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1 Political Atheist  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:26:55pm

They make a worthwhile point, since the man is an anti religious advocate, taking his opinion beyond the personal to the public realm.

2 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:37:29pm

He's done good things and he accepted an award for that from a foundation that promotes faith. Apparently, everyone knows he's an atheist, so I don't understand why the other atheists are so upset with him.

Snipping a couple of his quotes from the article:

"It is perfectly possible to have religious beliefs and be a scientist," he said. "I'm just not someone who does."

"If you were teaching Muslim sixth formers in a London school and you told them they can't have their God and have Darwin, they'd stick to their God and be lost to science," he said.

Also:

Lord Rees said that the confrontational stance towards religion adopted by scientists such as Professor Dawkins was counterproductive.

[...]

Lord Rees, who regularly attends chapel at Trinity College, Cambridge, said that while he has "no religious beliefs at all" he believes that the Church of England is a "force for good", adding that he would do everything he could to help to preserve its choral traditions and architectural legacy.

That all sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

3 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 4:44:45pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

There's an ongoing battle within the atheist community that is summed up in the "don't be a dick" debates between PZ Meyers and Phil Plait -- some think it necessary to be hard core advocates and that ground is lost by allowing faith to diminish science in some small grey areas just to get along, and others think it best to communicate civilly.
It's still evolving, but there are some bitter feelings out there in the atheist and skeptic communities.

4 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:07:18pm

re: #3 Thanos

There's an ongoing battle within the atheist community that is summed up in the "don't be a dick" debates between PZ Meyers and Phil Plait -- some think it necessary to be hard core advocates and that ground is lost by allowing faith to diminish science in some small grey areas just to get along, and others think it best to communicate civilly.
It's still evolving, but there are some bitter feelings out there in the atheist and skeptic communities.

Ah, I see. I'd definitely side with the "don't be a dick" team, but I don't get how faith can diminish science. I mean I get it from a political perspective, like what's going on with the GOP, but I don't get it from a personal, one-on-one perspective. I mean, I don't go around getting in atheists' face mocking or berating them for not being a believer, and I'd appreciate the same courtesy being returned. Isn't this Golden Rule (or Silver Rule, in its negative form) something most of us learned in kindergarten?

5 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:10:38pm

I mean, I mean...ugh!...I meant to NOT use so many I means. *grimace*

6 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:15:10pm

Looking at my other typos. No, I swear English is NOT my second language.

*headdesk*

7 Dancing along the light of day  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 5:16:26pm

re: #6 CuriousLurker

LOL!

8 Randall Gross  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 6:39:08pm

re: #4 CuriousLurker

I see what you mean... :)

Seriously -- until you've been an atheist, you really can't get it. Atheists are about the smallest minority group there is and they get spit on all the time, all day long, and nobody thinks much about it. Most of us have thick skins and fit into the "don't be a dick" category, some of us are outgoing advocates, and some are what I class as "weak at the philosophical knees" atheists... Those are the most vociferous and nasty.
That said, sometimes being blunt and assertive is the only way to get across the message, and so I see the wisdom in both sides of the debate.
I think real atheists can't believe - it's just not in our being. I think weak kneed atheists are former believers who like a smoker who quits become the most vehemently antagonistic towards their former peers.

9 CuriousLurker  Wed, Apr 6, 2011 7:32:36pm

re: #8 Thanos

I see what you mean... :)

Seriously -- until you've been an atheist, you really can't get it. Atheists are about the smallest minority group there is and they get spit on all the time, all day long, and nobody thinks much about it.

I can understand that. Maybe not completely, but y'know, the whole Muslim thing. Still, overall (worldwide) I guess if you compared atheists vs. people who believe in some kind of god/religion you guys would probably indeed be a tiny minority.

Most of us have thick skins and fit into the "don't be a dick" category, some of us are outgoing advocates, and some are what I class as "weak at the philosophical knees" atheists... Those are the most vociferous and nasty.

That's interesting because a lot of believers are the same way, IMO.

That said, sometimes being blunt and assertive is the only way to get across the message, and so I see the wisdom in both sides of the debate.

Agreed, there are times when it's necessary to be so. It's just sucky when some people make it their standard policy. Again, I'm reminded of the binary world too many believers live in where everything is an ultimatum.

I think real atheists can't believe - it's just not in our being.

That's interesting. There's this passage in the Qur'an that says something to the effect of some people's eyes, hearts, etc. have been sealed (from belief), which leaves the question: If, as a Muslim, I believe that God created our natures—and I do—then...?

The poet Omar Khayyam asked that question in several of his quatrains:

When, bending low, God moulded me from clay
Incontrovertibly my life was ordered:
Without His order I abstain from crime.
Why should I burn then, On His Judgment Day?

That sin is irresistible, He knows;
Yet he commands us to abstain from sin.
Thus irresistibiity confounds us
With prohibition:—'Lean, but never fall!'

On every path I take, your snares are spread
To entrap me, should I walk without due care.
Utter extremes acknowledge Your vast sway.
You order all things—yet You call me rebel?

—The Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam (Graves & Shah translation).
More in that vein here.

Quite a conundrum. I don't have answers, just questions. I assume Khayyam finally found a satisfactory answer, but he never said what it was. Or if he said so one of his later poems, then I didn't get it—again (which wouldn't be at all surprising). Heh.

I think weak kneed atheists are former believers who like a smoker who quits become the most vehemently antagonistic towards their former peers.

I think you're right because, yet again, I see the same with believers (especially with converts & "born again" types, regardless of their religion).

Thanks for taking the time to explain. Your insight was interesting, so I feel like I learned something useful. I'll stop bugging you now. ;)


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