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1 shutdown  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:45:08am

I wonder if the AGW deniers will spin this in some way, or simply ignore the news.

3 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:51:18am

re: #1 imp_62

I wonder if the AGW deniers will spin this in some way, or simply ignore the news.

They will just call it bad weather... They will say lots of technical words like La Nina, but in the wrong order to sew confusion. Just like they did last year after the Russian crops failed.

They will continue to spread lies that are actively murdering people right now.

They will continue to spread lies that will destroy this nation.

They will continue to spread lies that will kill your children.

Physics really does not care one bit what we think about it or how would like nature to work. It will do what it does without any parameter for mercy in the equations. The only good news is that this is getting so bad that other nations will be forced to act and even red state morons will have to wonder why there are so many climate related calamities.

4 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:53:41am

I wonder if we will ever see a day where the US has to ban food exports

5 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:54:25am

re: #4 SpaceJesus

I wonder if we will ever see a day where the US has to ban food exports

At present projections, in the next decade, we will have at least one year like that.

6 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:57:15am

re: #5 LudwigVanQuixote

It would be wise then, to move all investments out of India and China. The social unrest that will accompany the mass starvation in these regions will not be kind to the economies of those nations.

7 Randy W. Weeks  Wed, May 25, 2011 10:59:41am

In my nightmares the right finally comes to grip with the fact of AGW...and decides that tax cuts for the rich and further deregulation of businesses are the answers.

If Obama is reelected he has to do something about this. Has to. A JFK man-to-the-moon by the end of the decade has to happen. It just has to and fuck the political fallout.

8 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:00:17am

re: #4 SpaceJesus

I wonder if we will ever see a day where the US has to ban food exports

Are you kidding? Interfere with the Invisible Hand? Read up on the Corn Laws.

9 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:00:26am

re: #6 SpaceJesus

It would be wise then, to move all investments out of India and China. The social unrest that will accompany the mass starvation in these regions will not be kind to the economies of those nations.

Take it a step further. What happens to the global economy then?

Take it a step further. China and Russia are massive grain exporters, what happens when they can no longer export?

Take it a step further. Include spreading disease vectors and loss of drinking water.

Take it a step further, what happens to those more volatile regimes under food, water and and economic strain in the wake of that?

Once you do that, remember, this gets much, much worse after that.

10 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:00:54am

re: #7 LoneStarSpur

In my nightmares the right finally comes to grip with the fact of AGW...and decides that tax cuts for the rich and further deregulation of businesses are the answers.

If Obama is reelected he has to do something about this. Has to. A JFK man-to-the-moon by the end of the decade has to happen. It just has to and fuck the political fallout.

Amen.

11 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:01:43am

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

Take it a step further. What happens to the global economy then?

Take it a step further. China and Russia are massive grain exporters, what happens when they can no longer export?

Take it a step further. Include spreading disease vectors and loss of drinking water.

Take it a step further, what happens to those more volatile regimes under food, water and and economic strain in the wake of that?

Once you do that, remember, this gets much, much worse after that.

So the smart money will go to Krupp, Bofors, and General Dynamics?

12 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:01:59am

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

War. AGW and our failure to address it will cause deaths on a scale that I don't want to calculate.

13 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:04:51am

re: #12 SpaceJesus

War. AGW and our failure to address it will cause deaths on a scale that I don't want to calculate.

The scale is billions. Billions will die if we do not alter course.

That is the scale.

It will start in the poorest regions and then hit the US.

Just ask yourself, when Mexico turns to a desert, and the Mexicans now have the choice of heading north or dying of starvation, dehydration and disease (as well as violent social unrest) what does our border look like then?

14 calochortus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:05:38am

re: #8 Decatur Deb

Are you kidding? Interfere with the Invisible Hand? Read up on the Corn Laws.

Quoted for truth. As long as we don't have to actually see the people starving, we're good to go. They're not really like us anyway, are they? /

15 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:06:01am

re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote

We will have a dress rehearsal for this with Yemen in about 8 years. We can see what it looks like then.

16 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:06:15am

re: #14 calochortus

Quoted for truth. As long as we don't have to actually see the people starving, we're good to go. They're not really like us anyway, are they? /

Ain't that America!

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:06:46am

re: #15 SpaceJesus

We will have a dress rehearsal for this with Yemen in about 8 years. We can see what it looks like then.

It will look like soldiers shooting desperate and starving civilians.

18 calochortus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:07:03am

re: #16 LudwigVanQuixote

Ain't that America!

Ain't that human nature?

19 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:07:07am

re: #13 LudwigVanQuixote

The scale is billions. Billions will die if we do not alter course.

That is the scale.

It will start in the poorest regions and then hit the US.

Just ask yourself, when Mexico turns to a desert, and the Mexicans now have the choice of heading north or dying of starvation, dehydration and disease (as well as violent social unrest) what does our border look like then?

It will look like the Panama Canal Free Fire zone. We need defensible borders, too.

20 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:07:10am

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

So let's say a nuclear exchange occurs in the China/India/Pakistan region, and this is the fallout.

Of course, in the comments for that article, you see a lot of "durr hurr, does this cancel out global warming" jokes...but in all seriousness, what would such a thing do to the process of AGW? (assuming there are any humans left on what's left of the planet...)

21 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:07:53am

re: #17 LudwigVanQuixote

It will look like soldiers shooting desperate and starving civilians.

Oh they'll die of dehydration before they get to the starvation phase. The world needs a crash course in resources management real bad.

22 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:12:04am

re: #21 SpaceJesus

Oh they'll die of dehydration before they get to the starvation phase. The world needs a crash course in resources management real bad.

Cause of Death for well-armed people is rarely starvation. They'll start walking towards the cool and wet.

23 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:13:37am

re: #22 Decatur Deb

Cause of Death for well-armed people is rarely starvation. They'll start walking towards the cool and wet.


Good look doing that on the Arabian peninsula. Also, the destitute Yemeni population is no match for the American-built Saudi military.

24 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:15:05am

re: #23 SpaceJesus

Good look doing that on the Arabian peninsula. Also, the destitute Yemeni population is no match for the American-built Saudi military.

Those are "population dust". I'm talking about China walking to the Ukraine.

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:16:13am

re: #20 publicityStunted

So let's say a nuclear exchange occurs in the China/India/Pakistan region, and this is the fallout.

Of course, in the comments for that article, you see a lot of "durr hurr, does this cancel out global warming" jokes...but in all seriousness, what would such a thing do to the process of AGW? (assuming there are any humans left on what's left of the planet...)

Well food and water pressures are exactly the sort of thing to make a nuclear exchange more likely.

On a purely scientific basis, Assuming the conflict were limited to that region and the US and Russia managed to stay out of it, there would certainly be a global cooling from the particulates in the atmosphere for about a year or more.

Of course the fallout and destruction of breadbasket regions would insure mass starvation elsewhere.

The fact that Chinese, Indian and Pakistani emissions would then be rendered to nearly zero would drastically reduce the global industrial footprint. However, the system still has a lot of inertia. We still warm for the next 100 years anyway. The big storms and droughts will still be the new norm. The US, without laws to regulate emissions, and suffering from the shock of the loss of the Chinese market would still be able to contribute enough emissions on her own to pass all sorts of tipping points - albeit further down the road.

Only concentrated world wide effort of the industrial nations to curb emissions can solve this. It is too late for that solution to be pretty. At best, we can try to make it as painless and fair as possible, and to prevent it from being completely catastrophic - assuming we act now.

26 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:20:59am

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Did you ever see the ABC News documentary "Earth 2100"?

27 SpaceJesus  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:21:52am

re: #23 SpaceJesus

*luck not look

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:22:19am

re: #26 publicityStunted

Did you ever see the ABC News documentary "Earth 2100"?

No

29 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:23:14am

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

It might not be that good. India and Pakistan might well absorb the effective enemy nuke stockpiles and fall back on very dirty emergency conventional weapons production--a lot of 1940s Pittsburghs pushed into uncontrolled 24/7 shifts.

30 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:24:38am

re: #28 LudwigVanQuixote

Just emailed you a link for where you can watch it online

31 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:26:13am

re: #30 publicityStunted

Thank you.

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:26:29am

re: #29 Decatur Deb

It might not be that good. India and Pakistan might well absorb the effective enemy nuke stockpiles and fall back on very dirty emergency conventional weapons production--a lot of 1940s Pittsburghs pushed into uncontrolled 24/7 shifts.

And yes... Of course you are correct.

33 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:30:53am

re: #32 LudwigVanQuixote

And yes... Of course you are correct.

People tend to overestimate the military effect of nukes because they are so dramatic. If they're not used in MAD numbers and yields, a modern military can work around them and keep on fighting. Much of the loss of life occurs months or decades after the battle is over.

34 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:33:03am

I think that in my time here, I have written several hundred posts on AGW and given hundreds of references to kosher, completely technical, peer reviewed resources, as well as penning many detailed explanations of the phenomena.

I know I have friends here who read those posts - and I thank you.

I beg you all who have read this though, to not just take it seriously, but take it seriously enough that you bring it up whenever you can to whomever you are talking to. The only long term way this gets turned around is if enough people see that such change must happen. So much so that they can influence policy makers.

I beg each of you to learn the science as best you can - and it really is conceptually very simple. All of you can explain the water cycle, the idea that ice melts when it gets hot, the idea of a feedback loop and the idea that crops don't do well if they are too hot or don't have enough water.

Learn the science and argue it passionately - as if your life and the lives of all those you love depended on it. They do! Don't linger no the odds of success. Failure is not an option.

35 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:33:45am

re: #33 Decatur Deb

People tend to overestimate the military effect of nukes because they are so dramatic. If they're not used in MAD numbers and yields, a modern military can work around them and keep on fighting. Much of the loss of life occurs months or decades after the battle is over.

Which is why I said of course you are correct. However the initial question, seemed to me to involve an all out exchange.

36 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:37:19am

re: #35 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why I said of course you are correct. However the initial question, seemed to me to involve an all out exchange.

Ah-- I thought we were using a Pakistan-India exchange. If they pressed all their buttons, you might immediately get fewer than 100 small mushrooms.

37 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:39:36am

re: #34 LudwigVanQuixote

I think that in my time here, I have written several hundred posts on AGW and given hundreds of references to kosher, completely technical, peer reviewed resources, as well as penning many detailed explanations of the phenomena.

I know I have friends here who read those posts - and I thank you.

I beg you all who have read this though, to not just take it seriously, but take it seriously enough that you bring it up whenever you can to whomever you are talking to. The only long term way this gets turned around is if enough people see that such change must happen. So much so that they can influence policy makers.

I beg each of you to learn the science as best you can - and it really is conceptually very simple. All of you can explain the water cycle, the idea that ice melts when it gets hot, the idea of a feedback loop and the idea that crops don't do well if they are too hot or don't have enough water.

Learn the science and argue it passionately - as if your life and the lives of all those you love depended on it. They do! Don't linger no the odds of success. Failure is not an option.

I'm past the science part--it's the lack of an action plan, one that includes realistic assessment of the world's political wisdom, that makes me dwell on "after the Fall".

38 Interesting Times  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:40:56am

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Ah-- I thought we were using a Pakistan-India exchange.

I was. Read this.

39 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:43:33am

re: #38 publicityStunted

I was. Read this.

Scanned it enough when we started to realize I don't know enough about ozone depletion to make sense of it. There is a lot of may/might in the writing.

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:44:13am

re: #36 Decatur Deb

Ah-- I thought we were using a Pakistan-India exchange. If they pressed all their buttons, you might immediately get fewer than 100 small mushrooms.

And I thought I saw China involved in the initial question. Honestly, this is a bit of a side issue. You are right about what you said.

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:49:07am

re: #37 Decatur Deb

I'm past the science part--it's the lack of an action plan, one that includes realistic assessment of the world's political wisdom, that makes me dwell on "after the Fall".

So as someone who understands what is at stake your options are:

1. Try as hard as you can to sway people with everyone you convince being ultimately helping.

2. Do nothing and focus on the small odds of success realizing that failure means the collapse of civilization as we know it and billions of deaths.

Better to try and fail rather than to have done nothing after having the gift of understanding.

42 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:49:58am

re: #22 Decatur Deb

Cause of Death for well-armed people is rarely starvation. They'll start walking towards the cool and wet.

Exactly. And the people there will not want to share.

43 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 25, 2011 11:50:57am

re: #41 LudwigVanQuixote

So as someone who understands what is at stake your options are:

1. Try as hard as you can to sway people with everyone you convince being ultimately helping.

2. Do nothing and focus on the small odds of success realizing that failure means the collapse of civilization as we know it and billions of deaths.

Better to try and fail rather than to have done nothing after having the gift of understanding.

Absolutely. On the upside, a marketable LED bulb has broken the 100-watt output equivalent.

44 3CPO  Wed, May 25, 2011 9:11:53pm

Listen to Glenn Beck. We should all buy gold!

45 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 26, 2011 7:44:07am

re: #6 SpaceJesus

It would be wise then, to move all investments out of India and China. The social unrest that will accompany the mass starvation in these regions will not be kind to the economies of those nations.

Not so fast there. Investment is the only way either of these nations can move to a greener electric grid. If India and China end up hunkering down and using coal, we suffer. Better for us if they can finance construction of massive wind, solar, and nuclear efforts. On top of that, we are badly in debt to China. Any successful investment we make in China's green energy infrastructure becomes a credit, where credits are badly needed to offset debits.

What's more, mass starvation isn't in the cards just yet. Bad harvests in China need not lead to mass hunger. China can simply buy food from the U.S. Likewise for India, though she has less cash in reserve than China.

Market forces will drive up the price of beef and chicken, we'll migrate to less of both and more direct consumption of grain, and everybody gets fed. We make money, they live, we lose a little weight.

THIS time around, it's not the end of the world. We still have some cards left to play, some margin.

China will, if she has to, mine coal like there's no tomorrow, and use that coal to produce goods for export with which to buy food. We have to look to the future, and we have to accept that both we and China are essential players in a team sport: humanity vs. feckless stupidity and, by and by, ruin.

It's not enough for us to get our own energy sector green. Not that we're making much progress on that. We have to help the rest of the world do it too.


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