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1 wrenchwench  Tue, May 3, 2011 5:01:25pm

You need some commas in your tag, to make separate tags. Or is that a style choice? I see your other Pages have MegaTags.

2 FreedomMoon  Tue, May 3, 2011 5:35:14pm

Interesting analysis. Just for clarification you should probably state that so-con is southern conservative. I know it seems logical but I didn't figure it out until the end of the post.

3 Bob Levin  Tue, May 3, 2011 5:42:08pm

re: #2 tacuba14

I think so-con is social conservative.

4 researchok  Tue, May 3, 2011 6:01:32pm

I would add one clarification: While many GOP politicians are absolute lowlifes, guilty of what you are charging them with, we ought to distinguish them from the voters.

There are many right leaning voters who are as moral and ethical as anyone else- and I can assure they abhor the antics going on in DC.

5 What, me worry?  Tue, May 3, 2011 6:05:58pm

My take, since you asked :)

The thing with agnostics and atheists is that everything with the tag of "religion" is regarded as a fairy tale. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about cults like David Koresh or long established religions. To a non-believer, there are no differences.

To believers, there are big differences. On one hand, you have religions based on 1000s of years of scholarly study, metaphors and allegory. On the other, some charismatic fellow who claims to be Christ, like Jim Jones, or in the case of L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer who had a modicum of luck with a few novels who then decided to write the Ultimate Sci-Fi study and call it religion.

Scientology was going no where for a very long time until they decided to market it to movie stars. There they had the perfect follower. Seemingly endless source of funds and people who perceive themselves as unique, trail-blazing types who don't follow the kinds of boring and dull ideas the rest of us plebs do. In Scientology, they found the perfect kind of exclusivity to fit their narcissism. Scientology is all about what can I do for me, not what usual religions focus on which is what can I do for others.

Scientology is dangerous, not because it has found its way into our political discourse, at least not yet that I'm aware, but because it robs the individual of both monetary funds, spiritual/personal enlightenment and a relationship with God, a non-human source of love, mercy, justice and morality. That's the threat of Scientology.

It is true, yes, that the GOP has long had a relationship with the religious right, pushing their social and religious issues into our political discourse. Namely, abortion, evolution, gay rights and prayer in school. For me (and I know for you and many others) that's a huge problem, but a different kind of problem than the popularity of Scientology.

6 FreedomMoon  Tue, May 3, 2011 6:45:46pm

re: #3 Bob Levin

I think so-con is social conservative.

hehe more the reason to clarify

7 calochortus  Tue, May 3, 2011 7:53:24pm

re: #5 marjoriemoon

As a non-believer I'd like to clarify my belief, I may be misinterpreting what you said, but for me (raised in a totally non-religious home, never believed) there is a great deal more nuance than 'its a fairy tale'.
No, I don't believe in a god or gods or anything supernatural. I do make a distinction between types of faith.

There are people who practice their faith as part of the greater society without trying to impose their beliefs on others. Presumably it enriches their lives and I respect that. I don't share their beliefs, but it is a choice they have made, and I don't think they are delusional.

Then there are the folks who either want to completely separate themselves from world completely or to remake the world in the image of their religious beliefs. In my opinion, these people are more likely to be a problem, and are often what I would consider delusional, in that they are less in touch with critical thought and objective reality.

Both Scientologists and the religious right fall into the latter category, but I agree with WUB that Scientology is not likely to gain much political power, and the religious right obviously has quite a bit.

8 Fenris  Tue, May 3, 2011 8:07:57pm

I'm mostly on the same wavelength with you here. Critics have a tendency to confuse the belief and practice of Scientology, which by a common follower is pretty nonthreatening, with the business practices of the CoS, which is solely responsible for the abuse of its members and critics.

9 What, me worry?  Tue, May 3, 2011 8:18:35pm

re: #7 calochortus

As a non-believer I'd like to clarify my belief, I may be misinterpreting what you said, but for me (raised in a totally non-religious home, never believed) there is a great deal more nuance than 'its a fairy tale'.
No, I don't believe in a god or gods or anything supernatural. I do make a distinction between types of faith.

There are people who practice their faith as part of the greater society without trying to impose their beliefs on others. Presumably it enriches their lives and I respect that. I don't share their beliefs, but it is a choice they have made, and I don't think they are delusional.

Then there are the folks who either want to completely separate themselves from world completely or to remake the world in the image of their religious beliefs. In my opinion, these people are more likely to be a problem, and are often what I would consider delusional, in that they are less in touch with critical thought and objective reality.

Both Scientologists and the religious right fall into the latter category, but I agree with WUB that Scientology is not likely to gain much political power, and the religious right obviously has quite a bit.

I don't really see it that way though. I don't consider Scientology a threat to our political system, no. But because they aren't a threat to society as a whole. I mean, if you want to follow it, that's your choice, I guess. Although I think a poor one.

The policies that the religious right support, getting rid of abortion, not allowing gays to marry, the fight against the science of evolution, that sort of thing does effect society. Me, you, everyone and that's why it's dangerous (I agree).

I know that most non-believers respect believers (and vice versa). I didn't mean to imply they don't. I have heathen atheists in my family even! :>

10 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 10:49:26pm

re: #1 wrenchwench

You need some commas in your tag, to make separate tags. Or is that a style choice? I see your other Pages have MegaTags.

agh, every online place I go to does tags differently *_*

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 10:56:46pm

re: #4 researchok

I would add one clarification: While many GOP politicians are absolute lowlifes, guilty of what you are charging them with, we ought to distinguish them from the voters.

There are many right leaning voters who are as moral and ethical as anyone else- and I can assure they abhor the antics going on in DC.

I know. I tried to make it clear I was talking about social conservatives who are politicians manipulating people, or who are voters who are motivated tospread bigotry and vote down equal rights. But I don't give anyone a pass who is showing up to vote against equal rights for me. Who is motivated by that. I don't give them a pass at all. Voters are the reason Oregon doesn't have gay marriage. They showed up! People forget that Orgeon is a couple of cities that are blue, and then a giant state around it.

Every day during that initiative season, I saw a one-man-one-woman bumper sticker. I saw five a day. Ten a day. I had to commute to Hillsboro, I saw them EVERYWHERE. I felt like I was surrounded by enemies, by violence, by nasty scum. I didn't vandalize anyone's car with one of those stickers. but I sure saw some vandalized cars. It's like seeing a white power sticker on a car to me. *shrug*

And that's just how I'll always feel about it.

basically, I am a wedge issue. And it kinda sucks being Public Enemy Number Whatever for a LARGE chunk of the Republican party these days. whose loyal voters will go to the pools specifically to deny me rights. That was the startegy during the Bush administration, they made the Menace Of Gay People Getting Married the motivator. Good strategy! Evil people. We have a sick and cancerous and hostile country, from my perspective. Makes you feel pretty unwelcome!

And yet SCIENTOLOGISTS bleah. Scientologists are not important or influential in the macro sense.

12 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:02:13pm

re: #5 marjoriemoon

My take, since you asked :)

The thing with agnostics and atheists is that everything with the tag of "religion" is regarded as a fairy tale. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about cults like David Koresh or long established religions. To a non-believer, there are no differences.

To believers, there are big differences. On one hand, you have religions based on 1000s of years of scholarly study, metaphors and allegory. On the other, some charismatic fellow who claims to be Christ, like Jim Jones, or in the case of L. Ron Hubbard, a science fiction writer who had a modicum of luck with a few novels who then decided to write the Ultimate Sci-Fi study and call it religion.

Scientology was going no where for a very long time until they decided to market it to movie stars. There they had the perfect follower. Seemingly endless source of funds and people who perceive themselves as unique, trail-blazing types who don't follow the kinds of boring and dull ideas the rest of us plebs do. In Scientology, they found the perfect kind of exclusivity to fit their narcissism. Scientology is all about what can I do for me, not what usual religions focus on which is what can I do for others.

Scientology is dangerous, not because it has found its way into our political discourse, at least not yet that I'm aware, but because it robs the individual of both monetary funds, spiritual/personal enlightenment and a relationship with God, a non-human source of love, mercy, justice and morality. That's the threat of Scientology.

It is true, yes, that the GOP has long had a relationship with the religious right, pushing their social and religious issues into our political discourse. Namely, abortion, evolution, gay rights and prayer in school. For me (and I know for you and many others) that's a huge problem, but a different kind of problem than the popularity of Scientology.

There is ZERO difference between what Scientology does, and what any megapreacher does. That Justice Sunday stuff. The state supreme court justices forced out by these social conservatives. There are prosperity gospel churches a thousand times more powerful than Scientology. I KNEW people, friends of my family, who tithed to a propserity gospel church that was as crooked as hell. Madness.

Difference between scientology, and churches selling hatred, and putting their forces behind assaulting the right sof gay people? They just have a crucifix as a logo and they aim at a different demo. That is the sole difference.

Religion is culture. religion is also power, and hierarchy, and organiztaions of people, nd peer pressure, and cultism, and political power.


Separating scientology from all the bigoted perversions of Christianity in America, I won't do that. it's identical to me. Scientology markets to rich people in specific. they just have a different market.


My mother is protestant. My father is protestant. One of my bets friend son this earth is a VERY devout protestant, ad you know him, because he's here: Windsagio. But I refuse to put Scientology apart. Scientology isn't going to beat me up or take away my rights.

13 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:05:56pm

I'm not sure I can possibly be any more crystal clear than to bold this and repeat it.

I am far more worried about Republican so-con protestants than I am about Scientologists, Scientology is a scam most people are aware of AS a scam, megachurch protestants and Republican front groups that manage the social conservative talking points to keep Republicans bigoted and fearful of gay people and Americans whose lives differ from their own, they are far more powerful scammers that can actually do real harm to real lives.

this is just the simple truth. if you preach othering me, forcing me out of a community, making children afraid of me, forcing me out of a teaching gig? Adoption? if your Good Book is hostile to my rights? Then you're the fucking enemy, and just as bad as a skinhead with a Stormfront tattoo. You're no different than a white supremacist in my eyes.

I guess there just arne't a whole lot of gay people on LGF. Are there ANY anymore? Sorry guys. hate to be the buzzkill. You don't see this shit from my eyes.

14 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:07:54pm

re: #13 WindUpBird

people wonder why I think religion doesn't ring true? Why yes, in fact it does seem like arbitrary fairy tales sometimes?

Try being labeled the wicked witch to America. Try being the troll, try being the dragon they're trying to stab through the heart or drag behind the White Knight's pickup.

15 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:12:36pm

re: #5 marjoriemoon

I will also clarify that the "problem" of Scientology is microscopic compared to the nationwide problem of denying equal rights. Scientology has no real political power. it has industry power in Hollywood, and not even a lot of that.

it's a red herring. it's not a threat.

16 windsagio  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:15:34pm

Just an aside, wanted to add this pov isn't restricted to the irreligious.

To quote Nivek Ogre, 'All the same, they're watching to entertain.

The tip usually is if your religion is offering to make you rich (by giving money!) or is predicated on putting down the other, there might be a problem there :p

PS: Scientologists aren't just targets for being 'other', as WUB said, but also because everybody DOES laugh at them already. Everyone loves an easy target.

17 windsagio  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:15:55pm

re: #15 WindUpBird

Like communism?

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:53:46pm

re: #16 windsagio

PS: Scientologists aren't just targets for being 'other', as WUB said, but also because everybody DOES laugh at them already. Everyone loves an easy target.

oh totally

And Hollywood is so rife with powerful scientologists who are nutsy, like Tom Cruise, and they're so obviously screwball and scammy, it's just so satisfying to beat up on them.

Because nobody knows any!

And everyone knows a protestant, so there's a resistance.

TRIBALISM ROCKS! DOUBLESWEET!

19 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, May 3, 2011 11:54:51pm

re: #17 windsagio

Mister Boddy's body!

20 samgak  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:18:35am

People only trash Scientology for the lulz, I don't think many people consider them a real threat to society.

21 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:31:31am

What this boils down to, is that we shouldn't cure cystic fibrosis patients because the common cold exists, or that we should ignore neo-Nazis as long as radical Islamism exists - or something like that.

Scientology harms people, and it's a big deal to those it harms. It also does have some disproportionate political influence, particularly with the Tea Party right (see Sharron Angle, John Coale (Greta van Susteren's husband)) and the extreme right in Europe (see Johan Demol, Hugo Coveliers). I didn't have to Google that by the way.

It doesn't just oppose gay marriage (it signed on to Proposition 8) - it designates homosexuals among those low on the "Tone Scale" who should be disposed of quietly and without sorrow if they refuse to stop being gay. It is building an alliance with the Nation of Islam of Louis Farrakhan.

Sure, Scientology in itself is tiny - its claims of millions of members in America are over-blown - but it's part of a larger problem of cults, extremism and corruption.

And they are still getting members and money. Not everyone are as enlightened as you think - particularly when they use front groups and psychological manipulation to gain members and money.

Finally, there's no reason for everyone to ignore one problem to focus on another. It's not like spending a day each year protesting Scientology abuses makes it impossible for me to get involved in other causes in the remaining 364 days.

22 Tigger2005  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:59:33am

re: #5 marjoriemoon

My take, since you asked :)

The thing with agnostics and atheists is that everything with the tag of "religion" is regarded as a fairy tale. It doesn't matter whether you're talking about cults like David Koresh or long established religions. To a non-believer, there are no differences.

Really? That's news to me. I can easily see differences among religions. It's true they have more in common than most believers would be willing to admit but there are lots of differences in how they perceive the world, human nature, etc.

Scientology is dangerous, not because it has found its way into our political discourse, at least not yet that I'm aware, but because it robs the individual of both monetary funds, spiritual/personal enlightenment and a relationship with God, a non-human source of love, mercy, justice and morality.

What information or insight has humankind gotten from God that it could not have figured out for itself? Honestly. Is even "love your enemies" THAT profound a revelation, that no mere human being could EVER possibly have come up with? Why is a "non-human source of love, mercy, justice and morality" a better or more authoritative source of these things than a human one? Why doesn't God ever tell a believer something that scientists don't know yet, that can be verified in the lab?

Note: I'm not a Scientologist, nor am I hostile to religion...I even work for a religious organization. But I have a questioning mind that I can't shut off.

23 Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:18:23am

re: #22 Tigger2005

Really? That's news to me. I can easily see differences among religions. It's true they have more in common than most believers would be willing to admit but there are lots of differences in how they perceive the world, human nature, etc.

Yeah. There's a difference between the assertions of the faith, which are all kind of the same-- "Something called the supernatural exists, which can't be proved, defined, demonstrated, or described well"-- and the actual practice of that faith. The latter has enormous differences.

For me, the main divide is between the aspect of religion that is honestly trying to figure out the role of god in the universe, that is honestly trying to figure out the nature of god, and the part that asserts they know the nature of god very well, to the extent which they can prescribe absolute rules of behavior for everyone on earth. Most religions vary between these behaviors, but there are lots that stress the former much more than the latter. Scientology and heavy fundamentalism is far on the latter side; Quakerism far on the former side. Judaism is relatively unique in that the rules and proscriptions are most definitely only for those within the faith, and the rules are acknowledged to be semi-arbitrary shibboleths.

24 Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:18:43am

Er, and in case that's not clear, that's a very good thing about Judaism.

25 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:38:22am

re: #21 MagnaniomousCoward

Not everyone are as enlightened as you think - particularly when they use front groups and psychological manipulation to gain members and money.

Clarifying a bit: Most people have only a superficial knowledge of what it is, and don't recognize their front groups. Cults are also very good at recruiting people based on identifying psychological weaknesses and exploiting them, and/or isolating the potential recruit. Contrary to common belief, it's not just "stupid" people who get recruited into cults. I would even say that intelligent/intellectual people might be more at risk than the simple-minded are.

26 jerk  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:00:41am

Yea well, it would nice for the Scientologists to stop running psych centers and being exempted for taxes. And it would also be nice for them to stop suing people or stalking them. Yes, I agree that it is one elaborate scam, as you say, to spend thousands to find out about Xenu™. The only problem with your argument, and I do agree with you over many other matters, is that there's not just one extreme element to Scientology. We all know Christians who are quite sane and not like you describe, but Scientology is systematic and all under one roof. And we, as tax payers, fund them.

27 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:21:41am

jerk, are you referring to the special tax breaks that Scientologist, and no Jew, Christian or Atheist gets? Or to how tax money is spent on Narconon, etc.?

28 MinisterO  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:32:40am

I'm a First Church of Appliantology man myself.

29 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 8:07:23am

re: #21 MagnaniomousCoward

What this boils down to, is that we shouldn't cure cystic fibrosis patients because the common cold exists, or that we should ignore neo-Nazis as long as radical Islamism exists - or something like that.

Scientology harms people, and it's a big deal to those it harms. It also does have some disproportionate political influence, particularly with the Tea Party right (see Sharron Angle, John Coale (Greta van Susteren's husband)) and the extreme right in Europe (see Johan Demol, Hugo Coveliers). I didn't have to Google that by the way.

It doesn't just oppose gay marriage (it signed on to Proposition 8) - it designates homosexuals among those low on the "Tone Scale" who should be disposed of quietly and without sorrow if they refuse to stop being gay. It is building an alliance with the Nation of Islam of Louis Farrakhan.

Sure, Scientology in itself is tiny - its claims of millions of members in America are over-blown - but it's part of a larger problem of cults, extremism and corruption.

And they are still getting members and money. Not everyone are as enlightened as you think - particularly when they use front groups and psychological manipulation to gain members and money.

Finally, there's no reason for everyone to ignore one problem to focus on another. It's not like spending a day each year protesting Scientology abuses makes it impossible for me to get involved in other causes in the remaining 364 days.

(Also including your #25)

Much agreed and right on!

I'm not aware of Scientology having any effect on our social politics. I didn't realize they were anti-gay or anti-abortion (are they)? I don't know anything about their political leanings so that's ignorance on my part.

30 calochortus  Wed, May 4, 2011 8:30:58am

re: #9 marjoriemoon

I don't really see it that way though. I don't consider Scientology a threat to our political system, no. But because they aren't a threat to society as a whole. I mean, if you want to follow it, that's your choice, I guess. Although I think a poor one.

The policies that the religious right support, getting rid of abortion, not allowing gays to marry, the fight against the science of evolution, that sort of thing does effect society. Me, you, everyone and that's why it's dangerous (I agree).

I know that most non-believers respect believers (and vice versa). I didn't mean to imply they don't. I have heathen atheists in my family even! :>

I think we pretty much agree with each other-I think the religious right is a danger. I just expanded too much on the distinctions I make among various religious outlooks. Apparently way too much... I do run on sometimes ;-)

31 calochortus  Wed, May 4, 2011 8:36:42am

re: #11 WindUpBird

I was in Oregon before that election and the "one man, one woman" slogan bothered even heterosexual me. I can only imagine how it would affect you. My first thought was wondering who the one happy couple would be... But on a deeper level it is an insult to marriage to limit it so, at least in my opinion.

32 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 8:45:25am

re: #22 Tigger2005

Really? That's news to me. I can easily see differences among religions. It's true they have more in common than most believers would be willing to admit but there are lots of differences in how they perceive the world, human nature, etc.

What information or insight has humankind gotten from God that it could not have figured out for itself? Honestly. Is even "love your enemies" THAT profound a revelation, that no mere human being could EVER possibly have come up with? Why is a "non-human source of love, mercy, justice and morality" a better or more authoritative source of these things than a human one? Why doesn't God ever tell a believer something that scientists don't know yet, that can be verified in the lab?

Note: I'm not a Scientologist, nor am I hostile to religion...I even work for a religious organization. But I have a questioning mind that I can't shut off.

Of course it's easy for anyone to see the differences in religious beliefs between Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. There are differences that we can all recognize.

But the rest of your paragraph really spells out the point I was making. To an atheist/agnostic, it's all pretty much BS where God is completely unnecessary. That there is no insight any human can't figure out without God. That God is no better a source of love, mercy, morality than what one can figure on their own. And of course the big clincher, God cannot be proven so it doesn't exist.

Yea, I know. I get you! I do! I'm not going to debate these points, however, because it's an endless discussion that pretty much goes no where. I most likely couldn't sway you over anyway.

Maybe I wasn't real clear why WUB was bringing Scientology into the discussion - to compare with social conservatives. I guess I don't see the connection or the influence in Scientology over politics.

33 Jerk  Wed, May 4, 2011 9:05:15am

re: #27 MagnaniomousCoward

jerk, are you referring to the special tax breaks that Scientologist, and no Jew, Christian or Atheist gets? Or to how tax money is spent on Narconon, etc.?

I'll give you a simple formula for straightening out the problems of the United States. First, you tax the churches... - Frank Zappa

I guess we agree, but yes, they should not be allowed to have Narconons anywhere. It is irresponsible pseudomedecine.

34 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 9:43:50am

re: #33 Jerk

I see. There's even a ruling in the 9th district federal court of appeals saying that the Scientology tax breaks are unconstitutional, but Scientology wasn't a party in the case so nobody does anything to enforce it. It seems to stall on taxpayer standing, and a weak-bellied IRS.

As for churches in general, the tax breaks are supposed to be for their charitable status, not for what they believe. You can start a tax-free atheist non-profit and call it the Church of Atheist Dudes, and the IRS would give you a tax break. At least they should.

re: #29 marjoriemoon

(Also including your #25)

Much agreed and right on!

I'm not aware of Scientology having any effect on our social politics. I didn't realize they were anti-gay or anti-abortion (are they)? I don't know anything about their political leanings so that's ignorance on my part.


They are anti-gay to the core, from the first books where you can read that homosexuals should be exterminated, to the leadership using gay slurs to insult their unterlings. The only orgs free from open gay-bashing would be ones where celebrities go - they might have gay friends or be gay - but even here you would be encouraged to cure your gayness with auditing.

Bizzarely, they are skeptical of abortions for their public members, but they are pro-abortion, but anti-choice, when it comes to their inner core members - the Sea Org. Since the mid-1990s, Sea Org members were not allowed to have children anymore. They were forced to have an abortion, or would be kicked out, considered "degraded beings" and subjected to a "freeloader bill". The pair would be separated and the mother hounded constantly into accepting an abortion. Sea Org "medical" staff would dress them in civilian clothes and drive them to a free abortion clinic, where they would not be allowed to divulge that they were Scientologists.

As for political leanings, most of them are Republicans, mainly because they concentrate on recruiting rich people - dentists, business men, etc - but some are Democrats too. They pushed heavily for RON PAUL, mainly because they thought he would de-fund psychiatric care, and leave cults to abuse people free of interference from the federal government. They like to stay friendly to both sides of the aisle though; it can get them ribbon cutters, tax money into their coffers, and "safe pointing" against anti-cult legislation.

35 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 9:53:21am

PS: There are a few heroic gay/bi Scientologists trying to buck the trend. For example, there was a group for GLBT Scientologists once where William Rex Fowler was trying to create more openness for them. The group was reportedly shut down by the Scientology leadership.

Sadly, Fowler went to a tragic end.

36 tigger2005  Wed, May 4, 2011 9:55:00am

No, majorie, you don't "get me" at all.

re: #32 marjoriemoon

Of course it's easy for anyone to see the differences in religious beliefs between Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. There are differences that we can all recognize.

But the rest of your paragraph really spells out the point I was making. To an atheist/agnostic, it's all pretty much BS where God is completely unnecessary. That there is no insight any human can't figure out without God. That God is no better a source of love, mercy, morality than what one can figure on their own. And of course the big clincher, God cannot be proven so it doesn't exist.

Yea, I know. I get you! I do! I'm not going to debate these points, however, because it's an endless discussion that pretty much goes no where. I most likely couldn't sway you over anyway.

Maybe I wasn't real clear why WUB was bringing Scientology into the discussion - to compare with social conservatives. I guess I don't see the connection or the influence in Scientology over politics.

37 sizzleRI  Wed, May 4, 2011 10:33:02am

re: #11 WindUpBird

basically, I am a wedge issue. And it kinda sucks being Public Enemy Number Whatever for a LARGE chunk of the Republican party these days. whose loyal voters will go to the pools specifically to deny me rights. That was the startegy during the Bush administration, they made the Menace Of Gay People Getting Married the motivator. Good strategy! Evil people. We have a sick and cancerous and hostile country, from my perspective. Makes you feel pretty unwelcome!

Yes to everything you wrote, but especially this. And if I get angry about feeling like I am surrounded by enemies? Then I am over reacting and don't I know there are more important things to fight for than my own dignity?
Fuck that. Thank you for writing this!

38 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:05:38pm

re: #29 marjoriemoon

They are anti-gay to the core, from the first books where you can read that homosexuals should be exterminated, to the leadership using gay slurs to insult their unterlings. The only orgs free from open gay-bashing would be ones where celebrities go - they might have gay friends or be gay - but even here you would be encouraged to cure your gayness with auditing.

Bizzarely, they are skeptical of abortions for their public members, but they are pro-abortion, but anti-choice, when it comes to their inner core members - the Sea Org. Since the mid-1990s, Sea Org members were not allowed to have children anymore. They were forced to have an abortion, or would be kicked out, considered "degraded beings" and subjected to a "freeloader bill". The pair would be separated and the mother hounded constantly into accepting an abortion. Sea Org "medical" staff would dress them in civilian clothes and drive them to a free abortion clinic, where they would not be allowed to divulge that they were Scientologists.

As for political leanings, most of them are Republicans, mainly because they concentrate on recruiting rich people - dentists, business men, etc - but some are Democrats too. They pushed heavily for RON PAUL, mainly because they thought he would de-fund psychiatric care, and leave cults to abuse people free of interference from the federal government. They like to stay friendly to both sides of the aisle though; it can get them ribbon cutters, tax money into their coffers, and "safe pointing" against anti-cult legislation.

Wow. More reasons to hate these bastards!

Back in the late 80s, before the WWW, I downloaded a bunch of Sea Org manuals or texts from some BBS put up by a disgruntled Scienologist. It was probably from Operation Clambake. I remember now about the abortion thing, but not about gays. Wow. Just wow!

39 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:07:50pm

re: #36 tigger2005

Why do you think I don't get you? And why are you so pissy about it?

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:39:37pm

Here are some differences between $cientology and mainstream Protestants.

1. Mainstream Protestants put their belief systems upfront. You do not need to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to find out the "whole story" of Jesus.What an amazing piece of garbage this entire post is.

2. Mainstream Protestants don't hound people who leave the faith or try to destroy their lives and livelihoods.

3. Mainstream Protestants do not use a reinforced form of delusion called auditing that only causes the subject to imagine he has super-powers while all the while getting private dirt on him.

4. Mainstream Protestants do not split up families or declare people suppressive personalities and then strip someone from the only people they know. They aslo don't set up an indentured lifestyle that forces people into a situation where such leverage is possible.

5. Mainstream Protestants generally don't make claims about the nature of the universe that are instantly seen as bunk. I am pointedly not including the fundies as mainstream, but seriously, if there were multiple megaton nuclear blasts on the Earth to release all of those angry thetans, that would have left a geological record. Of course, the fact that they were shipped here in rocket powered DC-9s only adds to the sense of giddy delusion.

I could go on, but you are so reality challenged it would not matter.

Your thesis boils down to saying that any sort of judgement of any belief system is wrong because all belief systems are equally wrong.

This is relativist nonsense taken to its logical extreme coupled with the arrogance of someone who can not understand the need ofr a spiritual connection and spewing his own hatred of such things all while pretending falsely to be ohh so enlightened and tolerant. Smug arrogant and ignorant with a heavy dose of new-agey pap and patting oneself on the back for being ohh so enlightened.

Hypocritical,

Stupid,

Disgusting.

Exactly what I would expect from you.

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:40:47pm

re: #32 marjoriemoon

Of course it's easy for anyone to see the differences in religious beliefs between Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism etc. There are differences that we can all recognize.

But the rest of your paragraph really spells out the point I was making. To an atheist/agnostic, it's all pretty much BS where God is completely unnecessary. That there is no insight any human can't figure out without God. That God is no better a source of love, mercy, morality than what one can figure on their own. And of course the big clincher, God cannot be proven so it doesn't exist.

Yea, I know. I get you! I do! I'm not going to debate these points, however, because it's an endless discussion that pretty much goes no where. I most likely couldn't sway you over anyway.

Maybe I wasn't real clear why WUB was bringing Scientology into the discussion - to compare with social conservatives. I guess I don't see the connection or the influence in Scientology over politics.

Very well said.

42 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 4, 2011 2:47:12pm

Ohh and I should add to 40,

you then go on to attack mainstream Protestants.

Hypocritical,

Stupid,

Disgusting.

43 Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:28:40pm

re: #32 marjoriemoon


Maybe I wasn't real clear why WUB was bringing Scientology into the discussion - to compare with social conservatives. I guess I don't see the connection or the influence in Scientology over politics.

That was, actually, his point. Scientology has very little influence in politics, as opposed to the socons.

44 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:29:32pm

Sheesh, man. Ludwig, the maybe the most important point you didn't mention: Social conservatives in general don't think gays should be given lethal injections if they don't stop being gay - which is what the Church of Scientology is aiming for in their dream society. Not that it's likely to come to pass.

45 Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:31:56pm

re: #44 MagnaniomousCoward

I found it kind of funny when San Franciscans were agitating on behalf of the right of the Falun Gong to practice their religion in China. It was either a true commitment to religious liberty, or a lack of knowledge that the Falun Gong are an extremist sect that embraces racist and homophobic principles.

46 MagnaniomousCoward  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:35:09pm

re: #45 Obdicut

Hehe. Maybe they thought it's just a kind of yoga shadow boxing deal.

47 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:46:22pm

re: #44 MagnaniomousCoward

Sheesh, man. Ludwig, the maybe the most important point you didn't mention: Social conservatives in general don't think gays should be given lethal injections if they don't stop being gay - which is what the Church of Scientology is aiming for in their dream society. Not that it's likely to come to pass.

I didn't know that! Wow, if that is true, they are vastly worse than I thought. Can you give me some documentation about the $cientologists wanting to murder gay people with lethal injections?

48 Obdicut  Wed, May 4, 2011 3:48:09pm

re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote

Scientology holds that anyone under some 'level' of 2 (I forget their technical term) need to either be uplifted or disposed of, and there's no ethical problem with killing off anyone who's under a two. It's not a problem, since they're not really human. And homosexuality is a disorder that puts one below that level.

49 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 4, 2011 4:19:15pm

re: #48 Obdicut

Scientology holds that anyone under some 'level' of 2 (I forget their technical term) need to either be uplifted or disposed of, and there's no ethical problem with killing off anyone who's under a two. It's not a problem, since they're not really human. And homosexuality is a disorder that puts one below that level.

Wow. I knew about that, but I did not realize it extended to homosexuals. Truly repugnant.

50 BishopX  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:38:31pm

WindupBird, I agree with you that the Scientology is no were near as big a threat as the fundamentalist christian social conservative movement. But it's largely a question of magnitude, not malignancy. Pound for pound, Scientology has been more damaging to the US than any church or denomination in the country, including the Catholic church with it's sex abuse scandal.

Scientology is the only large scale religious organization to have ordered the infiltration of the US government for the purposes of planting disinformation in it's files. It is the only large scale denomination to have attempted to discredit federal law enforcement.

I'll freely grant that the dominionist evangelical movement has done more to actually harm the country politically, but only because they are so much larger.

51 What, me worry?  Wed, May 4, 2011 7:55:04pm

re: #14 WindUpBird

people wonder why I think religion doesn't ring true? Why yes, in fact it does seem like arbitrary fairy tales sometimes?

Try being labeled the wicked witch to America. Try being the troll, try being the dragon they're trying to stab through the heart or drag behind the White Knight's pickup.

Try being a Jew. You don't have to tell me about persecution.

There is evil in this world, but it comes from man of all denominations. We have choices and too often, people make horrible ones. Even to the point of twisting religion or the word of God on its end to suit selfish purposes.

52 MagnaniomousCoward  Thu, May 5, 2011 2:11:50am

re: #47 LudwigVanQuixote
Sure thing. It's not even in their super-secret documents that you need to carry around handcuffed to your wrist - it can be found in even the introductory books.
Dianetics says

The sexual pervert (and by this term Dianetics, to be brief, includes any and all forms of deviation in dynamic two [Note 1] such as homosexuality, lesbianism, sexual sadism, etc., and all down the catalog of Ellis and Krafft-Ebing) is actually quite ill physically. (...) He is very far from culpable for his condition, but he is also so far from normal and so extremely dangerous to society that the tolerance of perversion is as thoroughly bad for society as punishment for it.

Science of Survival first says

But the 1.1 is a skulking coward who yet contains enough perfidious energy to strike back, but not enough courage ever to give warning. Such people should be taken from the society as rapidly as possible and uniformly institutionalized; for here is the level of the contagion of immorality, and the destruction of ethics; here is the fodder which secret police organizations use for their filthy operations. One of the most effective measures of security that a nation threatened by war could take would be rounding up and placing in a cantonment, away from society, any 1.1 individual who might be connected with government, the military, or essential industry; since here are people who, regardless of any record of their family’s loyalty, are potential traitors, the very mode of operation of their insanity being betrayal. In this level is the slime of society, the sex criminals, the political subversives, the people whose apparently rational activities are yet but the devious writhings of secret hate.


But it doesn't end there. Why just quarantine when you can exterminate:

The reasonable man quite ordinarily overlooks the fact that people from 2.0 down have no traffic with reason and cannot be reasoned with as one would reason with a 3.0. There are only two answers for the handling of people from 2.0 down on the tone scale, neither one of which has anything to do with reasoning with them or listening to their justification of their acts. The first is to raise them on the tone scale by un-enturbulating some of their theta by any one of the three valid processes. The other is to dispose of them quietly and without sorrow. Adders are safe bedmates compared to people on the lower bands of the tone scale. Not all the beauty nor the handsomeness nor artificial social value nor property can atone for the vicious damage such people do to sane men and women. The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable
and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough to get their tone level above the 2.0 line -- a task which, indeed, is not very great, since the amount of processing in many cases might be under fifty hours, although it might also in others be in excess of two hundred -- or simply quarantining them from the society. A Venezuelan dictator once decided to stop leprosy. He saw that most lepers in his country were also beggars. By the simple expedient of collecting
and destroying all the beggars in Venezuela an end was put to leprosy in that country.
53 MagnaniomousCoward  Thu, May 5, 2011 2:22:50am

Handbook for Preclears

The sexual sphere is peculiarly liable to cause and effect action became of the communication. Tactile is the most direct method of sensory communication. It is much more effective than talk. A close communication with a low scale person brings down as well the affinity and the reality levels. If a sexual partner is demanding or insatiable, that partner elects the other into being an unwilling came and denies his right to the effect and then makes ruin of a personality. An individual aberrated enough about sex will do strange things to be a cause or an effect. He will substitute punishment for sex. He will pervert others.

Homosexuality comes from this manifestation and from the manifestation of life continuation for others. A boy whose mother is dominant will try to continue her life from any failure she has. A girl whose father is dominant will try to continue his life from any failure he has. The mother or the father were cause in the child’s eyes. The child elected himself successor to cause. Break this life continuum concept by running sympathy and grief for the dominant parent and then run off the desires to be an effect and their failures and the
homosexual is rehabilitated. Homosexuality is about 1.1 on the tone scale. So is general promiscuity.

There is some debate whether Hubbard wanted only to put gays in concentration camps, or to actually kill them. However, with his extremely hateful characteristics, saying to "delete" them and "dispose of" them, and approvingly citing the killing of lepers....


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