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1 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 5:50:13am

Wow. Ben Stein is a complete dick.

2 Interesting Times  Wed, May 18, 2011 6:01:18am

Were it not for this site's posting rules, I'd offer a most colorful commentary as to what I'd like to see Ben Stein experience in response to this.

For now, I'll just repeat what I said when I first learned of his execrable argument: Ben Stein is a victim-blaming festering pile of Fournier gangrene goo.

3 theheat  Wed, May 18, 2011 6:14:47am

Pimping conservatism defaults to blaming women, first. That's the place they come from. It doesn't matter what the man did, or his history of doing bad things, somehow this woman cannot be trusted to tell the truth about this creep doing the same ole bad things he always did to her.

Ben Stein is the same guy that believes in creationism, and that Hitler was inspired to do all the bad things he did because of Darwin's theory of evolution.

Frankly, I'd be more surprised if his opinion on the matter was anything different. That would mean he was open to facts, that dirty tool of godless lefties.

4 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, May 18, 2011 6:15:54am

re: #3 theheat

There you go again, with your crazy liberal bias depending on facts like that.

5 theheat  Wed, May 18, 2011 6:41:42am

re: #4 iceweasel

I think I'd rather call myself a conservative and let all my socially liberal ideas and fondness for science and my atheism and the fact I refuse to vote GOP make me the unique snowflake in the room.

You can't call yourself a conservative! I won't let you!

Yes I can.

No, you can't!

Can, can, can, yes I can times infinity. I can if I want. And you can't do anything about it.

hyperventilates, cahses own tail until gets sick and throws up

6 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, May 18, 2011 6:48:19am

re: #5 theheat

Hmm, you make a good case. I'm going to look into this business of calling myself a conservative. You'll always be a special snowflake to me. :-)

7 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 10:55:01am

I am not going to defend Ben Stein, BUT you only think he has "a pattern of sexual assaults dating to at least 2002" because someone told you. Do you think anyone has checked to make sure it is true? They don't have to. They just keep repeating it (like you did) with an "alleged" in front of it.

That part is really no more than gossip.

Fact is this guy was pulled off a plane. All we know is he has in the end been accused of "attempted rape". We do not know of any evidence at all that would support it.

Yes, we want to believe the victim, but justice has to be blind, and this guy deserves that there be actual evidence before he is accused. Clearly there was zero actual investigation before he was grabbed and accused of sodomy (of all things...) in headlines all over the world.

I would prefer that the police, prosecutors, and defense lawyers are given a chance to do their jobs before the world speculates and destroys a persons reputation with what is so far no more than gossip.

-------------------
Please note, I am not blaming the victim, or defending a rapist. I am just trying to separate truth from fiction. So far I am not seeing others doing that.

8 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 11:10:39am

BTW, I was at least consistent when Al Gore found himself in almost the exact same situation. How many people questioned the woman's account then?

9 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 11:38:51am

re: #8 Buck

BTW, I was at least consistent when Al Gore found himself in almost the exact same situation. How many people questioned the woman's account then?

How do you feel about Julian Assange?

10 angel Graham  Wed, May 18, 2011 11:39:01am

re: #7 Buck

I am not going to defend Ben Stein, BUT you only think he has "a pattern of sexual assaults dating to at least 2002" because someone told you. Do you think anyone has checked to make sure it is true? They don't have to. They just keep repeating it (like you did) with an "alleged" in front of it.

That part is really no more than gossip.

Fact is this guy was pulled off a plane. All we know is he has in the end been accused of "attempted rape". We do not know of any evidence at all that would support it.

Yes, we want to believe the victim, but justice has to be blind, and this guy deserves that there be actual evidence before he is accused. Clearly there was zero actual investigation before he was grabbed and accused of sodomy (of all things...) in headlines all over the world.

I would prefer that the police, prosecutors, and defense lawyers are given a chance to do their jobs before the world speculates and destroys a persons reputation with what is so far no more than gossip.

---
Please note, I am not blaming the victim, or defending a rapist. I am just trying to separate truth from fiction. So far I am not seeing others doing that.

Well, there is evidence that this is a pattern with the IMF Chief. (Time magazine article: Strauss-Kahn's Womanizing: Why France was Silent about it. )

That alone makes it worth at least taking a look at and investigating. Is the man innocent until proven guilty? I hope so. In my book he is, but there are things that are already public knowledge that may color the view of many on just how innocent he could be...or how guilty they believe he is. Note: I find Time Magazine to be a credible piece of journalism. Except on what I have perceived as rare and brief lapses of judgment they appear to do a good job of verifying facts before posting/printing things.

I don't see you defending the reputation of the chambermaid at all in this. Why is it that you think the accused is the only one whose reputation must be defended. I'd like to see the victim's reputation defended more.

I wonder at what point you consider a source credible, since in all cases, it's is as you say; "Someone telling you something" as in why people choose to believe that Strauss-Kahn has a history or pattern of sexual assaults. Are we to simply assume that no matter how much proof is shown, that the person cannot possibly have done this, even if convicted of crimes...(Not saying Strauss-Kahn has been, since to my knowledge he has not...but) because it is a matter of "someone saying so." Are we to assume you mean that because a judge tells us that "so and so" has been convicted in the past for sexual assault, that now, because it is just "someone's words" that the pattern which is obvious is to be rendered unusable due only to the fact that it is "someone's words."

11 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Wed, May 18, 2011 11:52:11am

WIN

BEN STEIN'S

MONEY


lol who cares what a former bit actor and game show host says about anything, he's a punchline, he's a tshirt

And "economic" guru? he's a retardate, he's a buffoon, he got the economic prediction of the recession EXACTLY ASS WRONG

But Republicans fail upwards, the dumber you are as a Republican grandstander, commentator, or politician, the better you do

12 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 11:58:54am

re: #9 jamesfirecat

How do you feel about Julian Assange?

very consistent, the police, prosecutors, and defense lawyers have to be given a chance to do their jobs. In that case he is resisting the process, and drawing attention to the case.

13 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:08:03pm

re: #10 sadangel

a matter of "someone saying so."

Really when you read that article, don't you see that the "history" is all third hand rumor and gossip?

Those people, telling TIME what someone else told them are really not bringing up any evidence. You miss the point that anyone can say that "someone told them" whatever they want.

The whole "history" thing is all ....a matter of "someone saying so."

I don't see you defending the reputation of the chambermaid at all in this.

Her name is withheld from publication right? Her identity is protected? right? I am not sullying her reputation, I am saying that BEFORE you give a whole bunch of "alleged" details to the press, maybe there should be some real evidence.

14 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:10:27pm

re: #12 Buck

very consistent, the police, prosecutors, and defense lawyers have to be given a chance to do their jobs. In that case he is resisting the process, and drawing attention to the case.

Luckily whatever his actions in regard to the case, he still enjoys the right to a fair trial (and if he is suspected of obstructing justice a fair trial when it comes to that) and he should be judged based on the evidence alone regardless of his connections to wikileaks. Don't you agree?

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:15:02pm

re: #7 Buck

I am not going to defend Ben Stein, BUT you only think he has "a pattern of sexual assaults dating to at least 2002" because someone told you. Do you think anyone has checked to make sure it is true? They don't have to. They just keep repeating it (like you did) with an "alleged" in front of it.

That part is really no more than gossip.

Fact is this guy was pulled off a plane. All we know is he has in the end been accused of "attempted rape". We do not know of any evidence at all that would support it.

Yes, we want to believe the victim, but justice has to be blind, and this guy deserves that there be actual evidence before he is accused. Clearly there was zero actual investigation before he was grabbed and accused of sodomy (of all things...) in headlines all over the world.

I would prefer that the police, prosecutors, and defense lawyers are given a chance to do their jobs before the world speculates and destroys a persons reputation with what is so far no more than gossip.

---
Please note, I am not blaming the victim, or defending a rapist. I am just trying to separate truth from fiction. So far I am not seeing others doing that.

Actually, almost everyone discussing the case here has been extremely clear that DSK is not guilty only because he's been charged, and everyone on this thread has limited themselves to discussing how out of line Ben Stein was. He IS blaming the alleged victim, and presuming DSK innocent because he's a rich man with a big job.

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:17:19pm

re: #13 Buck

Really when you read that article, don't you see that the "history" is all third hand rumor and gossip?

Those people, telling TIME what someone else told them are really not bringing up any evidence. You miss the point that anyone can say that "someone told them" whatever they want.

The whole "history" thing is all ...a matter of "someone saying so."

Her name is withheld from publication right? Her identity is protected? right? I am not sullying her reputation, I am saying that BEFORE you give a whole bunch of "alleged" details to the press, maybe there should be some real evidence.

Buck, tell me why you give a shit about what happens to some French socialist, because I KNOW you would not be playing your spin game to defend Al Gore or Assange.

17 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:17:52pm

re: #13 Buck

Testimony really is evidence, Buck. It really, really is. Separate people making the same allegation-- one having done so back in 2007-- does give it more credibility.

18 What, me worry?  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:22:33pm

I wonder if Buck would give the same non-defense defense (?) for the Miami Imam who they just hauled off to the pokey for ALLEGEDLY conspiring with the Pakistani Taliban.

Yes, Buck, we know everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Your point is what now? Let's not make the rapist feel bad? How about the Al-Queda puppet? Same sympathy?

19 What, me worry?  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:32:30pm

re: #10 sadangel

Bravo!

20 Interesting Times  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:34:34pm

Dominique Strauss-Kahn to face fresh sex assault complaint

Tristane Banon previously described the attack, which happened when she was in her early 20s, in a television programme in 2007, when she called Strauss-Kahn, whose name was bleeped out, a "rutting chimpanzee."

She says she consulted a lawyer at the time, but was persuaded not to take action by her mother, a regional councillor in the Socialist party and friend of the Strauss-Kahn family.

So how do professional writers rank on Ben Stein's hierarchy of economic class and credibility? 9_9

21 What, me worry?  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:37:17pm

re: #20 publicityStunted

Dominique Strauss-Kahn to face fresh sex assault complaint

So how do professional writers rank on Ben Stein's hierarchy of economic class and credibility? 9_9

You know, it makes my heart ache. Rich, white guys can't get a break in this country. All these alleged accusations! Outlandish! I think someone should take up a collection or form a club or sumfin. (I'd love to form a CLUB personally...)

22 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:39:04pm

re: #17 Obdicut

Testimony really is evidence, Buck. It really, really is. Separate people making the same allegation-- one having done so back in 2007-- does give it more credibility.

Someone gave testimony in 2007? I might have missed that in the TIME article.

23 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:44:05pm

re: #22 Buck

Oh god, now you're going to nitpick the word 'testimony'.

I'm not judging the guy guilty. I am judging him worthy of arrest, and denial of bail, since he was specifically attempting to leave the country. It's pretty goddamn obvious that if you had to pull someone off a plane to arrest them, that they're a flight risk.

24 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:44:45pm

re: #18 marjoriemoon

I wonder if Buck would give the same non-defense defense (?) for the Miami Imam who they just hauled off to the pokey for ALLEGEDLY conspiring with the Pakistani Taliban.

Yes, Buck, we know everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Your point is what now? Let's not make the rapist feel bad? How about the Al-Queda puppet? Same sympathy?

Nonsense. I don't even know about that story at all. Would I say that BEFORE information is sent to the press about this person, there should be real evidence to support the charges? Of course. I would say that for the devil himself.

"Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! "

25 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:45:40pm

re: #24 Buck

Nonsense. I don't even know about that story at all. Would I say that BEFORE information is sent to the press about this person, there should be real evidence to support the charges? Of course. I would say that for the devil himself.

"Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! "

In what way has this man been denied the benefit of the law in your eyes Buck?

26 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:45:41pm

re: #24 Buck

Everyone is giving him benefit of law. He'll get a fair trial. That's the benefit of the law, and no one is suggesting we do otherwise.

27 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:46:07pm

re: #23 Obdicut

Oh god, now you're going to nitpick the word 'testimony'.

I'm not judging the guy guilty. I am judging him worthy of arrest, and denial of bail, since he was specifically attempting to leave the country. It's pretty goddamn obvious that if you had to pull someone off a plane to arrest them, that they're a flight risk.

Off topic. I am talking about the "history" angle.

28 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:49:21pm

re: #25 jamesfirecat

In what way has this man been denied the benefit of the law in your eyes Buck?

The way he has been treated by the police (for example immediately telling the press that he is accused of sodomy) has been highly prejudicial.

29 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:51:12pm

re: #28 Buck

The way he has been treated by the police (for example immediately telling the press that he is accused of sodomy) has been highly prejudicial.

Can you please find for me where it says that it is illegal for the cops to tell the press what someone they are holding has been accused of?

In fact isn't the entire point of the Hapeus Corpus that the cops HAVE TO TELL THE PRESS WHAT SOMEONE THEY ARE ARRESTING IS ACCUSED OF?

30 sagehen  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:51:59pm

re: #24 Buck

Nonsense. I don't even know about that story at all. Would I say that BEFORE information is sent to the press about this person, there should be real evidence to support the charges? Of course. I would say that for the devil himself.

"Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! "

real evidence:

moments after the incident -- immediately -- the woman reported to her supervisor in tears. The police were called. The woman was taken to the hospital, where a rape kit was taken, there's physical marks on her consistent with her statement, and DNA was present. She picked the man out of a lineup. Electronic card keys (both hers and his) tell when doors were open or closed, who opened them. The hotel has video cameras at stairways and in elevators.

That's what we call real evidence.

31 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:55:24pm

re: #28 Buck

The way he has been treated by the police (for example immediately telling the press that he is accused of sodomy) has been highly prejudicial.

It is exactly normal in every goddamn way. It has been ruled on, repeatedly, in US law to not be prejudicial. There will be a jury chosen who are sufficiently ignorant of the case and accusations.

You are wrong.

32 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:56:59pm

re: #29 jamesfirecat

Can you please find for me where it says that it is illegal for the cops to tell the press what someone they are holding has been accused of?

In fact isn't the entire point of the Hapeus Corpus that the cops HAVE TO TELL THE PRESS WHAT SOMEONE THEY ARE ARRESTING IS ACCUSED OF?

No, they have to tell you what you are being charged with....and that isn't habeas corpus.

In fact, it is often better to keep the press out of it until you have all the facts. For the good of both sides.

33 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:58:27pm

re: #32 Buck

No, they have to tell you what you are being charged with...and that isn't habeas corpus.

In fact, it is often better to keep the press out of it until you have all the facts. For the good of both sides.

Oh, well in that case I say that there should be a law that says the cops have to tell the press what you're being charged with, it sounds like a good way to keep them honest in my opinion.

34 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 12:59:13pm

re: #29 jamesfirecat

Can you please find for me where it says that it is illegal for the cops to tell the press what someone they are holding has been accused of?

In fact isn't the entire point of the Hapeus Corpus habeas corpus that the cops HAVE TO TELL THE PRESS WHAT SOMEONE THEY ARE ARRESTING IS ACCUSED OF?

Sorry. Legal pet peeve. And Buck is, in fact, correct that informing the press is not to point of the writ.

35 sagehen  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:04:19pm

re: #32 Buck

No, they have to tell you what you are being charged with...and that isn't habeas corpus.

In fact, it is often better to keep the press out of it until you have all the facts. For the good of both sides.

So when a world-famous man, immensely powerful, is pulled off an airplane by police, in full view of other wealthy powerful people who know who he is and where he's flying and what meetings he's expected to attend on Monday... then he's marched away in handcuffs -- if people want to know why, the police response should be "We're not at liberty to say."

Sure, that won't send the conspiracy-minded into a frenzy.

36 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:07:16pm

re: #30 sagehen

real evidence:

moments after the incident -- immediately -- the woman reported to her supervisor in tears. The police were called. The woman was taken to the hospital, where a rape kit was taken, there's physical marks on her consistent with her statement, and DNA was present. She picked the man out of a lineup. Electronic card keys (both hers and his) tell when doors were open or closed, who opened them. The hotel has video cameras at stairways and in elevators.

That's what we call real evidence.

Well, you have more information than I do. I have read the complaint. It didn't have that much detail. I certainly hope you are right, and they have all that you say. Especially the door open and close stuff.

I know that the last time I stayed at a fancy hotel, the maid didn't close the door behind her when she came to clean.

37 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:08:06pm

I just checked my local paper, specifically looking at the stories of arrests. In every single instance, the charges were stated in the article. Just because this dude is high profile doesn't mean he gets special treatment.

38 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:08:30pm

re: #35 sagehen

Sure, that won't send the conspiracy-minded into a frenzy.

Who cares, when a persons reputation and life is on the line, you should care about "the conspiracy-minded"?

39 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:11:07pm

re: #36 Buck

Well, you have more information than I do. I have read the complaint. It didn't have that much detail. I certainly hope you are right, and they have all that you say. Especially the door open and close stuff.

I know that the last time I stayed at a fancy hotel, the maid didn't close the door behind her when she came to clean.

They yanked the head of the IMF off of a plane. I'd assume anyone OKing that must have been pretty confident that the story was going to hold up, since the blowback over getting this wrong would be anything but minor.

40 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:14:44pm

re: #37 Sionainn

I just checked my local paper, specifically looking at the stories of arrests. In every single instance, the charges were stated in the article. Just because this dude is high profile doesn't mean he gets special treatment.

It is a timing issue. You don't know when the paper is told the charges... and in this case it was not the charges that were told to the press. You will see a bunch of reports of him being charged with 'sodomy with a maid'. I am not even sure that is illegal in Manhattan. Clearly attempted rape, sexual abuse, and unlawful imprisonment are....

"IMF head pulled off plane, arrested in alleged sodomy of hotel maid".

It does surprise me to see a bunch of "the cops must know what they are doing" from this group.

41 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:17:01pm

re: #33 jamesfirecat

Oh, well in that case I say that there should be a law that says the cops have to tell the press what you're being charged with, it sounds like a good way to keep them honest in my opinion.

What about before you are charged? What about before they even speak to you or your lawyer? Do you think the cops should have to report to the press then as well?

Think about what you are saying?

42 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #40 Buck

He's not charged with sodomy, but forcible sodomy.

43 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:18:23pm

re: #40 Buck

The cops didn't do anything wrong in this arrest, at all.

44 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:19:22pm

re: #41 Buck

What about before you are charged? What about before they even speak to you or your lawyer? Do you think the cops should have to report to the press then as well?

Think about what you are saying?


Sorry Buck I'm a little dim today, you'll have to do it for me.

Explain to me why this is a bad idea. I fail to see why transparency in these maters is a bad thing....

45 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:20:41pm

re: #41 Buck

What about before you are charged? What about before they even speak to you or your lawyer? Do you think the cops should have to report to the press then as well?

Think about what you are saying?

Are you saying that an announcement along the lines of the statement below would be wrong, then?

John Smith is wanted on charges of rape and murder. The public should be on the lookout for etc.
46 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:22:37pm

re: #40 Buck

It is a timing issue. You don't know when the paper is told the charges... and in this case it was not the charges that were told to the press. You will see a bunch of reports of him being charged with 'sodomy with a maid'. I am not even sure that is illegal in Manhattan. Clearly attempted rape, sexual abuse, and unlawful imprisonment are...

"IMF head pulled off plane, arrested in alleged sodomy of hotel maid".

It does surprise me to see a bunch of "the cops must know what they are doing" from this group.

You're damn tootin' it's illegal when it's not consensual.

Law

47 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:23:55pm

re: #44 jamesfirecat

Sorry Buck I'm a little dim today, you'll have to do it for me.

Explain to me why this is a bad idea. I fail to see why transparency in these maters is a bad thing...

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer.... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

If they have made a mistake, there is no way to unring the bell. The whole world has already heard that you are accused of this terrible thing, and most people think the police must know what they are doing (like mistakes don't happen).

I would hope to get a chance to respond before they put anything out there.

48 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:24:52pm

re: #47 Buck

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

No, that's a lie. They don't say you have done it. They say that's what you're charged with.

Why do you always have to lie?

49 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:24:58pm

re: #47 Buck

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

If they have made a mistake, there is no way to unring the bell. The whole world has already heard that you are accused of this terrible thing, and most people think the police must know what they are doing (like mistakes don't happen).

I would hope to get a chance to respond before they put anything out there.

No, they report that you were arrested on suspicion of and will be charged with said terrible thing(s).

50 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:25:24pm

re: #45 Simply Sarah

Are you saying that an announcement along the lines of the statement below would be wrong, then?

This guy was not hiding. This was not a case where the police were asking for help to know where he was.

I don't think that is a good example.

51 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:26:12pm

re: #50 Buck

So what should the police have said he was charged with, Buck?

52 sagehen  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:26:56pm

re: #47 Buck

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

If they have made a mistake, there is no way to unring the bell. The whole world has already heard that you are accused of this terrible thing, and most people think the police must know what they are doing (like mistakes don't happen).

I would hope to get a chance to respond before they put anything out there.

Actually, the first reports on local news were "NYPD officers removed the head of the IMF from a plane just before takeoff; we're trying to find out why and hope to have more on this later in the broadcast."

53 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:27:17pm

re: #47 Buck

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

If they have made a mistake, there is no way to unring the bell. The whole world has already heard that you are accused of this terrible thing, and most people think the police must know what they are doing (like mistakes don't happen).

I would hope to get a chance to respond before they put anything out there.

The police report that you have been arrested for a specific crime. That's the way it's always been done...and yeah, for people who are innocent, it is impossible to "unring the bell." What seems odd to me is that you appear to be defending this guy when there appears to be quite a bit of evidence against him...enough evidence that the court won't let him out on bail.

54 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:27:49pm

re: #47 Buck

So, before you get to reply to the charges, or speak to a lawyer... the police report that you have done this horrible thing.

If they have made a mistake, there is no way to unring the bell. The whole world has already heard that you are accused of this terrible thing, and most people think the police must know what they are doing (like mistakes don't happen).

I would hope to get a chance to respond before they put anything out there.

That sounds more like a problem with American culture and our over trusting nature towards authority than a problem with the judicial system.

Sorry Buck, I'd be much more worried if someone was arrested and we couldn't get the police to tell us why, that sounds like a situation fraught with chances for abuse if you ask me.

55 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:28:28pm

re: #28 Buck

The way he has been treated by the police (for example immediately telling the press that he is accused of sodomy) has been highly prejudicial.

Hey genius...there is no such thing as "secret charges" in our judicial system.

He is accused of criminal sodomy because he allegedly forced the women to perform fellatio on him.

It isn't helping his reputation when other women come out the woodwork to file charges and make accusations as well.

56 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:29:33pm

re: #50 Buck

This guy was not hiding. This was not a case where the police were asking for help to know where he was.

I don't think that is a good example.

No, he wasn't in hiding, he was on the run...left his phone and personal things behind to get out of the country.

57 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:29:37pm

re: #48 Obdicut

No, that's a lie. They don't say you have done it. They say that's what you're charged with.

Why do you always have to lie?

Now who is nit picking? LOL. I let you slide earlier...

Do a search on IMF head pulled off plane, arrested in alleged sodomy of hotel maid. So many press reports with the word sodomy in it. Where did they get that word? Just make it up?

In fact he was not charged with sodomy. [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

58 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:29:49pm

re: #55 celticdragon

When CelticDragon is on the cops' side, you know they've performed just fine.

59 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:30:45pm

re: #56 Sionainn

No, he wasn't in hiding, he was on the run...left his phone and personal things behind to get out of the country.

Still no reason to bring the press into this before all the facts are known. And reporting that he has a history, when so far that looks like gossip.

60 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:30:46pm

Look, as sagehen said above, if you pull the head of the IMF off a plane in handcuffs, you kinda need to explain very quickly to everyone what the hell is going on. Now the police shouldn't be shouting the charges to everyone as they walk out of the airport, but some PR person or press release had better come out shortly or...I mean honestly, can you imagine what would have happened had refused to respond? The press and the IMF and the governments of multiple countries would have lost it.

61 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:31:27pm

re: #57 Buck

Now who is nit picking? LOL. I let you slide earlier...

Do a search on IMF head pulled off plane, arrested in alleged sodomy of hotel maid. So many press reports with the word sodomy in it. Where did they get that word? Just make it up?

In fact he was not charged with sodomy. [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

If he wasn't charged with Sodomy then it seems like your beef should be with the fact that the police/media don't do a better job getting the truth out there, rather than with their policy of announcing what someone was charged with?

I mean would you still be protesting if he had been charged with forced sodomy?

62 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:32:11pm

re: #55 celticdragon

Hey genius...there is no such thing as "secret charges" in our judicial system.

He is accused of criminal sodomy because he allegedly forced the women to perform fellatio on him.

It isn't helping his reputation when other women come out the woodwork to file charges and make accusations as well.

Or he is NOT accused of criminal sodomy [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

63 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:34:03pm

re: #61 jamesfirecat

the police/media don't do a better job getting the truth out there, rather than with their policy of announcing what someone was charged with?

Really? You don't see the connection? Wait until you have the fact (like the actual charges) can't be a policy when announcing what someone was charged with?

64 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:34:27pm

re: #62 Buck

Or he is NOT accused of criminal sodomy [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

Dude, you were the one that brought the whole sodomy thing up. You can't then turn around to people trying to respond to that and say "Oh, but he wasn't charge with it! Take that!".

65 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:34:40pm

re: #58 Obdicut

When CelticDragon is on the cops' side, you know they've performed just fine.

The cops did exactly what they were supposed to do.

I would be of a different opinion had they thought they had found him in a residence and then proceeded to break down the door, shoot the pets with an MP-5 submachinegun, have the family on the floor face down with guns pointed at them and boot print shaped bruises up and down their backs only to discover they were at the wrong place and he was on an Air France jet.

66 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:35:40pm

re: #63 Buck

Really? You don't see the connection? Wait until you have the fact (like the actual charges) can't be a policy when announcing what someone was charged with?

Okay, so if he had been charged with Sodomy would you be complaining?

67 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:36:04pm

re: #62 Buck

Or he is NOT accused of criminal sodomy [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

The point stands.

There are no secret charges.

If you find it prejudicial that he is charged with a sex crime, then that is just too bad.

68 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:37:03pm

re: #57 Buck

Dude, you're citing two acts of sodomy, one anal and one oral. How can you not notice that?

69 jaunte  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:38:04pm

re: #66 jamesfirecat

[Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

"the defendant engaged in oral sexual conduct and anal sexual conduct with another person by forcible compulsion"


I wonder what the definition of that could be?

70 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:38:28pm

re: #59 Buck

Still no reason to bring the press into this before all the facts are known. And reporting that he has a history, when so far that looks like gossip.

The press reports when there is an arrest and they report what the person has been charged with.

71 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:40:08pm

re: #66 jamesfirecat

Okay, so if he had been charged with Sodomy would you be complaining?

Or the other way around...

72 Slap  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:40:41pm

re: #62 Buck

Legally speaking, the term "sodomy" has different meanings, depending on whether or not a given state has adequately reexamined its archaic laws.

I don't know what the status of the terminology is in New York.

In certain states, it does refer to any non-missionary sexual activity regardless of gender; this reference tends to occur mainly in cases of sexual assault, but the definition is pretty widely interpreted, legally.

So for someone -- the press, individuals, whatever -- to infer from the complaint, which lists "forced oral copulation" as a charge, that he's being charged with "sodomy" is neither legally inaccurate nor surprising.

Keep digging.

73 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:41:17pm

Buck honestly you seem to be wandering from point to point to me.

Do you object to

1) The media reporting what someone has been charged with as soon as they know?

Or

2) The media misreporting what someone has been changed with.

OR

3) Both?

If you're against

2)

Then yes I agree with you. The media should wait until they have the facts to report them.

I also feel the police should tell the media the facts shortly after they arrest someone to ensure transparency.

74 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:41:19pm

re: #70 Sionainn

The press reports when there is an arrest and they report what the person has been charged with.

I'm not sure what Buck wants. It's not like "We arrested him, but we won't tell you why" is any better. Does he just want them to deny that he was arrested at all and if it all turns out to be a misunderstanding they just quietly dump him in Yonkers, wipe their hands, and pretend nothing ever happened?

75 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:42:06pm

re: #62 Buck

Or he is NOT accused of criminal sodomy [Link: www.thesmokinggun.com...]

Yes, he was: "the defendant engaged in oral sexual conduct and anal sexual conduct with another person by forcible compulsion." That is sodomy according to Webster's New World Law Dictionary:

"Sodomy Law Definition
n
Anal or oral copulation between two persons, especially when they are of the same sex; oral or anal copulation between a human and a non-human. See also buggery, bestiality and crime."

76 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:43:09pm

re: #59 Buck

Still no reason to bring the press into this before all the facts are known. And reporting that he has a history, when so far that looks like gossip.

Christ on crutch.

The press in France are reporting the woman's name, her breast measurements (yes, seriously) and how attractive she may or may not be...and you think that we are out of line for reporting that women have made accusations of sexual harassment and assault against him in the past, which means he has a pattern of this behavior?

I call bullshit now. You are an apologist for the very sort of male privilege where guys get away with this shit because og gender and status.

77 Buck  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:46:03pm

re: #76 celticdragon

Christ on crutch.

The press in France are reporting the woman's name, her breast measurements (yes, seriously) and how attractive she may or may not be...and you think that we are out of line for reporting that women have made accusations of sexual harassment and assault against him in the past, which means he has a pattern of this behavior?

I call bullshit now. You are an apologist for the very sort of male privilege where guys get away with this shit because og gender and status.

Oh fuck you...."an apologist for the very sort of male privilege".... not at all.

Read my #7... it is crystal clear how I feel.

Anybody can say anything, and it gets reported as fact... Sickening how you can support that. And then do it to me.

Seriously, I am finished.

78 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:46:55pm

re: #76 celticdragon

Christ on crutch.

The press in France are reporting the woman's name, her breast measurements (yes, seriously) and how attractive she may or may not be...and you think that we are out of line for reporting that women have made accusations of sexual harassment and assault against him in the past, which means he has a pattern of this behavior?

I call bullshit now. You are an apologist for the very sort of male privilege where guys get away with this shit because og gender and status.

And Buck misses where he *does* have a documented history. He admitted to an affair a few years back, he has been publicly accused of this sort of thing in the past. That's not "gossip", that's reality.

79 BARACK THE VOTE  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:47:13pm

re: #76 celticdragon


I call bullshit now. You are an apologist for the very sort of male privilege where guys get away with this shit because og gender and status.

Privilege Denying Dude Rides Again!

80 Obdicut  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:47:47pm

re: #77 Buck

Why did you lie and claim that the police announce that you did something, rather than that they're accusing you of having done something?

If your argument is so strong, why do you have to lie?

81 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:48:30pm

re: #78 Simply Sarah

And Buck misses where he *does* have a documented history. He admitted to an affair a few years back, he has been publicly accused of this sort of thing in the past. That's not "gossip", that's reality.

Buck also doesn't acknowledge that he's wrong about the guy being charged with sodomy or that the guy was caught obviously trying to flee the country.

82 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:50:59pm

re: #77 Buck

Un huh.

So let's take a look at what you said.

Please note, I am not blaming the victim, or defending a rapist.

You then go on at some length to defend the sort of privilege he enjoyed when you insist we shouldn't know what he was charged with and that we should regard reports from other women as "gossip".

83 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:51:21pm

re: #81 Sionainn

Buck also doesn't acknowledge that he's wrong about the guy being charged with sodomy or that the guy was caught obviously trying to flee the country.

Well, I'd be careful about saying it's obvious he was trying to flee the country. That is, most certainly, what it appears to be based on what information we have right now, but saying it is obvious makes me uncomfortable as it implies guilt.

84 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:52:39pm

re: #83 Simply Sarah

Well, I'd be careful about saying it's obvious he was trying to flee the country. That is, most certainly, what it appears to be based on what information we have right now, but saying it is obvious makes me uncomfortable as it implies guilt.

Yes, it looks like mens rea.

The fact they had to pull off a plane will be used against him in a trial, since it really does look like flight to avoid prosecution.

85 Simply Sarah  Wed, May 18, 2011 1:58:30pm

re: #84 celticdragon

Yes, it looks like mens rea.

The fact they had to pull off a plane will be used against him in a trial, since it really does look like flight to avoid prosecution.

Oh, it's certainly a valid point to bring up and a prosecutor probably *would* call it obvious in court. I'm just really wary of public discourse getting to far ahead of things, especially this soon. For one, I still feel burnt by the Duke lacrosse debacle, where I, like so much of the country, was sure those boys were guilty.

In my mind, DSK is safely in custody, so we can let the legal system work things out. Do I think he's probably guilty? Yes, I do. I just can't say I know it for certain, is all.

86 celticdragon  Wed, May 18, 2011 2:01:50pm

re: #85 Simply Sarah

Oh, it's certainly a valid point to bring up and a prosecutor probably *would* call it obvious in court. I'm just really wary of public discourse getting to far ahead of things, especially this soon. For one, I still feel burnt by the Duke lacrosse debacle, where I, like so much of the country, was sure those boys were guilty.

In my mind, DSK is safely in custody, so we can let the legal system work things out. Do I think he's probably guilty? Yes, I do. I just can't say I know it for certain, is all.

Same here, and that is why I am not so fast out the door to assign guilt either.

Since he does have, ahem, a sordid sexual reputation in France and there is at least one other accuser, I would venture that this is probably not going to turn out like the Duke Lacrosse case.

Still, I am not going to absolutely say he is guilty either.

87 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 2:02:06pm

re: #85 Simply Sarah

Oh, it's certainly a valid point to bring up and a prosecutor probably *would* call it obvious in court. I'm just really wary of public discourse getting to far ahead of things, especially this soon. For one, I still feel burnt by the Duke lacrosse debacle, where I, like so much of the country, was sure those boys were guilty.

In my mind, DSK is safely in custody, so we can let the legal system work things out. Do I think he's probably guilty? Yes, I do. I just can't say I know it for certain, is all.

I'm willing to change my mind if he testifies why he was on the plane and left his stuff at the hotel and his explanation is reasonable. Until then, it looks pretty suspicious to me.

88 Sionainn  Wed, May 18, 2011 2:04:09pm

re: #85 Simply Sarah

re: #86 celticdragon

I'm with you on that...I'm not declaring him guilty, either. The only time I do that is if they actually have the person on film committing the crime with a bunch of witnesses.

89 What, me worry?  Wed, May 18, 2011 2:26:07pm

re: #24 Buck

Nonsense. I don't even know about that story at all. Would I say that BEFORE information is sent to the press about this person, there should be real evidence to support the charges? Of course. I would say that for the devil himself.

"Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake! "

Sorry, busy day.

There is evidence to support the charges against the Imam. The federal indictment is here. [Link: www.miamiherald.com...]

AND there is evidence to support the rape of the maid, and possibly other women.

So again, would you question the charges against the Imam so fervently as the maid?


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