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11 comments

1 Killgore Trout  Fri, Apr 22, 2011 4:52:15pm
As the heirs of a secular revolution, American atheists have a special responsibility to defend and uphold the Constitution that patrols the boundary between Church and State. This, too, is an honor and a privilege. Believe me when I say that I am present with you, even if not corporeally (and only metaphorically in spirit...) Resolve to build up Mr Jefferson's wall of separation. And don't keep the faith.


Nice!

2 CuriousLurker  Fri, Apr 22, 2011 4:59:26pm

Sounds like a goodbye letter.

It's certainly well-written and I even agree with quite a few of his points, but I'm not up-dinging this one since his caricature of believers is...a caricature.

3 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 22, 2011 9:42:59pm

A hundred years from now, people will regard Christopher Hitchens in the same light as people of today regard Thomas Paine, Oscar Wilde, HL Mencken, Bertrand Russell, etc.

4 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Apr 22, 2011 9:53:38pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I'm not up-dinging this one since his caricature of believers is...a caricature.

I'm sincerely curious what was said that you view as caricature.

5 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 12:08:47am

Well, since you asked:

....I have found my trust better placed in two things: the skill and principle of advanced medical science, and the comradeship of innumerable friends and family, all of them immune to the false consolations of religion. It is these forces...which will speed the day when humanity emancipates itself from the mind-forged manacles of servility and superstitition. It is our innate solidarity, and not some despotism of the sky, which is the source of our morality and our sense of decency.

People find consolation in a sorts of things, not just religion. If someone finds some very real measure of comfort in their faith how is that “mind-forged manacles of servility and superstitition”? Furthermore, my morality & sense of decency isn’t based on the fear of some “despotism of the sky”, it's based on my recognition of our common humanity. Not every believer is drawn to their faith by desire for “the carrot” or fear of “the stick”.

....the pattern and original of all dictatorship is the surrender of reason to absolutism and the abandonment of critical, objective inquiry. The cheap name for this lethal delusion is religion, and we must learn new ways of combating it in the public sphere...

Absolutism? Abandonment of critical, objective inquiry? I monitor my thoughts & reactions to the new people, places, and ideas I come into contact with every day, constantly wary of my all too human tendency to make incorrect, subjective assumptions based on partial or misinterpreted information. I didn’t learn how to do this on my own, I learned it primarily through Sufi teaching stories.

I never would have encountered those stories if it wasn’t my nature to be inquisitive & willing to question myself. To seek and constantly learn is part of who I am, it is in essence my religion, my Islam—i.e. my “submission” to God is submission to the knowledge that I do not and cannot know everything and that, as a human being, it’s impossible for me to be completely objective.

I do my best, fumbling along myopically and reaching out at every opportunity to feel the disparate parts of existence in an attempt to get a better sense of the whole. I hardly think this qualifies as “lethal delusion”. Some believers don't this—that's not my fault, and I don’t appreciate being shoved into a single generic basket any more than atheists do.

I’m disturbed by Hitchens’ statement that “we must learn new ways of combating it in the public sphere”. What does that mean? If it simply refers to the separation of church & state, I’m fine with it. If it means banishing all outer displays of religion (dress, architecture, etc.), then I have a huge problem with it.

Our weapons are the ironic mind against the literal: the open mind against the credulous; the courageous pursuit of truth against the fearful and abject forces who would set limits to investigation (and who stupidly claim that we already have all the truth we need). Perhaps above all, we affirm life over the cults of death and human sacrifice and are afraid, not of inevitable death, but rather of a human life that is cramped and distorted by the pathetic need to offer mindless adulation, or the dismal belief that the laws of nature respond to wailings and incantations.

This paints me, a believer, as a pathetic, fear-ridden, knuckle-dragging moron whose brain is so addled by religion that I’m incapable of doing anything more than sitting around howling at some sky-residing deity or whatever. I find this insulting and simplistic, and every bit as smugly arrogant as the attitude of the Bible thumpers that come to my door explaining why they want to save me. I don’t run around bashing atheists because they don’t share my terms of reference, so I’d appreciate the same courtesy from them.

Sorry for the rant, but you asked. :)

6 Randy W. Weeks  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 7:09:53am

It's no great secret that I'm an atheist, but this kind of religious mocking really doesn't sit well with me. The childish gloating is, well, childish and unnecessary: "I'm so much smarter and better than those pathetic spaghetti monster believers!" Honestly, that makes Hitchens and his ilk sound petty and mean.

I only have problems with the anti-gay and anti-science religious types (admittedly a significant portion of the religious) because that affects me and my family.

The rest? Eh, believe what you want...it's no skin off my nose.

7 kreyagg  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 7:55:42am

re: #6 LoneStarSpur


If someone believes that the Earth is flat and loudly proclaims it to be so, they should be ridiculed and not treated as if they may have a point. Perhaps on a good day we should attempt to help them get the psychological help that they need.

8 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 10:01:28am

P.S.

Gus, I just want to say that it wasn't my intention to come take over your thread and make it all about me. I feel bad that Hitchens is suffering this terrible illness that is slowly but relentlessly taking his life from him. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I know you and many others admire him. He's an intelligent, articulate, thoughtful man. So are many of the other atheists I've read since coming here. While I may not agree with them on many things, I think they have some valid insights & points to make that come from their unique perspective as unbelievers.

And therein lies the rub: When they go on the attack and begin ridiculing people, they defeat their oft stated goal of wanting to enlighten others in some way. The verbal assaults make people angry, and when people are angry they're not in the mood to listen or to reason, they just want to punch back. We see this in play here at LGF every day when discussions get heated.

I find it puzzling & annoying that atheists like Hitchens, who clearly pride themselves on being rational & objective and consider themselves torch-bearers of the Enlightenment, are so prone to involving themselves in the verbal equivalent of a drunken bar fight in which everyone gets the satisfaction of kicking the shit out of one another, but no one wins. That's not rational behavior, IMO.

9 Randy W. Weeks  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 11:08:33am

re: #7 kreyagg

If someone believes that the Earth is flat and loudly proclaims it to be so, they should be ridiculed and not treated as if they may have a point. Perhaps on a good day we should attempt to help them get the psychological help that they need.

I mentioned science in my post.

10 Gus  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 6:07:17pm

re: #8 CuriousLurker

OK CL. Not a problem. That's why I just sat back and let you speak your mind. Of course it helps that I am biased towards your favor even when I disagree with you. I can understand your feelings and perhaps like I feel about you I am biased towards Hitchens. I'm sure we would agree on Pat Condell who I can no longer stomach given his frequent Muslim derangement rants. Just keep a couple of things in mind about Hitchens though. Besides being on deaths door he has been at the receiving end of some rather malicious evangelizing since his revelation about his cancer and that this letter was really intended to speak to his audience. I can't speak for him but he's really only talking about religious extremists and their adherents and not you average everyday religious person.

11 CuriousLurker  Sat, Apr 23, 2011 10:03:16pm

re: #10 Gus 802

Thanks for understanding & cutting me some slack. {{Gus}}

Yeah, Condell, ugh. You're right though, Hitchens has mentioned some of the horribly cruel things some people have said to him, and I'm sure we don't even know the half of it. Given his situation, I should've taken that into consideration and been more understanding of his anger.


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