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1 laZardo  Sat, May 7, 2011 12:48:12pm

That people claim to be "spiritual" in religion is a cop-out. It's just a new face on the same genocidal shit that even inspired the faux-atheist cults of personality that operated on those same religious feelings.

No two ways about that.

2 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 2:31:19pm

It's a fairly standard theology. Concisely, since God created life he can choose to do with it anything he wants (e.g., in the NT Paul's use of the pot and the potter analogy.)

3 SpaceJesus  Sat, May 7, 2011 2:48:40pm

never, never trust a man with two first names

4 Romantic Heretic  Sat, May 7, 2011 3:19:48pm

Once again it is demonstrated that too many people believe things not to be a better person but as an excuse for there actions.

5 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 3:36:15pm

re: #3 SpaceJesus

never, never trust a man with two first names

Screw you, buddy. Neil Patrick Harris is teh awesome.

6 unwashed masses  Sat, May 7, 2011 4:09:48pm

I think he meant people whose last name can be a first name, like this guy William L. Craig.

7 Velvet Elvis  Sat, May 7, 2011 4:24:53pm

I guess god is an end-run around the whole meta-ethical ought-is problem.

Then again this was exactly the kind of shit Hume was pissed about when he came up with the problem.

8 theheat  Sat, May 7, 2011 5:55:37pm
famed Christian apologist and debater William Lane Craig

Just who is this guy debating, anyway?

9 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 6:56:34pm

So what's the problem here? Does anyone read the Bible, believe that it is the truth and think that G-d was evil for destroying life He created? If the Bible is true, G-d created life and G-d took life. If the Bible is not true, then neither the genocide nor the god ordering it are necessarily true. The only way this could be evil is if someone reads the Bible and assumes that one god created life and another, evil god destroys it.

This is one of those non-events really. Something nice to be upset about on a Saturday afternoon.

What worries me is that Charles announced this on Twitter as if it was about a real genocide that some clergy man defends. What's next? Will it be the surprising revelation that a Christian believes that Jesus was resurrected or that Jews believe that G-d exists?

10 ElCapitanAmerica  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:09:29pm

This guy will only be considered a "respected theologian" in fundamentalist churches in the United State of America.

This is almost like saying bin Laden is a "respected Islamic theologian".

11 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:12:21pm

re: #10 ElCapitanAmerica

Are you seriously suggesting that Bin Laden's claim that HE kills in the name of Allah is the same as that theologian's claim that the Bible tells of stories where people did kill in the name of Allah (G-d)?

12 Decatur Deb  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:14:28pm

re: #10 ElCapitanAmerica

This guy will only be considered a "respected theologian" in fundamentalist churches in the United State of America.

This is almost like saying bin Laden is a "respected Islamic theologian".

No, the priest/preacher's first duty is to defend God. Whatever God wills is by their definition Good. The old priests and nuns could be backed into this position re the Canaanite unpleasantness, though they tended to dodge with "That was then, this is now".

13 Achilles Tang  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:36:47pm

re: #1 laZardo

That people claim to be "spiritual" in religion is a cop-out. It's just a new face on the same genocidal shit that even inspired the faux-atheist cults of personality that operated on those same religious feelings.

No two ways about that.

Faux-atheist? Is that a recognized term or did you make it up?

14 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:43:23pm

re: #12 Decatur Deb

.... "That was then, this is now".

Yeah, that's the usual "answer".

15 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:46:17pm

re: #11 Leauki

Look at it this way: since the archeological evidence is against there ever being an actual "conquest", and furthermore that "Israelites" were another sub-group of Canaanites, the stories are there for doctrinal/propaganda purposes anyway, so we don't really have to worry about equating fictional slaughters with real ones (by AQ).

16 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 7:53:27pm

re: #9 Leauki

I'll make it simple for ya. This man is making excuses for a genocide that he believes happened.

It's not about the relative fictional quality of the bible, but about this man's character, or more accurately, his lack of it.

17 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:00:39pm

re: #16 Slumbering Behemoth

I'll make it simple for ya. This man is making excuses for a genocide that he believes happened.

It's not about the relative fictional quality of the bible, but about this man's character, or more accurately, his lack of it.

I'll make it even simpler for you: I already said that if he believes what the Bible says about the genocide happening, he also believes that G-d created life and has the right to take it away again.

What's your problem with that?

It is no character flaw to be a Christian.

18 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:01:11pm

re: #15 freetoken

Look at it this way: since the archeological evidence is against there ever being an actual "conquest", and furthermore that "Israelites" were another sub-group of Canaanites, the stories are there for doctrinal/propaganda purposes anyway, so we don't really have to worry about equating fictional slaughters with real ones (by AQ).

Well that's not true. Biblical archeology has recovered artifacts of the period which they believe are either Canaanite or Philistine.

[Link: www.bib-arch.org...]
[Link: www.bib-arch.org...]
[Link: www.biblearchaeology.org...]

Lots of links.

19 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:03:26pm

Karma: -10


Leauki
(Logged in)
Registered since: Apr 1, 2006 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 192
No. of Pages posted: 0

Nuff said.

20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:04:19pm

re: #17 Leauki

It's a character flaw to think genocide is just peachy keen as long as it's done in the name of your deity. That should be pretty obvious.

21 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:05:14pm

re: #15 freetoken

Look at it this way: since the archeological evidence is against there ever being an actual "conquest", and furthermore that "Israelites" were another sub-group of Canaanites, the stories are there for doctrinal/propaganda purposes anyway, so we don't really have to worry about equating fictional slaughters with real ones (by AQ).

If there is a god. And if that god created life. Then that god can also take it away whenever he pleases. It would be a fact of nature like spiders eating insects. It is neither a character flaw to say that it is OK for spiders to eat insects nor is it a character flaw to say that G-d can take life he gives.

If G-d exists, we are simply His creation. He can do with us whatever He pleases. There is no moral issue with believing that. It is not the same as believing that we can do with other people's lives what we please.

The Quran says that Muhammed was commanded by Allah to attack certain disbelievers. I blame no Muslim who believes in the Quran for believing that those attacks were indeed commanded by Allah.

You either believe in the Bible, in which case it is true that G-d has the right to order people to kill other people; or you don't, in which case arguing that G-d was wrong to kill people He created makes about as much sense as arguing that it is is wrong to write science fiction stories in which the bad guy kills people.

22 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:06:10pm

re: #17 Leauki

"It is no character flaw to be a Christian."

It is when you support genocide.

23 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:06:50pm

re: #19 Bubblehead II

Karma: -10

Leauki
(Logged in)
Registered since: Apr 1, 2006 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 192
No. of Pages posted: 0

Nuff said.

That's true. You don't have to address the points someone made when you can attack him personally instead.

24 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:09:02pm

re: #22 Bubblehead II

"It is no character flaw to be a Christian."

It is when you support genocide.

He didn't say he supported genocide. He said he believed that G-d has a right to kill people He created. I believe that too.

Genocide is something people do to each other. When G-d does it, using whatever means, it's not genocide. It's part of the system. It might only appear to us as genocide.

25 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:09:49pm

re: #23 Leauki

That's true. You don't have to address the points someone made when you can attack him personally instead.

If it's true, then how can it be a personal attack?

26 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:10:38pm

re: #23 Leauki

That's true. You don't have to address the points someone made when you can attack him personally instead.

Well when you can support your so called "points" without the aid of a so called God who can do what he damn well please because he "created" all of us with SCIENTIFIC FACT, please feel free to get back in touch with me. Other wise you are just a troll.

27 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:12:31pm

re: #15 freetoken

Look at it this way: since the archeological evidence is against there ever being an actual "conquest", and furthermore that "Israelites" were another sub-group of Canaanites, the stories are there for doctrinal/propaganda purposes anyway, so we don't really have to worry about equating fictional slaughters with real ones (by AQ).

It doesn't matter whether the story is true or not.

The fact is that that man believes it is true. And if G-d exists and created us, then certainly G-d has the right to take away our lives again. You might even disagree with that but there is no reason why believing that is somehow evil or weird.

If you create something, you have the right to destroy it too. (Note that your children are not your creation.)

Note that the people G-d killed probably go to heaven or are possibly put back again or whatever G-d wants to do with them. It's not the same as one man killing another man.

28 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:13:18pm

re: #24 Leauki

Genocide is something people do to each other.

Which is exactly what this cretin Craig is addressing. The genocide of one group of people carried out by another group of people. The claim that it was ordered from a deity is incidental.

29 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:14:24pm

re: #26 Bubblehead II

Well when you can support your so called "points" without the aid of a so called God who can do what he damn well please because he "created" all of us with SCIENTIFIC FACT, please feel free to get back in touch with me. Other wise you are just a troll.

What "scientific fact"? We have neither scientific proof for the existence of G-d nor for the idea that that particular genocide ever happened or was or was not G-d's will. So what are you talking about?

My point was that if you believe that G-d created people you can also believe that He has the right to destroy them. That has nothing to do with science. It's theology. Do you know the difference between science and theology?

30 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:16:37pm

re: #28 Slumbering Behemoth

Which is exactly what this cretin Craig is addressing. The genocide of one group of people carried out by another group of people. The claim that it was ordered from a deity is incidental.

No, it's not "incidental", it's central to his statement.

If somebody tells you that he supports X under the circumstances Y, then Y is not "incidental", it's part of the explanation.

It's not surprising that a Christian would say that He supports G-d in whatever G-d does. If G-d exists, that's the right thing to do. If G-d doesn't exist, then there is nothing to support.

31 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:16:41pm

re: #27 Leauki


It doesn't matter whether the story is true or not.

The fact is that that man believes it is true.

What is clear is that this Craig cretin believes there is no evil act that is off limits to man so long as it's done for the greater glory of their deity.

32 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:20:13pm

re: #25 Slumbering Behemoth

If it's true, then how can it be a personal attack?

It is true that I have a karma of -10. It is irrelevant to my point though. Do you know of the ad-hominem fallacy?

If karma is created by downvotes, I can tell you why I have the bad karma. I didn't post here for years. When I last posted here, Charles was on the right-wing and there were many posters here who advocated Creationism and sometimes open hatred for Islam. The Serbia-Kosovo discussion was a typical subject. I was then in the minority position. I usually am.

If karma is decided by Charles, I don't know why I have -10.

But I expect to get more negative karma. LGF has become a even worse playground for hateful people than it used to be.

33 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:20:39pm

re: #29 Leauki

"Do you know the difference between science and theology?"

Why, yes I do. One is based upon observable/verifiable facts. The other is based upon unverifiable myths.

Not only do we have a troll, we have a creationist troll. Let me guess, the Earth is flat and is only 6000 years old and the Flintstone's isn't a cartoon, it's a documentary.

34 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:22:03pm

re: #31 Slumbering Behemoth

What is clear is that this Craig cretin believes there is no evil act that is off limits to man so long as it's done for the greater glory of their deity.

No, that is not what he believes. He clearly believes that the stories of the Bible are true. He does not believe that man is allowed to act for G-d without G-d giving him such orders. He believes that some people in Biblical times HAVE acted for G-d, under direct order. That's not the same thing.

35 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:24:24pm

re: #32 Leauki

It is true that I have a karma of -10. It is irrelevant to my point though. Do you know of the ad-hominem fallacy?

I am familiar with it, but it appears that you are not. There was no attempt in that post of fact to invalidate your argument.

36 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:26:36pm

re: #33 Bubblehead II

"Do you know the difference between science and theology?"

Why, yes I do. One is based upon observable/verifiable facts. The other is based upon unverifiable myths.

Not only do we have a troll, we have a creationist troll. Let me guess, the Earth is flat and is only 6000 years old and the Flintstone's isn't a cartoon, it's a documentary.

And the verifiable fact about that clergy man believing anything except what he said is what?

Now I am a creationist too?

The nutter level here has really gone up since Charles moved to the left. He probably doesn't see it, but his new clientele seems to be far worse than his old one.

Although I do remember that one of the old guys once decided that I was a "Muslim" (back then that was a bad thing here among many commenters), because I defended the Kosovo.

But I do think it was easier to conclude from my defending Muslims that I was a Muslim than it was to conclude from this discussion here that I am a "creationist".

Are there are any other things you think are bad? You can add them to the list of what I am. I am sure you will as soon as you can think of something.

Let me get you started: I could be a supporter of Ron Paul. I could be a Mormon. I might be a Republican. Or a WASP. Or from Texas. I could be a white supremacist. Don't be shy, call me whatever you like. It's really adding value to your point.

37 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:26:37pm

re: #34 Leauki

So what exactly is your real gripe? That we shouldn't be allowed to openly criticize a delusional crackpot like Craig?

38 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:28:42pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

I am familiar with it, but it appears that you are not. There was no attempt in that post of fact to invalidate your argument.

I presented a fact. Nothing more, nothing less. Seems the troll is unable to understand that.

39 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:29:58pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

I am familiar with it, but it appears that you are not. There was no attempt in that post of fact to invalidate your argument.

You just figured you should post some random facts unrelated to the discussion and happened to choose my profile as the source without wanting to establish a relationship between what I said in the discussion and my profile? Perhaps you feared that others could not click on my name and would only see my profile if you posted information from it?

I find that a bit hard to believe.

No, my friend, you tried to make the point that what I say is wrong because of something my profile says about me. And that's an ad-hominem.

40 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:30:29pm

re: #32 Leauki

LGF has become a even worse playground for hateful people than it used to be.

What would you consider hateful here?

Personally, I think that slaughter in the name of a deity, and making excuses for such, is about as hateful as one can get.

41 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:32:32pm

re: #36 Leauki

"The nutter level here has really gone up since Charles moved to the left. He probably doesn't see it, but his new clientele seems to be far worse than his old one"

"Karma: 3,946


Bubblehead II
Peace Through Superior Firepower

(Logged in)
Registered since: Oct 7, 2007 at 1:39 pm
No. of comments posted: 5,868
No. of Pages posted: 23"

Want to try agin troll?

42 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:33:20pm

re: #37 Slumbering Behemoth

So what exactly is your real gripe? That we shouldn't be allowed to openly criticize a delusional crackpot like Craig?

Criticize him without making up the point you are criticizing him about and we are fine here.

Criticize him for his belief that the genocides described in the Bible were real and OK because G-d ordered them. If you find that position silly, go ahead and criticize him for that.

But don't criticize him because he supports genocide in principle and thinks that evil is OK if done in the name of G-d. Because that's not what he said. But some here have argued that this is what the guy really believes.

Use some intellectual honesty. That's all.

Don't make up what other people believe in.

43 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:33:59pm

re: #39 Leauki

You just figured you should post some random facts unrelated to the discussion and happened to choose my profile as the source without wanting to establish a relationship between what I said in the discussion and my profile? Perhaps you feared that others could not click on my name and would only see my profile if you posted information from it?

I did? Hmm... I honestly don't recall doing that. Oh, look! I didn't.

No, my friend, you tried to make the point that what I say is wrong because of something my profile says about me. And that's an ad-hominem.

First, I did no such thing. Second, neither did the person who made the post. You don't really know what you're talking about, nor can you keep straight who you're talking too. Why am I not supprised?

44 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:35:24pm

re: #43 Slumbering Behemoth

I did? Hmm... I honestly don't recall doing that. Oh, look! I didn't.

First, I did no such thing. Second, neither did the person who made the post. You don't really know what you're talking about, nor can you keep straight who you're talking too. Why am I not supprised?

Because he is a YEC troll, that's why.

45 Interesting Times  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:37:26pm

re: #44 Bubblehead II

Because he is a YEC troll, that's why.

The "I hate you, Daddy!" vitriol towards Charles in his posts suggests he's also a stalker blog troll (they tend to show up on Pages by Iceweasel/Jimmah)

46 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:37:39pm

re: #42 Leauki

Use some intellectual honesty.

Oh, that's rich. If you possessed an ounce of that, you would be able to see the subtext of Craig's disgusting screed, and you certainly wouldn't be trying to spin this the way you are.

47 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:39:16pm

re: #40 Slumbering Behemoth

What would you consider hateful here?

Personally, I think that slaughter in the name of a deity, and making excuses for such, is about as hateful as one can get.

I think claiming that I am a creationist is pretty hateful. But perhaps to you "hate" is only what you read about and not what happens around you. Maybe I was called a creationist out of love, I don't know. I considered it an insult.

I found it fairly hateful that people here made claims about Craig's beliefs, claims that simply are not true based on what he actually said.

I do not find it hateful to believe that the Bible is true and to try to reconcile the events that are described in the Bible with G-d's plan (if He has one).

Read your own text: "slaughter in the name of a deity". That's NOT the same thing as the deity ordering a slaughter. If you do something in my name it doesn't mean that I ordered you to do it. In fact most likely I won't have. And if somebody advocates that you follow my orders he is not advocating that you do what you will and pretend that you did it in my name. Those are two different concepts. Do you not see that?

As far as I can tell from Craig's remarks described above, Craig thinks that G-d ordering slaughter was good, because G-d knows best. But he did not say that slaughtering people in the name of G-d is good. Again, those are two different concepts.

48 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:40:13pm

re: #43 Slumbering Behemoth

I did? Hmm... I honestly don't recall doing that. Oh, look! I didn't.

First, I did no such thing. Second, neither did the person who made the post. You don't really know what you're talking about, nor can you keep straight who you're talking too. Why am I not supprised?

Sorry. It is difficult to keep track of who said what in a many-vs-one game.

Redirect my words to whoever posted my profile details.

49 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:41:32pm

re: #45 publicityStunted

The "I hate you, Daddy!" vitriol towards Charles in his posts suggests he's also a stalker blog troll (they tend to show up on Pages by Iceweasel/Jimmah)

I could also be Al Capone or some other bad guy. Who knows.

There was no "vitriol" against Charles. I don't know if Charles remembers me.

But do make up more stuff about me. It demonstrates the issue I have with you guys over Craig's words. You simply make up stuff about the people you demonize. That's the problem.

50 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:41:41pm

re: #48 Leauki

Sorry. It is difficult to keep track of who said what in a many-vs-one game.

Redirect my words to whoever posted my profile details.

I am looking right at you troll. You seem to be avoiding me though. Why is that?

51 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:42:22pm

re: #46 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, that's rich. If you possessed an ounce of that, you would be able to see the subtext of Craig's disgusting screed, and you certainly wouldn't be trying to spin this the way you are.

You mean I should accuse random people of whatever I think is bad just because I don't like them?

Sorry, I differentiate between what Craig said and whatever I might want him to believe so I can hate him.

52 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:42:42pm

re: #50 Bubblehead II

I am looking right at you troll. You seem to be avoiding me though. Why is that?

Is it the name-calling? I don't know.

53 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:43:54pm

re: #41 Bubblehead II

"The nutter level here has really gone up since Charles moved to the left. He probably doesn't see it, but his new clientele seems to be far worse than his old one"

"Karma: 3,946

Bubblehead II
Peace Through Superior Firepower

(Logged in)
Registered since: Oct 7, 2007 at 1:39 pm
No. of comments posted: 5,868
No. of Pages posted: 23"

Want to try agin troll?

I somehow figured you were of the newer guard.

54 Interesting Times  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:44:32pm

As far as I can tell from Craig's remarks described above, Craig thinks that G-d ordering slaughter was good, because G-d knows best. But he did not say that slaughtering people in the name of G-d is good. Again, those are two different concepts.

Lulz. So if someone says "God ordered me to kill you!" instead of "I kill you in the name of God", that makes it okay? After all, who are we to judge whether God ordered it or not? God knows best! 9_9

55 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:44:55pm

Then you are an idiot. Would you like me to provide you with links to the definitions of troll or idiot, Because you obviously seem to wading in waters way over your head.

56 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:45:31pm

re: #27 Leauki

You obviously missed comment #2 on this thread, written by me. I understand full well what you are saying.

You have, however, conflated the issue of (1) the existence of God with (2) whether the stories recorded in the Hebrew Bible about the slaughter of the Canaanites is in fact actual history (as we understand "history" today.)

IOW, there could indeed be a God but she could also very well not be like that which is written down in those stories.

This is all besides any discussion of the morality of the whole idea.

57 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:47:01pm

re: #47 Leauki

I think claiming that I am a creationist is pretty hateful.

You have a very distorted perspective.

I found it fairly hateful that people here made claims about Craig's beliefs, claims that simply are not true based on what he actually said.

Simply are not true? It's easy to construe certain things from his statements. Even a child could see that he's making excuses for evil behavior.

Read your own text: "slaughter in the name of a deity". That's NOT the same thing as the deity ordering a slaughter.

A distinction without a difference. You're playing a semantics game, and doing a poor job of it.

You're not being an honest actor here. You're playing defense for shitty reasoning, much the way Craig does in the example above, and I think you know it.

58 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:47:55pm

re: #53 Leauki

I somehow figured you were of the newer guard.

LOL! I don't think so.

59 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:48:07pm

I don't want to get in the middle of your argument, but I'd like to interject something.

Does Craig say that other people deserve to be exterminated? I didn't see that. It looks like he's specifically talking about the Israelites conquering Canaan.

Also, the story isn't complete either. Some of the Canaanite towns were negotiated with and given a chance to either flee or surrender. Not all the Canaanites were killed. Remember, too, that the Israelites who came out of Egypt with Moses also sinned (built the golden calf and ensuing debauchery) and were not allowed to enter Israel. That's the 40 years of wandering in the desert. That generation had to die.

Anyway, this was about 3200 years ago and believers do believe it. Jews, too. That doesn't mean you can draw a line and say that XYZ culture deserves to die today. No one gets to interpret that today.

60 Andrew Brehm  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:49:49pm

re: #56 freetoken

You obviously missed comment #2 on this thread, written by me. I understand full well what you are saying.

You have, however, conflated the issue of (1) the existence of God with (2) whether the stories recorded in the Hebrew Bible about the slaughter of the Canaanites is in fact actual history (as we understand "history" today.)

IOW, there could indeed be a God but she could also very well not be like that which is written down in those stories.

This is all besides any discussion of the morality of the whole idea.

No, I read comment #2. I agree with you. It's standard theology.

If the story in the Bible is true, then G-d exists and the genocide described in the Bible is actual history. That's the case Craig is referring to.

In all other cases Craig would be wrong. But that was his basic assumption on which he based on statement. If that story really is true, then Craig's position is right. If the story is not true, then Craig's position is a mistake.

The other combinations are simply not relevant to Craig's statements because he already chose a combination to talk about.

61 Romantic Heretic  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:51:50pm
Moreover, if we believe, as I do, that God's grace is extended to those who die in infancy or as small children, the death of these children was actually their salvation. We are so wedded to an earthly, naturalistic perspective that we forget that those who die are happy to quit this earth for heaven's incomparable joy. Therefore, God does these children no wrong in taking their lives.

Oooo, That's what the conquistadors used as an excuse for infanticide. They'd line up the infants of the natives cities they conquered. A priest would walk down the line and baptize them. A conquistador with a club was two steps behind the priest who would dash the child's brains out.

By baptizing them before they were murdered they went to heaven.

No matter what the Bible says I don't believe God condones such actions. And any person who claims He does is speaking for another, more crimsoned and hoofed deity.

62 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:53:51pm

Just for reference, here is Craig's post on his website in which he wrote the quoted passages:

[Link: www.reasonablefaith.org...]

63 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:55:13pm

re: #59 marjoriemoon

Well from my outlook this idjit is stating that because some god ordered the destruction of an entire culture everything is fine and hunky dory and if he did so again, well, that is his right because he after all created us and therefore has the right to kill us (again) if we don't to his line. I call bullshit on this.

64 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:58:45pm

re: #61 Romantic Heretic

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!

65 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 8:59:39pm

re: #62 freetoken

Just for reference, here is Craig's post on his website in which he wrote the quoted passages:

[Link: www.reasonablefaith.org...]

I was just reading it. Ok.

There are huge problems with gentiles interpreting Jewish scripture. Is that a surprise? You pretty much have to go to the source.

If you're interested in a Jewish discussion on the topic, try this PDF file.
[Link: www.adathshalom.org...]

66 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:00:42pm

Looking at that Craig essay, he's doing lots and lots of mental and logical gymnastics to get around a problem he claims doesn't exist.

Hmmmm....

Craig is very well known in Christian circles (at least English speaking ones) - you'll find references to him everywhere on line amongst Christian discussions/essays.

Yet here he is showing that he really doesn't have as good an answer as even his conscience would prefer.

67 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:00:48pm

re: #63 Bubblehead II

The Pot and the Potter, with you or I as the hammer. Total bullshit.

68 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:03:02pm

re: #63 Bubblehead II

Well from my outlook this idjit is stating that because some god ordered the destruction of an entire culture everything is fine and hunky dory and if he did so again, well, that is his right because he after all created us and therefore has the right to kill us (again) if we don't to his line. I call bullshit on this.

That's the problem. No one gets to speak for God. This really goes back to the original problem. Idolatry, blasphemy and unethical behavior.

69 Interesting Times  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:05:08pm

re: #67 Slumbering Behemoth

The Pot and the Potter, with you or I as the hammer. Total bullshit.

Also, last I checked, pottery wasn't self-aware or capable of feeling pain. If, down the line, genetic engineering advances to the point where it's possible to create such a thing, would the human creators have the "right" to torture and kill it?

70 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:09:47pm

Seems Charles had enough of this idiot.

Karma: -41


Leauki
This user is blocked.

Registered since: Apr 1, 2006 at 1:25 pm
No. of comments posted: 210
No. of Pages posted: 0

71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:11:35pm

re: #69 publicityStunted

Because I play too much Civ...

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

So not only does this Great Potter have the carte blanche authority to destroy at whim the Pots that dishonor him, he has the power to specifically and intentionally make Pots that dishonor him.

Sounds like one seriously, emotionally disturbed Potter.

72 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:12:28pm

BTW, the general problem of Evil and God is called "Theodicy", for those who've not encountered it before. It's a classic problem in philosophy: How can a "good" God allow/command "evil"?

Craig knows it's the achilles heel of Abrahamic religions (since they all tend to disagree with each other regarding the issues, not to mention differing with other religions/beliefs.)

It is indeed the stepping stone into arguments about the nature of God, how moral characteristics derive from or conflict with the supposed omniscience and omnipotence of the Abrahamic monotheistic deity.

It's also one of those areas that yields the toughest questions for the fundamentalist believers and when you press them with these questions they can really find themselves in a tight loop out of which they can't seem to escape. Thus Craig, before he writes his essay, puts up two sample questions he's received about this subject.

And, as Craig also notes, the best way to deal with the particular question in mind is simply to dump the "Inerrancy of the Bible" doctrine. Now, he doesn't want to do that, so he has to do his gymnastics and pull-the-rabbit-out-of-the-hat tricks.

73 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:14:20pm

re: #70 Bubblehead II

No surprised. It walks into a lion's den with nothing but weak sauce, and insults the host and his company while complaining about receiving insults. Childish.

74 Interesting Times  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:14:31pm

re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?"

If I were a potter, I wouldn't intentionally make dishonorable vessels. How would I ever sell them on Etsy?

75 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:15:21pm

re: #74 publicityStunted

How would I ever sell them on Etsy?

"Etsy" being archaic Hebrew for eBay, no doubt.

76 Interesting Times  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:16:58pm

re: #75 freetoken

"Etsy" being archaic Hebrew for eBay, no doubt.

Nope, it's very much around right at this moment :)

77 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:17:28pm

re: #75 freetoken

Which can likely trace it's origins to a Babylonian or Assyrian auction site.

78 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:18:19pm

re: #72 freetoken

It comes down to the basic saying.

Absolute power corrupts. Ergo, a god with absolute power is corrupt.

Nothing more, nothing less.

79 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:18:36pm

re: #72 freetoken

People are going to have interpretation of scripture. My problem is when others interpret our scripture and do a real bad job of it. I think the Muslims probably feel the same way today.

For me, other than the obvious problems with Craig's interpretations, is that it turns people away from God and that bothers me. God is more often merciful than not in scripture.

As to these passages, Judaism recognizes the difficulties with passages like these and looks to understand them. That's why we've documented 1000s of years of discussion about them.

80 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:21:06pm

re: #76 publicityStunted

Nope, it's very much around right at this moment :)

I learn something new every day.

81 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:22:11pm

re: #79 marjoriemoon


As to these passages, Judaism recognizes the difficulties with passages like these and looks to understand them. That's why we've documented 1000s of years of discussion about them.

At least that's straightforward enough. Better to simply accept the problems as existing, rather than try and explain them away as Craig does.

82 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:27:31pm

Here's the clincher of what Craig wrote, and quite frankly why he wrote it (from the link I put up above):


[...]

Moreover, my point above returns. Nothing could so illustrate to the Israelis the seriousness of their calling as a people set apart for God alone. Yahweh is not to be trifled with. He means business, and if Israel apostasizes the same could happen to her. As C. S. Lewis puts it, “Aslan is not a tame lion.”

Now how does all this relate to Islamic jihad? Islam sees violence as a means of propagating the Muslim faith. Islam divides the world into two camps: the dar al-Islam (House of Submission) and the dar al-harb (House of War). The former are those lands which have been brought into submission to Islam; the latter are those nations which have not yet been brought into submission. This is how Islam actually views the world!

By contrast, the conquest of Canaan represented God’s just judgement upon those peoples. The purpose was not at all to get them to convert to Judaism! War was not being used as an instrument of propagating the Jewish faith. Moreover, the slaughter of the Canaanites represented an unusual historical circumstance, not a regular means of behavior.

The problem with Islam, then, is not that it has got the wrong moral theory; it’s that it has got the wrong God. [...]

So Craig, in doing his best to sell more of his books to the American religious right, finally delivers the punch line: Our God is bigger/better then their god.

83 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:28:49pm

re: #78 Bubblehead II

Don't you know? The Mark of Cain is porphyric hemophilia (vampirism). Many claim this was a curse bestowed upon him for murdering his brother Abel, condemning to forever feed on his children.

In truth, this was the ultimate blessing. The greatest gift the Blood God could bestow, in reward for Cain's most pleasing blood sacrifice.
///

84 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:31:34pm

Charles, I noticed that comment #32 by Leauki was deleted. May we please see it and perhaps respond to it?

85 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:32:16pm

re: #79 marjoriemoon

People should really stop consulting Christians when it comes to your book.

86 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:33:44pm

re: #83 Slumbering Behemoth

Don't you know? The Mark of Cain is porphyric hemophilia (vampirism). Many claim this was a curse bestowed upon him for murdering his brother Abel, condemning to forever feed on his children.

In truth, this was the ultimate blessing. The greatest gift the Blood God could bestow, in reward for Cain's most pleasing blood sacrifice.
///

sarc tags aside you just lost me there.

87 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:35:26pm

re: #86 Bubblehead II

Okay, maybe I can help. What part of The True Word are you having trouble with?
/

88 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:39:46pm

re: #87 Slumbering Behemoth

Okay, maybe I can help. What part of The True Word are you having trouble with?
/

/// All of it. Please explain "truth" to me. In all of its glorious meanings.

89 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:43:05pm

re: #82 freetoken

Here's the clincher of what Craig wrote, and quite frankly why he wrote it (from the link I put up above):

So Craig, in doing his best to sell more of his books to the American religious right, finally delivers the punch line: Our God is bigger/better then their god.

The irony here, of course, is his accusation that Islam wishes to conquer "those nations not yet brought under submission" when Christianity also engaged in such conquests. Quite successfully, I may add. And yes, some Muslims of the extremist variety have that goal, but we have them on the run presently.

At any rate, Jews don't contemplate genocide. Even during King Solomon's day, there were "foreigners" who lived in the land and he himself took foreign wives. There was, of course, the Queen of Sheba and then Jezebel (despite her ultimate fate) ruled in Samaria.

90 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:43:28pm

re: #88 Bubblehead II

Geez man, c'mon. The Blood God wants human blood. Cain gave it to Him, and was therefore anointed with the greatest gift that The Blood God could bestow. Eternal life.

/just goofing on a few video game themes.

91 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:45:45pm

re: #85 Slumbering Behemoth

Lewis is great LOL

92 What, me worry?  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:47:38pm

I take time out of my Jewy day just for you guys :>

Wonder if Lewis Black is on The Twitter.

93 CuriousLurker  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:48:02pm

What did I tell you guys about feeding Christians to the lions? Sheesh.

94 CuriousLurker  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:50:10pm

Oh, ick. Geert Wilders is coming to Canada. Gotta go read that page...

*waves bye*

95 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:53:16pm

re: #93 CuriousLurker

What did I tell you guys about feeding Christians to the lions? Sheesh.

Umm... It's lion abuse?

96 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:54:01pm

re: #95 Slumbering Behemoth

My bad. Apologies all around.

97 CuriousLurker  Sat, May 7, 2011 9:55:42pm

re: #95 Slumbering Behemoth

Umm... It's lion abuse?

Heh. That was definitely a strange interlude there. I can't decide if I'm glad I showed up late or not.

98 Only The Lurker Knows  Sat, May 7, 2011 10:00:32pm

Lizards, Time to call it a night. Be well my friends.

99 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 10:32:29pm

re: #82 freetoken

That's a pretty lousy analysis on Craig's part.

The purpose was not at all to get them to convert to Judaism! War was not being used as an instrument of propagating the Jewish faith.

He makes it sound as though the 'Murderous God Of Islam' is more merciful than the 'Murderous God Of Judaism'.

In his analogy, it would seem that the Muslim doctrine is "Salvation by the sword, if that's what it takes", and the Judaic doctrine is "No salvation for you, just the sword".

I can see why those who are Jewish sometimes get frustrated with those who are Christian.

100 freetoken  Sat, May 7, 2011 10:46:04pm

re: #99 Slumbering Behemoth

In his analogy, it would seem that the Muslim doctrine is "Salvation by the sword, if that's what it takes", and the Judaic doctrine is "No salvation for you, just the sword".

That's a good observation on your part.

101 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sat, May 7, 2011 11:03:15pm

re: #100 freetoken

Thanks bro. Sometimes I can manage to be more than just a pretty face. Sometimes.
/:)

102 MittDoesNotCompute  Sat, May 7, 2011 11:42:43pm

"It's God's (or Allah's) will!"

One of the most dangerous phrases known to man, when uttered by those with bad/dubious intent.

103 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Sun, May 8, 2011 1:39:27am

Heh. I don't think I've seen this much interest generated in such a topic since the Insipid Hoary Host of Creationists and Apologists roamed these threads.

Sometimes I miss that. But most of the time, almost all of the time, my sentiment can best be summed up by "Good riddance to bad rubbish".

104 Aye Pod  Sun, May 8, 2011 2:06:58am

re: #63 Bubblehead II

Well from my outlook this idjit is stating that because some god ordered the destruction of an entire culture everything is fine and hunky dory and if he did so again, well, that is his right because he after all created us and therefore has the right to kill us (again) if we don't to his line. I call bullshit on this.

This 'God' of his can do anything it "pleases" to any living thing that he created, just because he created it. This 'God' could create a baby, just to pull it apart with tweezers, and then stitch it back together again just to repeat the process, if it "pleased" him to do so, and there could be no wrong in it.

All this troll has done is underline and luridly illustrate the point of the article:

Because these kinds of contortions are far too common in religious morality. Because all too often, religion twists even the most fundamental human morality into positions that, in any other circumstance, most people would see as repulsive, monstrous, and entirely indefensible.

105 Aye Pod  Sun, May 8, 2011 2:12:52am

re: #103 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh. I don't think I've seen this much interest generated in such a topic since the Insipid Hoary Host of Creationists and Apologists roamed these threads.

Sometimes I miss that. But most of the time, almost all of the time, my sentiment can best be summed up by "Good riddance to bad rubbish".

Totally agreed, SB. Nice to see the back of this demon-worshipping scumbag.

Play him off, keyboard cat!

106 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, May 8, 2011 5:44:33am

re: #17 Leauki

I'll make it even simpler for you: I already said that if he believes what the Bible says about the genocide happening, he also believes that G-d created life and has the right to take it away again.

I find this logic particularly disturbing.

If I were to create a sentient computer program and then delete it as it was begging for its life that would be ok? I created it after all.

If someone asked me to kill their children that would be okay? Because they created them?

If a god(s) existed beyond a doubt and they created the world I would still not be okay with them destroying it. We have a beautiful planet that is filled with incredible wonders. More than just humans with all of our charm and flaws. We have countless organisms and incredible non-organic wonders in this universe that would cease to exist. Even if those things went on to have some sort of "meta" existence, I would consider anything that destroys the original version, quite frankly, evil.

107 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 8, 2011 5:46:27am

Looks like I slept through this one, although from what I scanned I'm not sure why Leauki got banned. There are plenty of people who think like this Craig guy and I don't mind a chance to respond to them.

108 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 8, 2011 5:52:17am

re: #106 prononymous

I we take the phrase "made in His image" to heart, and then consider what we would think of any human who acted the way the biblical god does (or for that matter, the one controlling what happens around us every day), then we would lock that human up and throw away the key.

Cognitive dissonance rules!

109 Prononymous, rogue demon hunter  Sun, May 8, 2011 6:03:33am

re: #108 Naso Tang

I agree. The god of the bible would not be a person I would hang out with, were it a person. I'd probably grab the gun and run him off my property.

110 The Left  Sun, May 8, 2011 6:37:13am

re: #107 Naso Tang

Looks like I slept through this one, although from what I scanned I'm not sure why Leauki got banned. There are plenty of people who think like this Craig guy and I don't mind a chance to respond to them.

He wasn't banned for his positions, but for the deleted comments that slammed LGF and Charles.

111 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 8, 2011 6:41:23am

re: #110 iceweasel

OK. Thanks.

112 The Left  Sun, May 8, 2011 7:36:29am

re: #111 Naso Tang

OK. Thanks.

Lots of the standard whining about "the new LGF" and I hate you Daddy stuff.

113 What, me worry?  Sun, May 8, 2011 10:56:41am

re: #108 Naso Tang

I we take the phrase "made in His image" to heart, and then consider what we would think of any human who acted the way the biblical god does (or for that matter, the one controlling what happens around us every day), then we would lock that human up and throw away the key.

Cognitive dissonance rules!

"Made in His image" means we were made with a mind capable of reason, specifically our ability to differentiate between good and evil, ethical and unethical. The lessons of Torah tell us how to spot these differences and why, like I say, there have been 1000s of years of study about it.

The lesson here is not that genocide is the answer, but that we do have to be vigilante when it comes to evil, both in recognition and action. When we are attacked, we have a duty to attack back. We don't let AlQueda regroup. We hunt down their leaders. We try to make the world a safe place. In a personal way, we don't allow evil thoughts to take form in our minds so that the lines of morality are blurred.

The idea that God indiscriminately "wipes out" whomever He pleases is not just a misunderstanding of what God is, but is rather ridiculous. God didn't work that way in the ancient world, nor is that the lesson we should take away from scripture. What God wants from humans is to get to a place of clear understanding of morality and justice. And things, are indeed, right and wrong. In fact, by entertaining evil in our minds (ie genocide), we smudge the line between right and wrong which is another reason why we look to scripture to understand these complexities and not to go off willy-nilly with our own agendas lest we become the very thing we are supposed to guard against.

114 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 8, 2011 1:35:30pm

re: #113 marjoriemoon

I mean no disrespect, but you seem to argue from the position that there is, or was, a god. The simple answer is that this premise is wrong and therefore cannot be argued with honesty by anyone who doesn't believe as you do.

However there are plenty of people who believe their god acts like a homicidal maniac, out of love, and they are who I thought this thread was about.

115 eightyfiv  Sun, May 8, 2011 3:13:51pm

re: #110 iceweasel

Geez, what a way to out-troll the trolls. Can't say this argument thread reflects well on the community. More fodder for the folks who cry that Charles bans anyone who disagrees with him and his cadre...

116 Charles Johnson  Sun, May 8, 2011 3:49:23pm

re: #115 eightyfiv

More fodder for the folks who cry that Charles bans anyone who disagrees with him and his cadre...

I could not possibly care less what any of these people think or say. When someone starts bashing the entire LGF community, not just me, I take it as a sign that their account is not valuable to them any more. And when they post comments like:

LGF has become a even worse playground for hateful people than it used to be.

It's just easier for everyone if they find somewhere else to hang out.

117 Achilles Tang  Sun, May 8, 2011 5:33:24pm

re: #115 eightyfiv

Geez, what a way to out-troll the trolls. Can't say this argument thread reflects well on the community. More fodder for the folks who cry that Charles bans anyone who disagrees with him and his cadre...

Trolls are usually the ones who whine about the place rather than stick to their guns in a debate.

What do you sound like you are doing?

118 MittDoesNotCompute  Sun, May 8, 2011 6:41:48pm

To end this Page on a high note, I leave my hope that intolera-Nazis Craig, Fischer, and their ilk aren't representative of a large chunk of American Christianity.

I'll leave it up to Lionel Richie and the Commodores to tell what I believe Jesus (and, by extension, G-d) is like:


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