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1 calochortus  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:05:29am

Sadly, as far as I can see, many if not most schools don't teach meaningful science to all their students and its only getting worse with high stakes testing in math and language skills.
You have to have some understanding of basic science to appreciate what is happening. A sense of geography wouldn't hurt either-just because your town is doing fine doesn't mean the whole world is.

Keep hitting us over the head with this Ludwig!

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:12:35am

re: #1 calochortus

Sadly, as far as I can see, many if not most schools don't teach meaningful science to all their students and its only getting worse with high stakes testing in math and language skills.
You have to have some understanding of basic science to appreciate what is happening. A sense of geography wouldn't hurt either-just because your town is doing fine doesn't mean the whole world is.

Keep hitting us over the head with this Ludwig!

I believe you are very sadly correct in your observation about schools.

And thank you for your comments. If the science community does not get through to enough heads it will be catastrophic. There is really no choice about the head hitting.

Another thing that people don't realize is that we sign up for a shifted climate.

Storms like this are what were signed up for now.

If we stopped all emissions tomorrow, the feedbacks are such that it would still get worse from here for the next hundred years. However, the bad news would peak at levels we could manage as a civilization despite the suffering of millions.

Of course we are noot going to drastically curb emissions by tomorrow.

This is a well of pain that we are only seeing the first pangs of. It should hopefully be obvious to all of these folks in red states, as levees are torn down and areas flooded, that something is actually up.

Of course, the propaganda machine for the other side still raises doubts.
And that wastes precious time we do not have.

3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:34:55am

Thank you. The "Winter Wierding" video was especially helpful.

You mentioned a Midwest "dustbowl". Did a little reading about it just now and found that along with a cyclical drought, combined with man's poor farming methods, the Dustbowl of the 1930's was a "perfect storm" of human error and mother nature.

I did not know that before.

Thank you for writing this. Was very helpful to me.

4 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:36:25am

re: #3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thank you. The "Winter Wierding" video was especially helpful.

You mentioned a Midwest "dustbowl". Did a little reading about it just now and found that along with a cyclical drought, combined with man's poor farming methods, the Dustbowl of the 1930's was a "perfect storm" of human error and mother nature.

I did not know that before.

Thank you for writing this. Was very helpful to me.

Thank you for reading it.

5 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:36:56am

re: #3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

And if you like it, please ding it up so others see it.

6 calochortus  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:38:51am

I would think the large insurance companies would be mounting anti-global warming campaigns. Yes, they can raise their rates, but uncertainty is the last thing they want, and they're going to get it in spades. It seems to me they could take on the deniers fairly effectively even if they aren't as well funded.

7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:39:38am

By the way, LVQ. I wrote a lengthy question to you earlier today, that you have done an excellent job of addressing that question here.

Glad you did not take it as sarcasm or snark. I was completely sincere.

8 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:39:46am

re: #6 calochortus

I would think the large insurance companies would be mounting anti-global warming campaigns. Yes, they can raise their rates, but uncertainty is the last thing they want, and they're going to get it in spades. It seems to me they could take on the deniers fairly effectively even if they aren't as well funded.

They are. Actually one of the best indicators that not all corporate goons deny Climate Change is by looking at the places they will no longer insure homes and businesses.

9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:40:41am

re: #7 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

By the way, LVQ. I wrote a lengthy question to you earlier today, that you have done an excellent job of addressing that question here.

Glad you did not take it as sarcasm or snark. I was completely sincere.

I've been working all day and only had a chance to work on this post in breaks. I usually take your questions as sincere anyway, because you usually are.

10 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:42:47am

Oh come on there is absolutely no proof of man made global warming, none! It is just another way for the NWO cabal to try to destroy national sovereignty via UN resolution 21. More and more famous scientists come out every day to proclaim global warming (and evolution) a hoax! Great men like Anthony Watts...and...uhh...others...

Besides the only thing that these natural disasters have in common with any human behavior is that they are the wrath of God for this countries support of the deviant and abominous gays and the availability of legal murder (abortion) of children.

///wingnut

11 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:43:05am

re: #3 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Also the coming dustbowl will beggar that one.

12 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:44:00am

re: #10 ausador

Oh come on there is absolutely no proof of man made global warming, none! It is just another way for the NWO cabal to try to destroy national sovereignty via UN resolution 21. More and more famous scientists come out every day to proclaim global warming (and evolution) a hoax! Great men like Anthony Watts...and...uhh...others...

Besides the only thing that these natural disasters have in common with any human behavior is that they are the wrath of God for this countries support of the deviant and abominous gays and the availability of legal murder (abortion) of children.

///wingnut

It is because of the endless parade of people who say such things seriously I become so testy.

13 Interesting Times  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:48:13am

re: #12 LudwigVanQuixote

It is because of the endless parade of people who say such things seriously I become so testy.

No kidding :/ It reads word-for-word like denialist dumpings on news comment threads.

On another note, do you have a moment for gmail chat? Something I want to send you, and an AGW question that's a little too off-topic for this thread.

14 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:52:01am

re: #13 publicityStunted

No kidding :/ It reads word-for-word like denialist dumpings on news comment threads.

On another note, do you have a moment for gmail chat? Something I want to send you, and an AGW question that's a little too off-topic for this thread.

Perhaps tonight? I am off to a meeting shortly.

15 Interesting Times  Tue, May 24, 2011 11:53:27am

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote

Perhaps tonight? I am off to a meeting shortly.

Sure, no problem.

16 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 24, 2011 12:38:25pm

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

Also the coming dustbowl will beggar that one.

Okay, I don't know what that means.

17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 24, 2011 12:39:34pm

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

Also the coming dustbowl will beggar that one.

Oh, now I know what you meant. Read it wrong.

18 Interesting Times  Tue, May 24, 2011 12:44:03pm

re: #17 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh, now I know what you meant. Read it wrong.

Or, to put it in picture terms:

This is the Palmer Drought Severity Index during the 1930s Dustbowl.

This is the predicted Palmer Drought Severity Index for the same area a few decades from now.

In other words, it will double to triple in severity.

19 dragonfire1981  Tue, May 24, 2011 12:53:35pm

I remember learning about climate change in my high school geography classes.

Of course this was back in Canada.

20 Kronocide  Tue, May 24, 2011 12:54:16pm

I Tweeted it. Time for both barrels, dispassion is dead.

21 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, May 24, 2011 2:19:03pm

As always, well done!
Thanks for helping me to learn about this!

22 freetoken  Tue, May 24, 2011 2:27:09pm

heh...

U.S. weather experts: Climate change not directly linked to deadly tornadoes

The United States is experiencing the deadliest year for tornadoes in nearly six decades, but top US weather experts said Monday there is no link between the violent twisters and climate change.

23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 24, 2011 4:09:45pm

re: #22 freetoken

If an F5 tears through a forest and no one is around to hear it...

24 BishopX  Tue, May 24, 2011 5:50:09pm

re: #23 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

That's their argument in a nutshell, that increased population growth is leading to an increase in the number of tornadoes reported.

25 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 25, 2011 4:34:42am

So I'm missing something. The poles are warming more rapidly than the equator. It's differences in temperature that drive wind. And wind is what tornadoes are made of.

Unless there's some more subtle mechanism at work here, we should see more drought, more extreme rain events, but fewer and less violent wind storms and tornadoes.

How does it work, that we should have expected more violent tornadoes?

One other remark: I read recently, in an article on how inflation rates vary depending on what you want to buy, that wheat prices are up 83 percent from one year ago.

26 lostlakehiker  Wed, May 25, 2011 4:41:23am

re: #18 publicityStunted

Or, to put it in picture terms:

This is the Palmer Drought Severity Index during the 1930s Dustbowl.

This is the predicted Palmer Drought Severity Index for the same area a few decades from now.

In other words, it will double to triple in severity.

Scary. This means hunger for the United States, with food production way down. It means famine for much of the world.

There will be trouble, to put it in that dry and understated physics-speak, when other nations seek to redeem their dollar holdings in food, and we refuse to sell.

From one perspective, we have our own troubles and we will feed our own first and then worry about others.

From the other perspective, we by-God owe them that food, and if we won't give it over, they'll take it or die trying.

It will take prodigies of diplomacy and wisdom to avoid war.

27 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, May 25, 2011 6:54:10am

re: #22 freetoken

Wow.. Yeah, What a remarkably distorted article. The media twists things out of reality once again to fit a narrative.

It is true that La Nina did not have a particularly strong effect in these tornadoes. La Nina is a Pacific phenomena.

The tornadoes are fed by the warm Gulf of Mexico.

It is true that there are more people to be hit by tornadoes living in tornado alley.

Satellites see all of them. They are getting worse with or without people living there.

Distorted reports like that make me want to pull my hair out.

28 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 7:20:53am

re: #25 lostlakehiker

So I'm missing something. The poles are warming more rapidly than the equator. It's differences in temperature that drive wind. And wind is what tornadoes are made of. Unless there's some more subtle mechanism at work here, we should see more drought, more extreme rain events, but fewer and less violent wind storms and tornadoes.

Over the long term, that's what one would expect, but for now we're seeing the opposite - perhaps because there's still enough difference between cold air from the north and warm air from the Gulf, the latter being stronger and more moist than usual. LVQ, would this be more or less correct?

29 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, May 25, 2011 7:33:50am

re: #28 publicityStunted

re: #25 lostlakehiker

It will always be warmer near the equator compared to the poles because there will always be more solar flux near the equator. The sun will always be driving wind storms.

The air will not have an homogeneous temperature.

30 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 8:32:11am

re: #29 LudwigVanQuixote

The talking point, though, is that as the temperature difference between the poles and equator decreases, so should wind storm strength (see this comment for an example)

If that's true, what's the counterargument or other factor to consider?

31 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Wed, May 25, 2011 8:42:56am

re: #30 publicityStunted

The talking point, though, is that as the temperature difference between the poles and equator decreases, so should wind storm strength (see this comment for an example)

If that's true, what's the counterargument or other factor to consider?

The counter argument is that there is a lot more to making storms than just a temperature gradient. There are mountain ranges and ocean currents that come into play. There is the entire shift from an icy polar cap to a wet one. The rotation of the Earth comes into pay as well and most importantly, never forget the temperature drop between night and day. This is one case where oversimplifying does not help.

There is also the issue of energy conservation. All that warm wet air from the gulf for instance is an issue.


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