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1 researchok  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:19:57pm

This touches a sensitive nerve,

Perception is reality to most people.

To overcome negative perceptions is a long, drawn out process. I wish it were different, but it isn't.

For example, Catholics, Jews, Italians and Irish immigrants suffered from a bias for almost 30 years until their 'integration' even began. The same applied to Blacks after the civil rights efforts of the early 60's- and while things are better, we are only now beginning to see the playing field leveled (the why of that is a whole other conversation).

Now, Bernie Madoff is an SOB but in the eyes of most Americans, he's a crook, not representative of all Jews.

The same applies to the mob bosses- crooks but not representative of all Italians.

Catholics aren't second class citizens anymore and neither are Mormons.

Perceptions change as we come to know and relate to 'the other' over time. We are forced to make an internal choice. Is the 'other' representative of the stereotype or is the 'other' more like me?

The reality is progress is slow but usually sure. Muslims will be more integrated as time goes by- but it will take time.

2 iceweasel  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:23:35pm

re: #1 researchok

T
The reality is progress is slow but usually sure. Muslims will be more integrated as time goes by- but it will take time.

But Muslims have been part of the country since the beginning:

Even if they were staunch Christians (or deists, whatever), plenty of the Founding Fathers had a healthy admiration for the Muslim faith. Thomas Jefferson, for example, taught himself Arabic using his own copy of the Quran and hosted the first White House Iftar during Ramadan.

Read more: [Link: www.cracked.com...]

John Adams hailed the Islamic prophet Muhammad as one of the great "inquirers after truth." Benjamin Rush, who was so Christian he wanted a Bible in every school, also said he would rather see the opinions of Confucius or Mohammad "inculcated upon our youth" than see them grow deprived "of a system of religious principles." Benjamin Franklin once declared: "Even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service." Even George fucking Washington personally welcomed Muslims to come work for him at Mount Vernon.

So, why all this Founding Father/Muslim love? Probably because Sultan Mohammed ben Abdallah of Morocco was the first world figure to recognize the independence of the United States of America from Great Britain in 1777.

Read more: [Link: www.cracked.com...]

3 researchok  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:37:16pm

re: #2 iceweasel

But Muslims have been part of the country since the beginning:

All true- but it is all about perceptions.

Jews, Italians and Irish have been around from the beginning as well, but in small numbers. It is only when greater numbers arrive and their economic and social impact is felt and recognized by a larger number oof people do we even begin to deal with the matter.

Further, new arrivals tend to start out at the bottom. This tends to upset a lot of people (lower socio-economic level) who in turn persecute the newcomers, refuse to work with them, etc. This in turn stimulates the new arrivals to work even harder. That results in the inevitable escalation of bad feelings. When the newcomers achieve a modicum of success, they then encroach on( certain segments of ) of the middle class. At that point, the discrimination is more subtle but no less real.

This behavioral/sociological phenomena cuts across all cultural lines with few exceptions.

4 Bob Levin  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 1:42:05pm

I've had this conversation with Curious Lurker. Feed us good food, make us laugh. Play some hip music. Really, we're easy.

Chaim Solomon financed the American Revolution. We still needed Sid Ceasar, corned beef, and Benny Goodman.

5 researchok  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:06:42pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

I've had this conversation with Curious Lurker. Feed us good food, make us laugh. Play some hip music. Really, we're easy.

Chaim Solomon financed the American Revolution. We still needed Sid Ceasar, corned beef, and Benny Goodman.

None of this is simple and none of this is pleasant to discuss because we have to address some very ugly issues. mostly as they relate to ourselves.

Jews, Italians or Irish were not integrated because of heroes, ethnic food or comedians.

Integration occurs when we get to know those who we fear for no cause.

We go to Sylvia's in Harlem not because of the collard greens but because our co worker is someone whose recommendation we trust.

We enjoy stuffed grape leaves or kefta not because the food is good but rather because we like the family behind the counter. When they ask about our kids, we intuit they are sincere- and we ask about their kids for the same reason.

In America, where you pray, if you pray or what you eat doesn't really matter. Truth be told (and outside the confines of blogs!) who you vote for doesn't matter. We just want to know you'll look out for our kids in the neighborhood, pick up the paper at the end of the drive when we're on vacation and lend/return tools.

In America, it is all about character.

CL does not carry the burden of representing or speaking for the bad apples in her community or any other any more than you and I are responsible for representing or speaking for the bad apples in our respective communities.

Integration takes time and is a result of up close and personal.

6 Bob Levin  Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:28:01pm

re: #5 researchok

I don't think we're disagreeing. There are certain rituals which accompany the--what you call the reduction of fear. And conviviality is a big part of that process.

Mass media made conviviality that much easier, with Molly Goldberg, and an entire generation of stand-up comics. All of these things reduce fear, all of these things allow people to get close enough to care about one and other.

Most Americans want to like each other, to know each other. But for that to happen, folks have to relate to each other on a deeper level than rational discussion. We laugh when a statement or even defies logic and rationality. The stomach can convince the brain of anything. Music goes so deep--it's another universe, beyond rationality.

That's the level on which people really connect. And that's what has to happen.


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