: www.valuesvotersummit.org...]

Given the number of speakers at this event with Council of Conservative Citizens and League of the South memberships, do you really...REALLY want to make this comparison?

QFT

It does become a question of scale at this point.

There are Democrats who will share a stage with undesirable characters, and that is regrettable - all parties and mainstream groups have members who do things you wish they wouldn't. The Republicans - on the other hand - named ones - are doing this every day and actively pandering to racists and anti-semites.
Clyburn is not pandering to racists and anti-semites though, he is sitting on an invited panel about urban regeneration.

34 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:32:19pm

Good morning whatever this is lizards,

I should clarify that the intent of my post #14 is not to rebuff others for pointing out his hypocrisy, that his posting style amounts to not so subtle trolling, or that this meeting pales in comparison to the number of similar events on the right. I recognize all those things and I agree.

It is just that what Sergey and Thanos said made me reflect on my posting style lately. It's just not who I am. I recognize that I have been making some ad hominem attacks, including Tu Quoque, some appeals to popularity, appeals to ridicule, cussing as an emotional appeal, etc for the sake of argument expediency. Just because I suspect my opposition won't be able to recognize a fallacy or call me out on it shouldn't cause me to violate my own principles.

That doesn't mean I won't be countering Buck when he tries to deflect for the right. Just that I will criticize that argument on its own deficiencies, of which I am sure there will be plenty.

35 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:15:13pm

re: #34 prononymous

Good morning whatever this is lizards,

I should clarify that the intent of my post #14 is not to rebuff others for pointing out his hypocrisy, that his posting style amounts to not so subtle trolling, or that this meeting pales in comparison to the number of similar events on the right. I recognize all those things and I agree.

It is just that what Sergey and Thanos said made me reflect on my posting style lately. It's just not who I am. I recognize that I have been making some ad hominem attacks, including Tu Quoque, some appeals to popularity, appeals to ridicule, cussing as an emotional appeal, etc for the sake of argument expediency. Just because I suspect my opposition won't be able to recognize a fallacy or call me out on it shouldn't cause me to violate my own principles.

That doesn't mean I won't be countering Buck when he tries to deflect for the right. Just that I will criticize that argument on its own deficiencies, of which I am sure there will be plenty.

When there is no introspection shown by one particular poster - just slight after slight after slight in the face of a bunch of posters here (liberal and conservative alike) who acknowledge problems within their own midst - engaging in substantive argument is not pointless, but it is difficult.

36 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:30:11pm

I agree that he shows no introspection whatsoever. I would also argue it wouldn't be a positive if I became more like him in the process of pointing that out.

37 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:30:54pm

re: #36 prononymous

I agree that he shows no introspection whatsoever. I would also argue it wouldn't be a positive if I became more like him in the process of pointing that out.

Fair do's.

38 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:33:08pm

re: #36 prononymous

I agree that he shows no introspection whatsoever. I would also argue it wouldn't be a positive if I became more like him in the process of pointing that out.

I will fully admit that i've taken cheap shots and generally been an ass around here before now. I own that and it's something i try to improve with time.

39 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:43:29pm

Please don't take my comments about my conduct as an indictment of yours. I just am not happy with the direction my posting has taken. Though I welcome any fellow travelers, of course.

The general public pays more attention to appeals to emotion, popularity, etc. So as long as there are some making arguments based on those fallacies, I feel that there should be some using similar tactics to counter. IMO, that's the only way to hold the American attention span. But diversity of opinion and tactics is important also, it is easy to get carried away and pile on.

40 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:47:35pm

re: #39 prononymous

Please don't take my comments about my conduct as an indictment of yours. I just am not happy with the direction my posting has taken. Though I welcome any fellow travelers, of course.

The general public pays more attention to appeals to emotion, popularity, etc. So as long as there are some making arguments based on those fallacies, I feel that there should be some using similar tactics to counter. IMO, that's the only way to hold the American attention span. But diversity of opinion and tactics is important also, it is easy to get carried away and pile on.

I have to say i haven't notced you being particularly eregious in any of those regards. Like you, I fully enjoy and respect the diversity of opinion here - and there have been many greaqt debates. Unfortunately it can't always be pipes, slippers and copies of hardy journals - i love it when it is, i really do the quality of debate is awesome, but sometimes - and those occasions are becoming noticably fewer - some people just need hit upside the head with a wet fish to bring them to their senses, don't feel bad about calling someone on BS rather than continually trying to refute it.

41 Laughing Gas  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 3:58:09pm

What's a "white supremest"?

42 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:04:09pm

re: #41 Juice

What's a "white supremest"?

A racist with an impacted consonant?

43 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 4:08:17pm

re: #40 wozzablog

Agreed. Someone needs to wield the wet fish. While someone else can wield the spellbook. Where would we be without the tanks?

44 Buck  Mon, Mar 14, 2011 8:38:00am

The enemy, it seems is the Israel Lobby....

Friday night's event had been criticized by local and national Jewish groups that questioned why Ms. Smith, who lives Downtown, had invited "a rabid anti-Semite" to speak.

Minister Farrakhan rejected the criticism despite a post-program tirade against "those who control" American foreign policy and lock him out of access to national media.

"There's a group that is very small, but their influence is so large that they can direct foreign policy of this nation," he said.

"That's dangerous for America. Because if the Israelis don't like the Palestinians or the Iranians or whoever, they can manipulate."

Read more: [Link: www.post-gazette.com...]

No worries Minister Farrakhan... Media Matters and TPM agree with you.


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