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1 nines09  Sat, May 14, 2011 4:07:47pm

So his first wife is lying?

2 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 14, 2011 4:52:52pm

re: #1 nines09

So his first wife is lying?

Somebody's lying, that's for sure.

3 wrenchwench  Sat, May 14, 2011 5:06:43pm

The question of who requested the divorce is a matter of public record, if I am not mistaken. Oh, wait. I was mistaken.

Birth records are public information 100 years after the date of the event; death, marriage, and divorce records, 50 years after the event. Vital Records are available to immediate family members only- mother, father, husband, wife, child, brother, sister and grandparents with valid ID. Birth records can be issued to the legal guardian with proof of custody papers. Aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws, etc. cannot obtain a Vital Record.

Twenty more years....

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, May 14, 2011 6:01:39pm

One wonders why she didn't talk about this earlier? It was all over the place in 1996, and if it had been my father, I would have set the record straight immediately.

5 Interesting Times  Sat, May 14, 2011 6:22:29pm

re: #4 EmmmieG

One wonders why she didn't talk about this earlier?

Newt wasn't running for president*

*and that's what makes me disinclined to believe his daughter now.

6 APox  Sat, May 14, 2011 6:25:34pm

Being from a divorced home I can relate to how those events feel with everyone sitting around a table... If that's what she says happened, then I believe her.

It doesn't detract from his later infidelity and why he's a scum bag, but I find it hard to imagine what it would be like to have to go through those personal trials in the public spot light.

7 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 6:48:26pm

re: #5 publicityStunted

Newt wasn't running for president*

*and that's what makes me disinclined to believe his daughter now.

Also, his daughter doesn't address the real issue, that he served his first wife divorce papers in the hospital. That the marriage may have already been falling apart is immaterial, (kind of "duh" actually) he's still a classless piece of trash for picking that moment to slap her with the documents.

This is the reason me and my ex-wife went in together and signed with the court clerk in person. it was painful as hell but we had too much respect for ourselves to cheapen the process. We got into the marriage without lawyers and that's how we got out of it.

8 Buck  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:18:28pm

re: #7 goddamnedfrank

the real issue, that he served his first wife divorce papers in the hospital.

I think she is being very clear that he didn't actually do that.

9 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:26:25pm

re: #8 Buck

I think she is being very clear that he didn't actually do that.

No, she isn't. She's dancing around it, saying the divorce was at her Mom's request and that the break up was announced to the kids earlier. She's saying that what's been reported in the press is wrong, but in terms of specifics only mentions the fact that her Mom is still alive. Then she says she won't answer any more questions about the issue. She's trying to defend her Dad, but hasn't called her Mom a liar, and her Mom is the one that says papers were served in the hospital.

10 Buck  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:29:53pm

re: #1 nines09

So his first wife is lying?

Why is that? Did she say something different?

She is still alive, and I don't think the "untrue accounts of this hospital visit" came from her.

11 Buck  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:34:29pm

re: #9 goddamnedfrank

No, she isn't. She's dancing around it, saying the divorce was at her Mom's request and that the break up was announced to the kids earlier. She's saying that what's been reported in the press is wrong, but in terms of specifics only mentions the fact that her Mom is still alive. Then she says she won't answer any more questions about the issue. She's trying to defend her Dad, but hasn't called her Mom a liar, and her Mom is the one that says papers were served in the hospital.

How incredibly "birther like" of you to say that.

12 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:35:27pm

re: #10 Buck

Why is that? Did she say something different?

She is still alive, and I don't think the "untrue accounts of this hospital visit" came from her.

"Untrue accounts" isn't very specific, is it Buck? People have reported that she was on her death bed, the daughter could be referring to that, or to the implication that her Mom was blindsided by the news, when she wasn't. What she hasn't done, and apparently will not do is come out and specifically say that papers were not served.

13 Buck  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:36:17pm

re: #12 goddamnedfrank

What she hasn't done, and apparently will not do is come out and specifically say that papers were not served.

And who has?

14 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:36:43pm

re: #11 Buck

How incredibly "birther like" of you to say that.

How incredibly naive of you to read specificity into a deliberate lack of specificity.

15 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:46:57pm

re: #13 Buck

And who has?

His friend Lee Howell gave the following account:

The divorce turned much of Carrollton against Gingrich. Jackie was well loved by the townspeople, who knew how hard she had worked to get him elected-as she had worked before to put him through college and raise his children. To make matters worse, Jackie had undergone surgery for cancer of the uterus during the 1978 campaign, a fact Gingrich was not loath to use in conversations or speeches that year. After the separation in 1980, she had to be operated on again, to remove another tumor While she was still in the hospital, according to Howell, "Newt came up there with his yellow legal pad, and he had a list of things on how the divorce was going to be handled. He wanted her to sign it. She was still recovering from surgery, still sort of out of it, and he comes in with a yellow sheet of paper, handwritten, and wants her to sign it.

"Newt can handle political problems," Howell says, "but when it comes to personal problems, he's a disaster. He handled the divorce like he did any other political decision: You've got to be tough in this business, you've got to be hard. Once you make the decision you've got to act on it. Cut your losses and move on."

People in Carrollton were particularly incensed by the fact that Jackie was left in difficult financial straits during the separation, after her surgery. According to Lee Howell, friends in her congregation had to raise money to help her and the children make ends meet, and Jackie finally had to go to court for adequate support, before the divorce decree. In his financial statement, Gingrich reported providing only $400 a month, plus $40 in allowances for his daughters. He claimed not to be able to afford any more. But in citing his own expenses, Gingrich listed $400 just for "Food/dry cleaning, etc."—for one person. The judge quickly ordered him to provide considerably more. When an article on the hearing appeared in the local paper, many in town were incensed. On election day, a few weeks later, Gingrich's winning margin in Carroll County fell from 66 percent in 1978 to 51 percent.

In part because of the divorce, in part because of the way he dealt with others, Gingrich has left behind him a string of disillusioned friends and associates, many of whom are now willing to air their feelings. Listen, for instance, to Lee Howell, who is still friendly with Gingrich: "Newt Gingrich has a tendency to chew people up and spit them out. He uses you for all it's worth, and when he doesn't need you anymore he throws you away. Very candidly, I don't think that Newt Gingrich has many principles, except for what's best for him, guiding him."

16 Buck  Sat, May 14, 2011 8:56:15pm

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

So the first wife didn't say that she was served papers in her hospital room?

So, accusing her (see #1) of lying would be inaccurate? Saying that she said she was served divorce papers in her hospital room (your #9) would be inaccurate.

Maybe it is Mother Jones who is lying?

However, when you get the words of one of the people who was actually in the room.... you ask for a clear denial of something that was never actually said by anyone who would actually know, in the first place.

17 EiMitch  Sat, May 14, 2011 9:29:32pm

Why is this being argued so passionately? There is ample proof abound of how Gingrich is a jack-hole. So why draw lines in the sand over the particulars of this episode?

This makes about as much sense as arresting someone for multiple armed robberies, only for all of the court proceedings to focus on a single parking ticket.

C'mon! Lighten up. Let it go. Cut bait.

So what if Newt's an abysmal hypocrite?! What religious fundamentalist politician isn't?! Save the fire for responding to his latest paranoid, ignorant, fundy bigotry.

18 funky chicken  Sat, May 14, 2011 10:02:36pm

re: #1 nines09

So his first wife is lying?

She's dead, isn't she?

And what I had read was that he brought papers to her in the hospital that she had to sign, which would be the finalization ones?

Sorry honey, but your dad is a prick who is on his third wife and yearns for the golden year of 1860. Fussing about exactly which stage he was at in divorcing your now deceased mother isn't going to change anything. Nice try at a diversion though.

19 goddamnedfrank  Sat, May 14, 2011 10:15:58pm

re: #16 Buck

So the first wife didn't say that she was served papers in her hospital room?

Here's what she said:

"He can say that we had been talking about [a divorce] for 10 years, but the truth is that it came as a complete surprise," says Jackie Gingrich, in a telephone interview from Carrollton. "He's a great wordsmith ... He walked out in the spring of 1980 and I returned to Georgia. By September, I went into the hospital for my third surgery. The two girls came to see me, and said Daddy is downstairs and could he come up? When he got there, he wanted to discuss the terms of the divorce while I was recovering from the surgery ... To say I gave up a lot for the marriage is the understatement of the year."

Asked if, in fact, he handled the divorce as insensitively as portrayed, Gingrich responded: "All I can say is when you've been talking about divorce for 11 years and you've gone to a marriage counselor, and the other person doesn't want the divorce, I'm not sure there is any sensitive way to handle it."

20 Obdicut  Sun, May 15, 2011 2:58:38am

How about "Gingrich's daughter offers what she remembers about the divorce, which happened when she was thirteen, and which directly contradicts what the now-dead-ex-wife said about it?"

This isn't really setting the record straight. It's just another story.

21 Obdicut  Sun, May 15, 2011 3:15:01am

And, for the record, I believe Jackie.

22 nines09  Sun, May 15, 2011 7:03:07am

re: #15 goddamnedfrank

My point entirely. Thank you.

23 thecommodore  Sun, May 15, 2011 9:53:27am

I guess I'll stand corrected on this one, in that in the attempt to set the record straight, Gingrich's daughter seems to have omitted key facts. I admit that I'm not well informed on this issue as it is basically gossip, and I've grown to abhor the politics of yentaism, so I took what his daughter said at face value.

With that said, even though Gingrich has a checkered marital history, I think there's enough in his public record to tell you all you need to know about him without dwelling too much on his personal life.

24 Buck  Sun, May 15, 2011 11:48:59am

re: #21 Obdicut

And, for the record, I believe Jackie.

which directly contradicts what the now-dead-ex-wife said about it?"

For the record, she isn't dead.

AND you can believe her, but she didn't say that she was served divorce papers.

I don't know about your first divorce, but mine was difficult. 15 years later I still am required to take out the garbage.

25 Buck  Sun, May 15, 2011 11:52:55am

re: #18 funky chicken

She's dead, isn't she?

And what I had read was that he brought papers to her in the hospital that she had to sign, which would be the finalization ones?

She's not dead, and she never said that papers were brought to her that were finalized or otherwise.

Perhaps the subject of the terms of the divorce came up. Perhaps not.

It clearly has been magnified until he is the devil himself...

26 Obdicut  Sun, May 15, 2011 12:30:10pm

re: #24 Buck

She said this:

By September, I went into the hospital for my third surgery. The two girls came to see me, and said Daddy is downstairs and could he come up? When he got there, he wanted to discuss the terms of the divorce while I was recovering from the surgery ... To say I gave up a lot for the marriage is the understatement of the year."

Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers. He did want to discuss the terms, while she was recovering.

re: #25 Buck


It clearly has been magnified until he is the devil himself...

Really? Can you point out where anyone said anything close to that?

27 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:23:20pm

re: #26 Obdicut

She said this:

Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers. He did want to discuss the terms, while she was recovering.

re: #25 Buck

Really? Can you point out where anyone said anything close to that?

Don't forget:

"He can say that we had been talking about [a divorce] for 10 years, but the truth is that it came as a complete surprise,"

He walks out in the Spring of that year. That September he comes, with their kids, to her hospital room and wants to discuss divorce. Her daughter may have seen it coming, but she clearly didn't. This isn't surprising, kids are often finely attuned to impending doom because they're exposed to both sides even when both sides aren't speaking to each other. She was thirteen then and feels some nebulous need to defend her father now, though she's being incredibly vague about which allegations she's specifically contesting.

Either way, Newt's behavior was a completely disgusting, tactless move by a fantastically classless asshole. If he gave even half a rat's ass about either her or his own dignity he would have found another time and place to spring that on the woman who bore his children.

28 Buck  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:32:43pm

During the heat of the moment, during a divorce a lot is said.

Simple fact. It has been reported many times that he served her with the divorce papers in the hospital while she was on her death bed.

No one who was there has said that. It was simply made up in order to demonize the man.

you can try and walk it back with "Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers" but that is exactly what the rumour was.

During a divorce EVERYTHING seems disgusting.

29 Obdicut  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:35:33pm

re: #28 Buck

you can try and walk it back with "Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers" but that is exactly what the rumour was.

Given that I never made that claim, I'm not trying to walk anything back, Buck.

Why do you always have to lie?

30 Buck  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:44:49pm

re: #29 Obdicut

Given that I never made that claim, I'm not trying to walk anything back, Buck.

Why do you always have to lie?

OK, then be specific... what did you mean when you said:

which directly contradicts what the now-dead-ex-wife said about it?

31 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:46:15pm

re: #28 Buck

During the heat of the moment, during a divorce a lot is said.

Simple fact. It has been reported many times that he served her with the divorce papers in the hospital while she was on her death bed.

No one who was there has said that. It was simply made up in order to demonize the man.

you can try and walk it back with "Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers" but that is exactly what the rumour was.

During a divorce EVERYTHING seems disgusting.

His own close friend Lee Howell related the story about the legal pad and him trying to get her signature. The rumor was not limited to "divorce papers" Buck, as you've so diligently pointed out, there was a rumor about her being on her death bed. Jackie herself has said it came as a "complete surprise," is her daughter calling her a liar or does her daughter simply have a recollection of not being surprised, having likely been primed by her father to expect that after ten years of talk finality was approaching? The fact is that you have some need to read specificity into the daughter's incredibly vague statement, in which she mentions the fact that her mother is alive but never mentions "divorce papers" once. You have some pathological need to infer something that she, rather deliberately, did not specifically say.

32 goddamnedfrank  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:50:08pm

re: #30 Buck

OK, then be specific... what did you mean when you said:

Probably this:

"He can say that we had been talking about [a divorce] for 10 years, but the truth is that it came as a complete surprise,"

Come on Buck, you're not this stupid. You can read from one post to the next, you knew exactly what Obdicut was referring to.

33 Obdicut  Sun, May 15, 2011 1:53:45pm

re: #30 Buck

OK, then be specific

That is seriously your response to lying, and claiming I was walking something back, Buck?

I never claimed she was served with divorce papers. What his ex-wife, and friend, said, was that he wanted to talk about the terms of the divorce with her while she was in the hospital bed.

The daughter's story about how she was told about the divorce contradicts what the wife said, which was that the divorce came as a total surprise to her. It may be that the wife is misremembering, or that the daughter is.

However, if you read the statement by the daughter, there is actually nothing in there about the hospital visit. She says there are untruths about it, but she doesn't actually cite any. So she hasn't, actually, helped to set the record straight.

I am fine with respecting her privacy, and that of her mother, and not prying into their life any more than this. This is not the worst thing Gingrich has done, and it doesn't need this in order to point out what a hypocrite he is.

We're never going to know the truth of what happened in the hospital room.

But please don't stoop to lying and claiming I'm walking claims I never made back, or that anyone is making Gingrich out to be the devil himself. He's not a devil. He's a vain hypocrite.

34 Buck  Sun, May 15, 2011 8:57:46pm

re: #33 Obdicut

Once again this comes down to you and speaking a different language. Saying "Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers. " is in itself a phrase that is "walking back" a position.

Secondly, using the term devil doesn't mean that anyone actually put him in a red costume with horns, or that he was actually the master of the underworld. It is an expression. Not a lie, just an expression.

35 Dancing along the light of day  Sun, May 15, 2011 9:01:05pm

re: #34 Buck

Flogging, yet another, dead horse thread.

36 Obdicut  Mon, May 16, 2011 2:32:57am

re: #34 Buck

Once again this comes down to you and speaking a different language. Saying "Perhaps he didn't serve her with papers. " is in itself a phrase that is "walking back" a position.

Dude. I never held the position. I can't walk it back. I can't walk back from a place I never occupied.


Secondly, using the term devil doesn't mean that anyone actually put him in a red costume with horns, or that he was actually the master of the underworld. It is an expression. Not a lie, just an expression.

Still a lie, since nobody is saying anything hyperbolically bad about Gingrich, at all. You seriously think that saying someone handled their divorce selfishly is making them out to be the devil himself?


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