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1 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 10:34:56am

That's a long article with several juicy bits (that I caught, and more that I missed in my skim, I'm sure.) There's a link in it to a handy program identifying the players.

Of the 10 people profiled below, all but Bill French, Terry Jones and Debbie Schlussel regularly interact with others on the list. Most were selected for profiling primarily because of their association with activist organizations. People who only run websites or do commentary were omitted, with two exceptions: Schlussel, because she has influence as a frequent television talk-show guest, and John Joseph Jay, because he is on the board of Pamela Geller's Stop Islamization of America group. Three other activists, Steve Emerson, Daniel Pipes and Frank Gaffney, have interacted with many of the core group as well and also have offended many Muslims, but they are somewhat more moderate in their views of Muslims than those who are profiled below.

(No trolls yet. Good luck!)

2 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 10:54:40am

re: #1 wrenchwench

That's a long article with several juicy bits (that I caught, and more that I missed in my skim, I'm sure.) There's a link in it to a handy program identifying the players.

Ooo, good catch! I totally missed that. Yeah, it's a really long article.

(No trolls yet. Good luck!)

Heh, maybe they all slept in. *tip-toes out quietly*

3 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 11:35:37am

Glad you decided to post, CL. As long as Charles allows it, you shouldn't worry about anyone else. At least, that's my philosophy LOL

I make very clear distinctions between how Islam is practiced in fear based societies and how it's practiced in freedom based societies.

I do not like the Palestinian people. I quite loathe them, actually and I have little feeling for the 22 very wealthy Arab countries who do nothing to help them, even as they live as refugees in their own lands. That would solve the problem, if the Arab nations would reach out to their own brothers and sisters, but they have no desire.

However, when these people flee tyranny for freedom, it is up to us to extend our hands and I believe that very strongly.

You may remember the story last month in Miami and Fort Lauderdale where an Imam and his family were indicted for allegedly providing aid to the Pakistani Taliban. The case is pending, but the Imam ran a mosque in Margate (Broward County). Residents decided that the mosque should be closed and began to picket. It seems like the standard reaction when these things happen, run them out of town.

Who is running the Catholics out of town when a priest fondles a young boy? Who calls for the church closing? No one, actually.

4 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 12:30:29pm

Thanks for posting this.

This is an interesting issue for me. Like Marjorie I have political, personal and tribal issues with certain Muslim schools of thought, and the actions of certain Muslim-majority nations. But I have enough knowledge of Islam and of Muslims not to conflate the Hamas charter, or the terrible human rights records of Saudi Arabia or Iran with 'Islam', nor to fantasize that the Shiite lady who runs my local Middle Eastern foods store is plotting the rise of a global caliphate in her spare time. I also know enough about both the history of religion and the current state of the world not to buy the notion of some sort of evil Islamic exceptionalism.

In the last few years, I've seen ignorant hate about Islam go from Freepers competing to see how many times they can call Mohammed a pedophile to presidential candidates openly saying they would demand loyalty oaths from Muslim government workers. Honda has his own memories--my community has ours. As a Jew and an American, I can't look at this crap, and how fast it is spreading, and not feel deep disgust, and fear for the future. In the last few weeks I've been seeing speculation starting about how Anthony Weiner is also a 'sekrit Muslim'. This is like McCarthy Meets The Nazis. And an enormous amount of work is being done to see that it spreads and goes mainstream.

I do not use the Nazi analogy lightly at all. I don't want to use it here. But I'm seeing the slow creep of hate from yahoos in the street, to fringe bloggers, to respectable journalists, to academia--and the buck stops here. Not in America. I will not accept this sort of thing.

Story is that when Oswald Moseley led his British fascist group through the streets of London, the Christians in the neighborhood turned out, throwing things and shouting "Leave our Jews alone!" The great-grandsons of some of those people are now breaking the windows in Asian neighborhoods under the name of the EDL. I am very clear about whose side I am on.

5 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 1:09:06pm

re: #3 marjoriemoon

I don't think you loathe the Palestinian people.

My friend Fouzi runs a small corner shop in SF. He's Palestinian. He works on getting his family out of palestine and into the US.

Do you loathe him?

Do you loathe a five-year old Palestinian boy in Gaza-- even knowing that he'll most likely, after a young filled of propaganda, grow up to be a Jew-hater and supporter of terrorism?

6 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 1:52:55pm
I wasn't going to post this Page because I'm not in the mood to deal with the inevitable trolling,

Not much point in even reading an article when one knows that dare to be critical, and all you will do is call "troll", assuming of course that there was reason to be critical.

7 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:00:03pm

re: #6 naso tang

Not much point in even reading an article when one knows that dare to be critical, and all you will do is call "troll", assuming of course that there was reason to be critical.

Way to out yourself.

If you already doubt your ability to state your case in such a way that you would be taken as sincere, you have low confidence in your abilities. I can only assume that's for good reason.

8 Achilles Tang  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:10:12pm

re: #7 wrenchwench

Way to out yourself.

If you already doubt your ability to state your case in such a way that you would be taken as sincere, you have low confidence in your abilities. I can only assume that's for good reason.

Way to label yourself.

CL doesn't take any criticism without crying foul. We can lambaste creationists or Christian hate mongers to our heart's content, but dare point out inconsistencies in CL's versions of wacky beliefs and it is called Islamophobia or trolling.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy, and that is what I call you.

9 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:11:02pm

re: #3 marjoriemoon

I do not like the Palestinian people. I quite loathe them, actually

*facepalm*

10 wrenchwench  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:14:01pm

re: #8 Naso Tang

Way to label yourself.

CL doesn't take any criticism without crying foul. We can lambaste creationists or Christian hate mongers to our heart's content, but dare point out inconsistencies in CL's versions of wacky beliefs and it is called Islamophobia or trolling.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy, and that is what I call you.

Do you have a link that backs up your assertions? (Not about calling me 'hypocrisy', I don't care about that.)

11 BishopX  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:15:45pm

re: #8 Naso Tang

When you lambast Christians hatemongers you get applauded. When you attack Christians as a whole you get push back. The same should apply to Muslims.

12 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:24:31pm

re: #8 Naso Tang

What 'whacky beliefs'? You mean, just being religious?

13 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:33:25pm

re: #3 marjoriemoon

Glad you decided to post, CL. As long as Charles allows it, you shouldn't worry about anyone else. At least, that's my philosophy LOL

I'm glad I did too. I was feeling a little resentful about not posting it, then decided that was ridiculous as there was no one stopping me but me.

I make very clear distinctions between how Islam is practiced in fear based societies and how it's practiced in freedom based societies.

That's a good point, put the way you just did. It's a distinction I tend to overlook because I came to Islam freely, choose freely to wear hijab, etc.

I do not like the Palestinian people. I quite loathe them, actually and I have little feeling for the 22 very wealthy Arab countries who do nothing to help them, even as they live as refugees in their own lands. That would solve the problem, if the Arab nations would reach out to their own brothers and sisters, but they have no desire.

I'm not going to pretend that first part doesn't bother me in its scope, but as long as you're not calling for violent collective retribution against them or blaming all Muslims for the sins of a few, then I'm not going to fight with you over it. I also have no knowledge of what personal losses you may have suffered to make you feel that way.

I'm glad that you're honest enough to put it right out there though. If I know where you stand it makes it easier (but not easy) for us to talk about the subject and maybe learn something useful from each other.

As for the other Arab countries, some of them are quite poor, but I too don't have much feeling for the ones who are in a position to help, but don't (for the same reason you stated).

However, when these people flee tyranny for freedom, it is up to us to extend our hands and I believe that very strongly.

I know you do becuase I've heard you say as much many times, but I have to ask: How do you turn off the loathing if it's a Palestinian? I'm just asking becuase loathing is a really strong word.

Who is running the Catholics out of town when a priest fondles a young boy? Who calls for the church closing? No one, actually.

I hadn't even thought of that.

14 Charles Johnson  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:37:32pm

Actually I was just reading this, and the companion article The Anti-Muslim Inner Circle.

One of my first reactions is that I'm glad I'm not in these articles. Quite a few of these people tried to pull me into their strange anti-Muslim obsessions, and I thank my younger self for seeing the warning signs and getting the hell away from them.

15 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:41:22pm

re: #4 SanFranciscoZionist

Thanks so much for your thoughtful, and (as always) interesting & honest comment. You should be writing books or giving speeches or something. I wish I had the clarity of thought you possess.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I want to be you when I grow up. {{SFZ}}

16 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:50:14pm

re: #14 Charles

And Geller & Spencer are meeting up with their European counterparts next month for their first ever trans-Atlantic joint conference. I'd call it a confederacy of dunces if they weren't so damned toxic & dangerous in the current political climate.

17 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 2:51:10pm

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

*waves @ Sergey*

18 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 3:02:29pm

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

Hello Sergey! Good to see you!

You should come here more often.

19 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 3:10:18pm

re: #17 CuriousLurker

*waves @ Sergey*

{{CL}}

20 General Nimrod Bodfish  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:11:57pm

re: #3 marjoriemoon

Glad you decided to post, CL. As long as Charles allows it, you shouldn't worry about anyone else. At least, that's my philosophy LOL

I make very clear distinctions between how Islam is practiced in fear based societies and how it's practiced in freedom based societies.

I do not like the Palestinian people. I quite loathe them, actually and I have little feeling for the 22 very wealthy Arab countries who do nothing to help them, even as they live as refugees in their own lands. That would solve the problem, if the Arab nations would reach out to their own brothers and sisters, but they have no desire.

However, when these people flee tyranny for freedom, it is up to us to extend our hands and I believe that very strongly.

You may remember the story last month in Miami and Fort Lauderdale where an Imam and his family were indicted for allegedly providing aid to the Pakistani Taliban. The case is pending, but the Imam ran a mosque in Margate (Broward County). Residents decided that the mosque should be closed and began to picket. It seems like the standard reaction when these things happen, run them out of town.

Who is running the Catholics out of town when a priest fondles a young boy? Who calls for the church closing? No one, actually.

I agree with everything there except the bolded part. If there's one thing I loathe about the Palestinians, is that they allowed the militant among them to take over their government and prolong the needless suffering that they are experiencing, as well as allowing the militant version of Islam take hold of their culture. Granted, not all of it is their fault.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:13:48pm

re: #8 Naso Tang

Way to label yourself.

CL doesn't take any criticism without crying foul. We can lambaste creationists or Christian hate mongers to our heart's content, but dare point out inconsistencies in CL's versions of wacky beliefs and it is called Islamophobia or trolling.

I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy, and that is what I call you.

What hypocrisy, exactly? When has CL ever defended Muslim creationists or hatemongers?

22 HappyWarrior  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:22:25pm

Honestly, the rise of Islamaphobia has been something that is alarming to me. As a student of history, I know just what crap like this leads to and it's not pretty. CL thanks for posting this. I love what the SPLC does in fighting bigotry whether it be racism against racial minority groups, religious discrimination, or homophobia. They do a hell of a job.

23 Obdicut  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:26:02pm

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

What hypocrisy, exactly? When has CL ever defended Muslim creationists or hatemongers?

Weirdly enough, she's actually pointed out Muslim creationists and whackjobs before.

Whodathunkit.

24 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:47:08pm

re: #13 CuriousLurker

I'm not going to pretend that first part doesn't bother me in its scope, but as long as you're not calling for violent collective retribution against them or blaming all Muslims for the sins of a few, then I'm not going to fight with you over it. I also have no knowledge of what personal losses you may have suffered to make you feel that way.

I know what I said bothers a lot of people (obviously). I wish I had a better gift of explaining myself like SFZ, because I know she understands me. SFZ designated,

I have political, personal and tribal issues with certain Muslim schools of thought, and the actions of certain Muslim-majority nations. But I have enough knowledge of Islam and of Muslims not to conflate the Hamas charter, or the terrible human rights records of Saudi Arabia or Iran with 'Islam',

Of course, no one "facepalmed" her... but ok. I agree with her 100%. Other than you, my friend, my comment that once those living in tyranny are able to make the dreadful and probably dangerous trek to leave their fear-based societies deserve our respect, admiration and help was ignored... but ok there too.

I do not believe in annihilation nor genocide. Of anyone. Ever. Neither does the Israeli government. 20% of their population is Arab. Of that, about 16% are Muslim (if I'm recalling correctly). The rest Christian and Druze. They have autonomy and freedom.

Loathing is strong, yes, but I've had many Muslim friends over the years, Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian, to be exact. We never discussed politics. I feel it's better to avoid it and rather find things in common.

My recent post on the Lebanese Mufti who basically read the riot act to a Palestinian delegation got one response, from SFZ (bless her soul!) I know no one wants to touch these topics, lest we leave all bloodied (so I'll now mention my admiration of YOU to venture into this territory)! But there is great wealth among the Arab nations. They are able to reach out, like the Jews (and others too) reached out to the refugees of WWII and helped them. Yet the problem in the disputed territories is always left at the feet of the Israelis. We talked before about the Arab Spring, so maybe there will be some changes in the future.

Basically, really, I take people one-on-one. Don't most people? Unless you're truly a bigot. I adore diversity and the town I live in. I would live in the country again. I'm more comfortable with people who have lots of stories to tell.

A Muslim friend and I were chatting the other day, discussing the Margate mosque and he was the one who brought up the Catholic analogy. Quite brilliant (but then again, he's pretty groovy).

25 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:50:03pm

re: #10 wrenchwench

re: #21 SanFranciscoZionist

re: #23 Obdicut

I'm beginning to think I have a doppelgänger that logs on when I'm sleeping and commits all sorts of mischief...

26 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:54:11pm

re: #20 commadore183

I agree with everything there except the bolded part. If there's one thing I loathe about the Palestinians, is that they allowed the militant among them to take over their government and prolong the needless suffering that they are experiencing, as well as allowing the militant version of Islam take hold of their culture. Granted, not all of it is their fault.

Agreed.

For all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter to the Israelis. I mean in the sense that the bombs are still being sent from the territories. That people have precious few seconds to run for shelter. The disruption and terror they live with every day. I don't know how they do it.

Each person has a responsibility for themselves to live a life of justice, fairness and freedom. If that means fleeing with only the clothes on your back, you do that. I know people who have done this, personally, not just my own family, but current friends. Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, many, many people.

27 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 4:57:12pm

re: #24 marjoriemoon

Basically, really, I take people one-on-one. Don't most people? Unless you're truly a bigot. I adore diversity and the town I live in. I would never live in the country again. I'm more comfortable with people who have lots of stories to tell.

...typing too fast....

28 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 5:42:08pm

re: #24 marjoriemoon

I did see your page on the Qabbani, but I pretty much stopped reading and went elsewhere when I got to the "trash" part because that language coming from a Mufti made me very uncomfortable. I don't know a lot about the situation in Lebanon with the Palestinians, but it can't be good if he was that pissed in a public enough way to make international news.

I'll just have to wallow in my ignorance on the Lebanese aspect for a while longer since at present my main focus is getting a grip on the basics of Judaism, Zionism, and the creation of the (modern) state of Israel. That right there is enough to keep me busy for a good long while. FWIW, I knew a lot of Palestinians back in Texas, so I'm already somewhat familiar with their side of the story.

Loathing is strong, yes, but I've had many Muslim friends over the years, Palestinian, Lebanese and Syrian, to be exact. We never discussed politics. I feel it's better to avoid it and rather find things in common.

Finding things in common is usually the best place to start, IMO. I don't shy away from tough subjects in real life, but neither do I want to throw away friendships over them. I guess what friends can safely talk about depends on the strength & value of the friendship, and each party's willingness or ability to step back when it looks like the Rubicon is about to be crossed.

If I truly love & value my friend, then winning an argument or having the satisfaction of driving home my point isn't worth deeply hurting her (or him). Losing a good friend is a no-win option to me because I wouldn't waste time befriending someone if I didn't think they were a truly decent, caring person despite their imperfections (of which I also have plenty). Friends are too hard to find. Or maybe I'm too picky. :)

29 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 5:47:00pm

re: #27 marjoriemoon

Basically, really, I take people one-on-one. Don't most people? Unless you're truly a bigot. I adore diversity and the town I live in. I would never live in the country again. I'm more comfortable with people who have lots of stories to tell.

I would like to think so, but when I look at all the awful stuff that happens around the world I'm not so sure.

Stories are good. I adore stories. I wish I could afford to fly SFZ over here just to sit & listen to her tell stories for about a week.

30 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 5:57:07pm

re: #22 HappyWarrior

Honestly, the rise of Islamaphobia has been something that is alarming to me. As a student of history, I know just what crap like this leads to and it's not pretty. CL thanks for posting this. I love what the SPLC does in fighting bigotry whether it be racism against racial minority groups, religious discrimination, or homophobia. They do a hell of a job.

It's good to know there are so many people out there like yourself & others here who care enough to be alarmed and voice concern. It makes up for the ugliness more than you may realize.

The SPLC does indeed do a hell of a job. Now that you mention it, I think this weekend I'll make a point of sitting down and writing thank you emails to them and a few others who've published really good stories on this stuff over the past year or so. No doubt they get more than their fair share of hate mail, so they could probably use a little love. :)

31 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 6:15:41pm

re: #28 CuriousLurker

I did see your page on the Qabbani, but I pretty much stopped reading and went elsewhere when I got to the "trash" part because that language coming from a Mufti made me very uncomfortable. I don't know a lot about the situation in Lebanon with the Palestinians, but it can't be good if he was that pissed in a public enough way to make international news.

I'll just have to wallow in my ignorance on the Lebanese aspect for a while longer since at present my main focus is getting a grip on the basics of Judaism, Zionism, and the creation of the (modern) state of Israel. That right there is enough to keep me busy for a good long while. FWIW, I knew a lot of Palestinians back in Texas, so I'm already somewhat familiar with their side of the story.

Finding things in common is usually the best place to start, IMO. I don't shy away from tough subjects in real life, but neither do I want to throw away friendships over them. I guess what friends can safely talk about depends on the strength & value of the friendship, and each party's willingness or ability to step back when it looks like the Rubicon is about to be crossed.

If I truly love & value my friend, then winning an argument or having the satisfaction of driving home my point isn't worth deeply hurting her (or him). Losing a good friend is a no-win option to me because I wouldn't waste time befriending someone if I didn't think they were a truly decent, caring person despite their imperfections (of which I also have plenty). Friends are too hard to find. Or maybe I'm too picky. :)

The comment from the Mufti was shocking because as you say, you don't hear it. I think the world is woefully uninformed about the reality in Lebanon, Jordan and Egypt for Palestinian refugees. I personally feel that's purposeful to keep the focus on demonizing Israel. The info is there, even on UNRWA's website, but you have to look for it. Few are making news of it.

But it also occurred to me that there is animosity against these particular people within the Arab community. I think it was the article on Jordan, they specifically mentioned the Gazans. So it isn't only Israel that has a problem, nor me, nor millions of others. Where that leaves us, well, pretty much no where.

The farthest I've got in religious conversation with Muslims is about culture which I very much enjoyed. Well, I dated a Lebanese guy once. OOoo hot daddy. Not a lot of religious chat either :p

My friend and I who were talking about the Margate Mosque protests also talked about the Egyptian uprising. Although now I remember, I asked him what he thought of the Muslim Brotherhood. His response was, "Who is that?" He honestly didn't know. I don't think he's all that political! You're probably the only one I've chatted about these topics with.

I lost friends at the 2008 election over political differences. Two co-workers actually, one I went to rallies with previously. They sent me bigoted emails and when I rebutted them, they want off on really racist tangents. That was the end of that, but they didn't like me anymore either so....

32 What, me worry?  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 6:50:43pm

re: #29 CuriousLurker

I would like to think so, but when I look at all the awful stuff that happens around the world I'm not so sure.

You have to remain vigilant. That's what frustrates me about people who think it can't happen here. It can happen everywhere. OTOH, I try to focus and surround myself with open minded folks otherwise I think I'd go nuts.

33 justaminute  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:09:09pm

Hi CL!

Islamaphobia. When I married my husband it was simply "We hate you because of the hostages in Iran." The hate we received then, or rather face to face confrontation was surprisingly more than it is now. And this is Oklahoma. I am always on the lookout. But after reading so much about it but never having to deal with it like in the past make me wonder how much a roll the Internet plays. If you add the Internet to talk radio and TV pundits it's crazy.

The hate on the Internet wears me out. It's not just Islam, it's any religion. It's Dem vs Rep.You name it. The anonymity of the Internet has just cranked it up to 10. If I spend to much time on it and leave the house I expect to run into it on a person to person interaction too but I don't. If my Muslim friends wore hejab maybe I would see more of it but they don't. I just don't see a end to it now, not with all the various amplification described above. All previous immigrants over the years put up with a lot but all this just makes it worse. IMHO

34 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:09:33pm

re: #31 marjoriemoon

WRT the Arab countries, now that you point it out I realize that the Palestinian diaspora seems to do quite well in other places except for those. Hmmm...odd. Maybe they're aware they're being used and...I'll have to ponder that some more.

The farthest I've got in religious conversation with Muslims is about culture which I very much enjoyed. Well, I dated a Lebanese guy once. OOoo hot daddy. Not a lot of religious chat either :p

Oh gosh, culture. The food, it's to die for! Heh and, yeah, the Lebanese tend to be quite an attractive bunch.

My friend and I who were talking about the Margate Mosque protests also talked about the Egyptian uprising. Although now I remember, I asked him what he thought of the Muslim Brotherhood. His response was, "Who is that?" He honestly didn't know. I don't think he's all that political! You're probably the only one I've chatted about these topics with.

I lost friends at the 2008 election over political differences. Two co-workers actually, one I went to rallies with previously. They sent me bigoted emails and when I rebutted them, they want off on really racist tangents. That was the end of that, but they didn't like me anymore either so...

I'm sorry to hear friendships were broken over politics, but you were right to push back against bigotry. Their loss.

We've never met in person, but I hope we will one day when you're up this way, so can we make a deal? We'll try to talk about the difficult stuff when we feel we can, but if either one of us feels like....not good about it at any given time, then we'll just drop it in the interests of actually having a chance to talk face to face & heart to heart?

I don't know about you, but once I've seen the light of human life in another person's eyes—the same light, from the same source that illuminates my eyes—it...what? This life, this existence is a veil that separates us...Oh, never mind. Now I'm going off on a mystical sufi poetry train of thought and people are gonna think I'm a complete nutter. LOL

35 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:14:27pm

re: #28 CuriousLurker

I did see your page on the Qabbani, but I pretty much stopped reading and went elsewhere when I got to the "trash" part because that language coming from a Mufti made me very uncomfortable. I don't know a lot about the situation in Lebanon with the Palestinians, but it can't be good if he was that pissed in a public enough way to make international news.

The Palestinian situation in Lebanon is weird. As is the Palestinian situation everywhere else. They have very limited civil rights, and are sort in a state of permanent limbo. There's a lot of resentment both ways. The Lebanese insist that they can't give them full citizenship rights, because that would a. just encourage the Israelis and b. upset the careful religious and ethnic balance that Lebanon maintains in an effort to preclude another vicious civil war.

36 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:18:36pm

re: #34 CuriousLurker

WRT the Arab countries, now that you point it out I realize that the Palestinian diaspora seems to do quite well in other places except for those. Hmmm...odd. Maybe they're aware they're being used and...I'll have to ponder that some more.

It's noticeable. Palestinians who come to the States, or Europe, tend to do very well for themselves. The community values education and is highly entrepreneurial--that old Levantine magic.

But in the States they can, for example, buy property and work in all professions. They can become U.S. citizens if they choose, and have voting rights. That's not true in Lebanon or Jordan. So the folks stuck there are...really stuck.

37 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:20:24pm

re: #33 justaminute

Hi yourself! Good to see you. ;o)

Yeah, the hate on the internet is heavy, generally much worse and more frequent than real life, especially where politics & religion are concerned. I don't find it nearly as much among my designer friends or among coders, programmers, and other techie types.

Yeah, hijab and beards can a freaking hate/fear magnet in real life. And you're sooo right about anonymity making things worse online. I guess we just have to bear it until it passes (and some other unfortunate group becomes the new bogeyman).

38 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:21:16pm

re: #32 marjoriemoon

You have to remain vigilant. That's what frustrates me about people who think it can't happen here. It can happen everywhere. OTOH, I try to focus and surround myself with open minded folks otherwise I think I'd go nuts.

{{{mm}}}

39 CuriousLurker  Wed, Jun 22, 2011 7:32:07pm

re: #35 SanFranciscoZionist

The Palestinian situation in Lebanon is weird. As is the Palestinian situation everywhere else. They have very limited civil rights, and are sort in a state of permanent limbo. There's a lot of resentment both ways. The Lebanese insist that they can't give them full citizenship rights, because that would a. just encourage the Israelis and b. upset the careful religious and ethnic balance that Lebanon maintains in an effort to preclude another vicious civil war.

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

It's noticeable. Palestinians who come to the States, or Europe, tend to do very well for themselves. The community values education and is highly entrepreneurial--that old Levantine magic.

But in the States they can, for example, buy property and work in all professions. They can become U.S. citizens if they choose, and have voting rights. That's not true in Lebanon or Jordan. So the folks stuck there are...really stuck.

Thanks a bunch for this helpful info. Gawd, it's all so FUBAR.

I spent all day coding and my synapses have now started misfiring. In addition, my feline overlords are literally getting up in my face to let me know LGF time is over, so I'm gonna call it quits for now.

Nite, SFZ (and anyone else reading).

40 boxhead  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 12:05:43am
that not only do these tactics detract attention from the very real threat posed by actual terrorists, but they exacerbate tensions.

Great point CuriousLurker. I have not thought of these actions in this fashion. It is like using a very wide flood light to conduct a search when, due to circumstances, a smaller, more intense light is required.

I like your way of thinking, do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? heh

41 wrenchwench  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 9:56:13am

re: #40 boxhead

Great point CuriousLurker. I have not thought of these actions in this fashion. It is like using a very wide flood light to conduct a search when, due to circumstances, a smaller, more intense light is required.

I like your way of thinking, do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? heh

Next to her nic, just under the headline of this article, there's an orange square. Click that to subscribe to the RSS feed of the Pages she posts here. Next to that is a link to her Twitter account. You can follow her there. That's the best we can do until the newsletter hint gets picked up!

42 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 10:23:34am

re: #34 CuriousLurker

WRT the Arab countries, now that you point it out I realize that the Palestinian diaspora seems to do quite well in other places except for those. Hmmm...odd. Maybe they're aware they're being used and...I'll have to ponder that some more.

Oh gosh, culture. The food, it's to die for! Heh and, yeah, the Lebanese tend to be quite an attractive bunch.

I'm sorry to hear friendships were broken over politics, but you were right to push back against bigotry. Their loss.

We've never met in person, but I hope we will one day when you're up this way, so can we make a deal? We'll try to talk about the difficult stuff when we feel we can, but if either one of us feels like...not good about it at any given time, then we'll just drop it in the interests of actually having a chance to talk face to face & heart to heart?

I don't know about you, but once I've seen the light of human life in another person's eyes—the same light, from the same source that illuminates my eyes—it...what? This life, this existence is a veil that separates us...Oh, never mind. Now I'm going off on a mystical sufi poetry train of thought and people are gonna think I'm a complete nutter. LOL

Well there's good nutty and bad nutty :)

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I also don't always have the heart for this stuff. I wanted to say that if we ever did meet (and I'd love it) we'd probably never get to those meaty topics and just gossip about all the lizards :p And if we did, I'm guessing it wouldn't be as difficult as I imagine.

43 What, me worry?  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 10:30:09am

re: #36 SanFranciscoZionist

It's noticeable. Palestinians who come to the States, or Europe, tend to do very well for themselves. The community values education and is highly entrepreneurial--that old Levantine magic.

But in the States they can, for example, buy property and work in all professions. They can become U.S. citizens if they choose, and have voting rights. That's not true in Lebanon or Jordan. So the folks stuck there are...really stuck.

It also brings up the topic of immigration and what makes this country so amazing. It's one our greatest assets. We take the "tired, the poor, the huddled masses, the wretched refuse." You got em? We want em! Ok, well not so much lately.

This is one aspect of Americanism I feel dreadful about losing, lest we become a backwards nation.

44 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 4:00:38pm

re: #40 boxhead

Great point CuriousLurker. I have not thought of these actions in this fashion. It is like using a very wide flood light to conduct a search when, due to circumstances, a smaller, more intense light is required.

I like your way of thinking, do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? heh

I can't really take credit for making the point as I saw it here on LGF first. I love your spotlight analogy.

No, no newsletter. I actually dislike writing, though you wouldn't think so considering how verbose I can be, heh.

45 CuriousLurker  Thu, Jun 23, 2011 4:02:37pm

re: #42 marjoriemoon

Well there's good nutty and bad nutty :)

Sorry I didn't respond earlier, but I also don't always have the heart for this stuff. I wanted to say that if we ever did meet (and I'd love it) we'd probably never get to those meaty topics and just gossip about all the lizards :p And if we did, I'm guessing it wouldn't be as difficult as I imagine.

No need to apologize, I understand. Hopefully, we'll get to test your theory one day. ;o)


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