&#147;Human Rights Community&#148; Agrees: Gilad Shalit Should Remain in Captivity &laquo; Commentary Magazine

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“Human Rights Community” Agrees: Gilad Shalit Should Remain in Captivity « Commentary Magazine

By reine.de.tout

Middle East • June 2011 • Views: 2,319

commentarymagazine.com

The cowardice is stunning:

Tomorrow marks the five-year anniversary of the Hamas raid into Israel in which Gilad Shalit was wounded and then dragged through a tunnel into the Gaza Strip, where he remains in captivity to this day. To mark the occasion, 12 prominent “human rights” organizations, including Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and B’Tselem, have issued a joint statement.

If a better example of the utter moral collapse of the human rights community exists, it would be hard to find. The statement is one of passionless brevity — just a few sentences long — and expresses no opinion on the standing of Hamas, or on its 2006 raid into Israel, or on the legitimacy of its goals and methods. Remarkably, it doesn’t even demand the release of Gilad Shalit. The most that this allegedly courageous and principled human rights community could bring itself to say to the terrorists of Hamas is that they should improve the conditions of Shalit’s imprisonment. You can read the statement on Human Rights Watch’s website.

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65 comments

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:57:45am

I share your outrage and although we hold differing views, the principle behind our stance is pretty much the same. There are hundreds of Palestinian children imprisoned falsely in Israeli jails. According to BT'selem, the torture of these children is "widespread, systematic and institutionalised" yet all we hear from the international human rights community is a plea to stop this child abuse, rather than a demand to free the the children, some as young as 7. According to your logic (with which I'm in agreement), these so-called human rights organisations agree that Palestinian children should be tortured in israeli jails.
Btw, is the sentence for throwing stones at the separation barrier still 20 years?

SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:48:08am

B'Tselem statement, from their website:

This Saturday, 25 June 2010, will be the fifth anniversary of the abduction of the soldier Gilad Shalit.

Shalit was abducted in June 2006, and has since been held as a hostage in an unknown location and in unknown conditions. His captors have made it clear that he will be held hostage pending the release of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel. Neither the International Committee of the Red Cross nor any other international body has been able to visit him. With the exception of a videotape Hamas published last year showing Shalit, as far as B'Tselem knows, no information has been provided about his physical or mental health.

Shalit is considered a hostage due to the circumstances of his abduction and the manner in which he is being held. International humanitarian law absolutely forbids the taking and holding of a person by force for the purpose of pressuring the adversary to comply with certain demands, while threatening to harm the person if the demands are not met. The taking of hostages is considered a war crime, for which all those involved bear personal criminal liability.

The Hamas leadership in Gaza bears an obligation to release Shalit immediately and unconditionally. Pending his release, his captors must treat him humanely and enable representatives of the ICRC to visit him.

SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:00:36am

Which is not to say that I'm totally disagreeing with Commentary, merely defending B'Tselem a bit.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:07:56am

re: #3 SanFranciscoZionist

Which is not to say that I'm totally disagreeing with Commentary, merely defending B'Tselem a bit.

I don't know about B'Tselem. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are the organizations that caught my eye.

For complete context I should have included the following, which is the statement on Human Rights Watch website:

Marking five years since the capture of Gilad Shalit, Israeli, Palestinian and international human rights organizations state:
Hamas must immediately end inhumane and illegal treatment of Gilad Shalit.

Staff Sergeant Gilad Shalit has been in captivity for five years. Those holding him have refused to allow him to communicate with his family, nor have they provided information on his well-being and the conditions in which he is being held. The organizations stress that this conduct is inhumane and a violation of international humanitarian law.

Hamas authorities in Gaza must immediately end the cruel and inhuman treatment of Gilad Shalit. Until he is released, they must enable him to communicate with his family and should grant him access to the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Amnesty International

B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

Bimkom: Planners for Planning Rights

Gisha - Legal Center for Freedom of Movement

Human Rights Watch

International Federation for Human Rights

Palestinian Center for Human Rights, Gaza

Physicians for Human Rights - Israel

Public Committee Against Torture in Israel

Rabbis for Human Rights

The Association for Civil Rights in Israel

Yesh Din - Volunteers for Human Rights

It calls for the end of inhumane treatment of Gilad Shalit. One of the organizations signing on to this statement is B'Tselem, which as you point out, issued their own separate statement as well.

What, me worry? Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:08:46am

re: #1 Lobengula

I share your outrage and although we hold differing views, the principle behind our stance is pretty much the same. There are hundreds of Palestinian children imprisoned falsely in Israeli jails. According to BT'selem, the torture of these children is "widespread, systematic and institutionalised" yet all we hear from the international human rights community is a plea to stop this child abuse, rather than a demand to free the the children, some as young as 7. According to your logic (with which I'm in agreement), these so-called human rights organisations agree that Palestinian children should be tortured in israeli jails.
Btw, is the sentence for throwing stones at the separation barrier still 20 years?

Going to have to see links to these sources. What I've found on the net all follows the same patterns. The sources and statistics are uncorroborated and Israel is constantly condemned for actions against Palestinians with no mention of Palestinian brutality against Israelis.

Israeli causalities are overwhelmingly civilian while Israel makes every attempt to capture or kill those who specifically murder Israelis. There are claims that Israeli soldiers are routinely authorized to shoot and kill children, but no proof is offered for that either. Israel follows the Geneva Convention rules and is a signatory while the Palestinian Authority does not and is not.

More importantly, Palestinian military tactics include regularly encouraging small children to not just attack Israeli soldiers, but teens were used exclusively as suicide bombers. Children are also used as human shields.

With the billions of dollars the P.A. receives, where are the hospitals and medical care? Israel picks up the pieces here, too. Save a Child's Heart has been healing Palestinian children since 1995.

Since 1995, Save a Child's Heart (SACH) has treated more than 2,600 children suffering from congenital and rheumatic heart disease aging from infancy to 18 years of age from the “four corners of the Earth” - 42 countries where adequate medical care is unavailable.

40% of the children who underwent cardiac surgeries are from Africa; 49% are from the Palestinian Authority, Jordan, Iraq and Morocco; 4% are from Eastern Europe and the Americas and 7% are from Asia.

The Peres Center project "Saving Children" and the "Pediatric Hemato-Oncology Unit" is dedicated to saving the lives of Palestinian children.

The Sheba Medical Center in Israel has partnered with the U.S. and Israeli doctors to provide hearing aids for deaf Palestinian children.

Odd that Israel would do so much for sick Palestinian children and then turn around and brutalize them.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:08:58am

re: #4 reine.de.tout

I don't know about B'Tselem. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are the organizations that caught my eye.

For complete context I should have included the following, which is the statement on Human Rights Watch website:

It calls for the end of inhumane treatment of Gilad Shalit. One of the organizations signing on to this statement is B'Tselem, which as you point out, issued their own separate statement as well.

And I think what they should be calling for is his release.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:10:54am

re: #1 Lobengula

I share your outrage and although we hold differing views, the principle behind our stance is pretty much the same. There are hundreds of Palestinian children imprisoned falsely in Israeli jails. According to BT'selem, the torture of these children is "widespread, systematic and institutionalised" yet all we hear from the international human rights community is a plea to stop this child abuse, rather than a demand to free the the children, some as young as 7. According to your logic (with which I'm in agreement), these so-called human rights organisations agree that Palestinian children should be tortured in israeli jails.
Btw, is the sentence for throwing stones at the separation barrier still 20 years?

I would like to see the links to whatever stories about these children as young as 7 falsely imprisoned in Israeli jails.

What, me worry? Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:47:46am

The accuracy of the B'Tselem claims have also been called into question.

[Link: www.ngo-monitor.org...]

Dubious methodology

B’Tselem’s methodology is problematic and often inconsistent. (See also Tamar Sternthal’s review of B’Tselem’s 2006 report, "B'Tselem's Annual Casualty Figures Questioned"). B'Tselem identifies casualties according to their supposed activity at the moment of their death, and therefore describes "Palestinians killed while not engaged in hostilities," as civilians (page 5). However, according to the Statistics section of B’Tselem’s website, which details the circumstances of each victim’s death, among those listed in this category are known terrorists, Hamas officials, stone throwers (which can be lethal) and "civilians" used by Palestinian terrorists as human shields (whose deaths are the responsibility of the terrorists). This classification system is used despite High Court Justice Aharon Barak’s decision that it is legal for the IDF to target and kill terrorists, even if they are not involved in terrorist activities at the moment of their death. B’Tselem’s statistics therefore do not match the numbers published by the Israeli Shin Bet (Internal Security Services). According to an amended report issued by Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin on January 13, 2008, out of 1000 Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces over the past two years, 810 were categorized terrorists. (By Shin Bet's count, only 190 fatalities were civilians, while B'Tselem's combined figures for 2006 and 2007 describe 453 civilians)

Reporting the facts to promote a political agenda

B’Tselem frequently manipulates facts to promote its biased political agenda. For example, on November 4, 2007, three security guards at a factory in Gaza were killed by a missile fired from an Israeli helicopter, targeting terrorists shooting rockets at Israel from the site of the factory. The terrorists used the guards as human shields, yet B'Tselem counts these casualties among those killed "while not engaged in hostilities." The statistical implication is that Israel is responsible for their deaths, yet B'Tselem later acknowledges the responsibility of the terrorists in such cases (page Heb10/ Eng 12).

It goes on.

See also:
[Link: www.camera.org...]
[Link: www.commentarymagazine.com...]

SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:52:12am

Five years today.

Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Sat, Jun 25, 2011 12:15:01pm

The Human Rights Community: Not giving a fuck for "humans" or "rights" since...

EiMitch Sat, Jun 25, 2011 12:24:18pm

The Palestinians attacked the red cross when asked for proof of life. And the most the international human rights community has to say is "please treat him better, or we'll write you an angry letter."

If these human rights organizations were really so concerned, they would've insisted on a prisoner exchange or something. I realize this is a radical concept, unlike anything the world has ever seen. But its worth a shot.

The real world has become indistinguishable from The Onion.

Buck Sat, Jun 25, 2011 12:42:21pm

re: #1 Lobengula

not one sentence in your post is true. I would normally fisk it myself, but I know antisemitism when I see it, and I won't bother to try and educate you except to say that the 'torture' you describe is illegal in Israel, and so is imprisoning children.

Samson Sat, Jun 25, 2011 1:24:25pm

We are not likely to see Gilad Shalit free any time soon, if ever. The reasons for this, most of them well known to this blog, include:

• He may no longer be alive, having been killed intentionally or not sometime after the last video of him was taken.
• His captors, the eternal victims, believe that they should not - and are certainly not obligated - to follow any international rules or norms. Keep in mind that Shalit is basically a kidnap victim, not a prisoner of war in the usual sense and not accused of any particular crime himself. In most places including the US, kidnapping is a felony crime. The comparison between Shalit's captivity and that of Palestinian prisoners in Israel's jails is laughable. The most recent complaint about the situation in Israel is that the Israelis are guilty of "human rights violations" for threatening to reduce prisoner's access to study toward advanced degrees.
• As already noted, the international community has little interest in pursuing his release, even for the rather important principle of it. The one exception is France, where Shalit holds dual citizenship, and where President Sarkozy has at least expressed an interest in the issue. France has no particular influence over Shalit's captors, however, so their ability to influence events is minimal at best.
• Shalit's captors are understandably reluctant to say anything that could reveal his location or the nature of his captivity. They must keep him pretty well hidden and/or booby-trapped if the IDF could not locate and free him during the invasion of Gaza, assuming that is even where he is.
• The notion that Hamas is simply negotiating for the best deal in terms of who is exchanged for Shalit is actually not correct. There are several reasons why they do NOT want to release under any circumstances, which include:
– The numbers they supposedly expect, at least 1000 for 1 – obscene though they are – are not enough, and can never be enough. The reason is that unless every single prisoner is released, there will be complaints about who was and who wasn't, and in particular, which group they belong to and other associated factor. Despite their purported reconciliation, Hamas and Fatah are in direct competition, and Hamas does not want and cannot afford dissatisfaction with the outcome of any prisoner swap.
– With that in mind, absolute unanimity is required before any deal could be made. Enough said.
– Perhaps the most important reason that Hamas does not want to give up Shalit is that he is the ONLY thing they possess that really matters to the Israelis. I'm sure they would like to have more (e.g., the recent "Bride of Shalit" Facebook page, now removed), but have not had any success in this regard. His captivity is a chronic source of pain and disagreement among Israeli Jews, and Hamas understands how potent this is. Their attempts to create havoc in Israel with missiles - less effective in any case - only leads to reprisals. For Shalit, on the other hand, it appears that there is not much Israel can do for the moment but continue to suffer, a good thing from the point of view of Hamas.

I could go on, but I'm sure by now everyone understands that Shalit is doomed - if he is not dead already - unless he can be located and safely freed by the Israelis. The prospects for this are unknown, but they do not appear to be good or it would have happened long ago. Although the Israeli public has, for the most part, accepted the notion of exchanging Shalit for Palestinian prisoners, I think it is extremely unlikely that we will ever see Shalit exchanged for even 1000 such prisoners any time soon. Bogus negotiations mediated by the EU or some other third party will likely occur on and off for awhile longer, but I will be surprised if anything concrete comes of any of them.

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 2:09:53pm

re: #12 Buck

There are currently hundreds of palestinian children languishing in israeli jails. This is a fact, not an opinion. Save the Children has a breakdown of the numbers. Of note, the majority have been imprisoned for throwing stones at israeli soldiers, a crime that carries a penalty of up to 20 years. B'Tselem has documented numerous cases where children have been physically and psychologically tortured (don’t have a link, just go to their website!). The Defence for Children International similarly documents numerous cases of child imprisonment and torture. Much of this data was obtained by court orders from the Israeli Prison Services, so I don't really see how you can say that child imprisonment isn't a phenomenon in israel. What really pisses me off is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of Israelis and their supporters in the US who (rightly) protest the abduction of a soldier yet remain silent about the hundreds of palestinian kids taken off the street, away from their parents, tortured and put into Israeli custody, in clear defiance of the Geneva Convention. Are their lives worth less than Gilad Shalit’s? There is a disgusting, racist attitude underlying such an approach.
Buck, your accusation of prejudice clearly demonstrates that Israel is beyond reproach in your eyes. You can (and have) uttered bigoted statements about other ethnic/religious groups on this site and yet you mechanically throw out “anti-Semitism” whenever you feel Israel is being challenged in any way. You really are a giant dick.
Interesting and surprisingly objective article from Time Magazine here.

Mickey Blumental Sat, Jun 25, 2011 2:24:24pm

Forget Palestinian brutality against Israelis... Palestinian brutality against Palestinians is bad enough. A Palestinian prisoner is far better off in an Israeli prison than a Palestinian one, assuming one survives long enough to get to one.

Michael McBacon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 3:05:23pm

Lobengula, I am an Israel supporter and believe it or not, am just as concerned about the health of Arab Palestinian children as much as Gilad Shalit's. Currently reading 'Palestinian Prisoners: The systematic and institutionalised ill-treatment and torture of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities' and browsing the Israeli Ministry of Public Security website.

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 3:54:14pm

re: #14 Lobengula

There are currently hundreds of palestinian children languishing in israeli jails. This is a fact, not an opinion. Save the Children has a breakdown of the numbers. Of note, the majority have been imprisoned for throwing stones at israeli soldiers, a crime that carries a penalty of up to 20 years. B'Tselem has documented numerous cases where children have been physically and psychologically tortured (don’t have a link, just go to their website!). The Defence for Children International similarly documents numerous cases of child imprisonment and torture. Much of this data was obtained by court orders from the Israeli Prison Services, so I don't really see how you can say that child imprisonment isn't a phenomenon in israel. What really pisses me off is the sheer and utter hypocrisy of Israelis and their supporters in the US who (rightly) protest the abduction of a soldier yet remain silent about the hundreds of palestinian kids taken off the street, away from their parents, tortured and put into Israeli custody, in clear defiance of the Geneva Convention. Are their lives worth less than Gilad Shalit’s? There is a disgusting, racist attitude underlying such an approach.
Buck, your accusation of prejudice clearly demonstrates that Israel is beyond reproach in your eyes. You can (and have) uttered bigoted statements about other ethnic/religious groups on this site and yet you mechanically throw out “anti-Semitism” whenever you feel Israel is being challenged in any way. You really are a giant dick.
Interesting and surprisingly objective article from Time Magazine here.

You that those rocks are lethal weapons, right? Given that, children detained for having done that have to be punished. If you let them return to their families they'll be rewarded instead of punished and that just invites future attacks. No, they must be detained. Anything else is a "Broken Window".

Buck Sat, Jun 25, 2011 4:05:05pm

re: #14 Lobengula

This is a fact, not an opinion.

Interesting and surprisingly objective article from Time Magazine here.

I remember Time Magazine, I used to read it before it published that anti semetic article where the jews were happy with war cause it made them rich. I wouldn't use the magazine for toilet paper since then.

I won't be clicking on your links, because I already know what they say. A bunch of allegations, with no more proof than al-dura or any of the other new blood libel.

I will repeat myself one time: Torture is illegal in Israel, and so is imprisoning children.

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 4:10:22pm

re: #18 Buck

I remember Time Magazine, I used to read it before it published that anti semetic article where the jews were happy with war cause it made them rich. I wouldn't use the magazine for toilet paper since then.

I won't be clicking on your links, because I already know what they say. A bunch of allegations, with no more proof than al-dura or any of the other new blood libel.

I will repeat myself one time: Torture is illegal in Israel, and so is imprisoning children.

And I add to my #17: If Israel sometimes detains children, it does not imprison them with adults and as Buck points out, Israel does not practice torture. "Torture Allegations" against Israel are normally manufactured by stretching the definition of torture to cover things like prolonged interrogations or being handcuffed while being interrogated (practices that are not actually torture, though they are stressful).

M. Dubious Sat, Jun 25, 2011 4:11:26pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

How about a compromize? In stead of jailing rock throwing kids, how about putting their parents away in stead? It would be a win-win: No kids in jail, and an incentive for, you know, parenting. Even Logenbula would approve, I think.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 4:24:18pm

re: #14 Lobengula

The story mentions 13-year-old Walid, accused of throwing stones and of striking and IDF soldier. The hitting of the soldier charge was tossed, and he was sentenced to 28 days and a fine for the stone throwing. Was he throwing stones? That can be lethal - a driver here was killed a few years ago when someone threw a stone that went through the windshield and killed him. It's not playing.

That story mentions a child of 10 who was asked by IDF to show them where his father's weapons were stored, and had a gun pointed at him when the question was asked.

Then it talks in general about a group of 150 which included some (no specific number mentioned) as young as 14.

Your first post mentions children as young as 7. Do you have anything more specific than this story (which honestly, looks to me like it could have been written by Hamas), and anything showing the detention and incarceration of 7-year-olds?

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 5:04:52pm

re: #14 Lobengula

If you weren't such a self righteous, disingenuous prick, I'd take you more seriously.

You don't get to talk about prejudice when you come to the defense of those for whom racism bigotry and hate are all acceptable forms of expression. Further, when you side with those for whom racism, bigotry and hate are deliberate policies, you yourself have chosen to identify yourself as a bigot.

Yes, you are a bigot, no less repulsive than any Klan member.

You have chosen to identify with and defend those for whom 'We'll finish what Hitler started' is as common a refrain as 'Have a nice day'.

You have chosen to identify with and defend those for whom state sponsored racism, bigoted school curricula and a vicious and visceral state sponsored 24/7 are a media hatefest.

I don't give a rats ass about Israel's imperfections. They are a far cry from your deliberate deceit and hate. Israel has a remarkable capacity to self correct- unlike the bigots and racists you defend. Their broken and dysfunctional pathologies have only escalated.

That you dare to compare Israel to those who openly call for her destruction and the butcher of her inhabitants is laughable. That only serves to highlight your own moral bankruptcy and rather mediocre capacity for insight.

Just because Israel's enemies might wear pants, eat at a KFC and use cellphones does not make them moral equals. Just because they portray themselves as pious victims does not make it so. You are are assigning equal status to those who hide behind women and children and those who believe UN schools are a perfectly acceptable place to hide weapons and munitions. We'll leave the state sponsored religious bigotry you seem to have no issue with out of the equation for now (if that really did bother you, I'm quite sure 'cleaning house' would be a priority for you. Clearly, you are quite comfortable with racism).

Let me put it in terms even you ought to be able to comprehend:

Imagine you had a neighbor who said he loved puppies and kittens. Imagine that neighbor spent every waking moment of every single day, promising the world that if just given the opportunity, he would take care of puppies and kittens, always. Suppose that neighbor went to the media and declared his commitment to puppies and kittens. Sounds like a pretty wonderful guy, right?

Now imagine that neighbor also said he wanted to kill black people. Imagine he sang songs about killing blacks and imagine he sent his kids to a school that taught killing black people was mandated by God. Imagine your neighbor voted for a political party who promised the elimination or enslavement of all black people. Imagine that your neighbor went to a church where calls for the genocide of black people was considered a Godly idea. Imagine your neighbor celebrated violence against blacks with great joy and happiness.

Supposing there were a group of black people who lived next door who were sick and tired of all the attacks, threats and calls for genocide made not only by those neighbors, but by their friends as well. Supposing those black people said that they weren’t going to acquiesce to their bigoted and violent neighbor.

Maybe that wonderful neighbor who says he only wants to take care of kittens and puppies isn’t so wonderful after all. Maybe we ought to be asking people like you why they are elevating the bigoted and racist neighbor? Shouldn’t we be asking people like you why they are characterizing those neighbors as loving puppies and kittens but not talking about their racism, bigotry and genocidal intent?

Lobengula, how often have we heard the expression ‘you are known by the company you keep’?

Know what I mean? Sure you do.

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 7:24:01pm

re: #17 Dark_Falcon

You that those rocks are lethal weapons, right? Given that, children detained for having done that have to be punished

and what about settler children who throw rocks at Palestinian civilians? are they to be detained and tortured too? Or does your philosophy only apply to those dirty palestinians?

I will repeat myself one time: Torture is illegal in Israel, and so is imprisoning children.

Buck, you're a moron. The figures come from Israeli Prison Services. Is the IPS antisemitic? Who else is antisemitic? That word sure is thrown around a lot these days.

Further, when you side with those for whom racism, bigotry and hate are deliberate policies, you yourself have chosen to identify yourself as a bigot. Yes, you are a bigot, no less repulsive than any Klan member. You have chosen to identify with and defend those for whom 'We'll finish what Hitler started' is as common a refrain as 'Have a nice day'.

Oh please, spare me your bullshit copypasta response. How have I in any way demonstrated support for hamas? Do you realise that you have accused me of advocating genocide of the jewish people, simply for highlighting some troubling facts about children in Israeli prisons? By deliberately conflating jewish ethnicity with Israeli govt policies, you are seeking to muzzle debate. No my friend, it is you who is disingenuous.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:00:00pm

re: #23 Lobengula

and what about settler children who throw rocks at Palestinian civilians? are they to be detained and tortured too? Or does your philosophy only apply to those dirty palestinians?

Buck, you're a moron. The figures come from Israeli Prison Services. Is the IPS antisemitic? Who else is antisemitic? That word sure is thrown around a lot these days.

Oh please, spare me your bullshit copypasta response. How have I in any way demonstrated support for hamas? Do you realise that you have accused me of advocating genocide of the jewish people, simply for highlighting some troubling facts about children in Israeli prisons? By deliberately conflating jewish ethnicity with Israeli govt policies, you are seeking to muzzle debate. No my friend, it is you who is disingenuous.

Do you really want to compare the Israelis to the Palestinians? Do you really want to go there? Do you really want to compare Israel to one of the most dysfunctional and broken societies in the world?

Besides world class antisemitism and terror, what exactly have the Palestinians given the world? What shining examples of morality can they point to?

By the way, it's not just the Israelis who see the Palestinian leadership for who they are. Last week, the mufti of Lebanon said Palestinians are no longer welcome in Lebanon

The mufti of Lebanon, Sheikh Mohammed Rashid Qabbani, was quoted this week as saying that Palestinians are no longer welcome in his country. He also condemned Palestinians as “trash,” and said that he’s not afraid of their weapons.

Sheikh Qabbani’s remarks were made during a meeting he held in his office in Beirut with a Palestinian delegation, representing refugees and various Palestinian factions in Lebanon.

The furious mufti later kicked the Palestinian representatives out of his office..

Then again, bigots like you don't really care, do you?

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:00:01pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Israeli law only allows children 12 and over to be detained and incarcerated for throwing stones (how merciful!). Children who are younger, like this 7 year old, are detained, beaten and then freed. As for stone-throwing being an offence, why are settler children exempt from this rule when attacking palestinians? Come on now, that’s just a little bit racist, no? I mean, even firing a gun at a Palestinian isn’t guaranteed to land you in hot water.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:12:30pm

re: #25 Lobengula

Your link for the 7 -year-old didn't work for me.
Page could not be found.

The guy in your other link was charged, and it looks to me like he would have been prosecuted except that the prosecution of his case would have required revealing classified information that would harm state security. They made a decision to protect their security rather than prosecute. Those sorts of decisions are made here, as well.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:13:04pm

re: #25 Lobengula

Israeli law only allows children 12 and over to be detained and incarcerated for throwing stones (how merciful!). Children who are younger, like this 7 year old, are detained, beaten and then freed. As for stone-throwing being an offence, why are settler children exempt from this rule when attacking palestinians? Come on now, that’s just a little bit racist, no? I mean, even firing a gun at a Palestinian isn’t guaranteed to land you in hot water.

Outliers? That is no pattern of behavior, Is that the best you can do?

Again, do you really want to compare the Israelis to the Palestinians? Do you really want to go there?

You need to send in one of your smarter friends.

Believing you can present anecdotes and outliers as a pattern of behavior may work with 16 year olds but just won't cut it with informed adults.

Of course I'm not surprised at your response. I'll bet you piously noted the deliberate and targeted massacre of innocents in Itamar was regrettable, but entirely justified.

(This is where you get to say, 'all violence is terrible')

Now, how about a rousing round of that favorite Hamas kindergarten ditty, 'HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!'

C'mon, you know you want to.

What, me worry? Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:20:21pm

re: #23 Lobengula

You can't use Hebron as any kind of example. It's a hotbed of violence and has been for many years. Everyone is attacking everyone in Hebron, Jew and Arab alike.

If you're going to scream about violence in Hebron, then also mention this.

Arab Sniper kills 10 year old baby
[Link: www.israelinsider.com...]

12 Murdered on Shabbot
[Link: www.israelnewsagency.com...]

Sniper Hill
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Bibi gave Hebron to the P.A. in 97 (bad decision!). The Jews who still live there, with every right to live there as it's one of our most sacred cities (Abraham's family is buried there) refuse to move and refuse to be intimidated. They fight back, yes, absolutely.

Hebron has had other dangerous moments throughout modern history including the pogroms of Jews in 1929. [Link: www.forward.com...]

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:20:34pm

re: #27 researchok

Outliers? That is no pattern of behavior, Is that the best you can do?

Again, do you really want to compare the Israelis to the Palestinians? Do you really want to go there?

You need to send in one of your smarter friends.

Believing you can present anecdotes and outliers as a pattern of behavior may work with 16 year olds but just won't cut it with informed adults.

Of course I'm not surprised at your response. I'll bet you piously noted the deliberate and targeted massacre of innocents in Itamar was regrettable, but entirely justified.

(This is where you get to say, 'all violence is terrible')

Now, how about a rousing round of that favorite Hamas kindergarten ditty, 'HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!'

C'mon, you know you want to.

He's a conspiracy theorist, and he thinks that there's a US Conservative- Israeli conspiracy to screw over the Palestinians. Having convinced himself of that, Lobengula will cite outliers and facts taken out if context to "prove" his theory. If you try to cite the facts to him, such as that Israel does a very through job of policing itself in such matters and cite the numerous internal investigations Israel has conducted (often followed closely by changes intended to reduce the harm to those who loudly proclaim their desire to murder Jews), he'll just spew out some more BS. He's made up his mind that the problem lies with the EEEVViLL JOOOS.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:23:17pm

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

He's a conspiracy theorist, and he thinks that there's a US Conservative- Israeli conspiracy to screw over the Palestinians. Having convinced himself of that, Lobengula will cite outliers and facts taken out if context to "prove" his theory. If you try to cite the facts to him, such as that Israel does a very through job of policing itself in such matters and cite the numerous internal investigations Israel has conducted (often followed closely by changes intended to reduce the harm to those who loudly proclaim their desire to murder Jews), he'll just spew out some more BS. He's made up his mind that the problem lies with the EEEVViLL JOOOS.

He's a bigot. first and foremost.

His manipulation of the facts and deliberate deceit speak to that.

This isn't about Israel. That's just the code word.

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:24:58pm

re: #30 researchok

He's a bigot. first and foremost.

His manipulation of the facts and deliberate deceit speak to that.

This isn't about Israel. That's just the code word.

Quite Concur. Fake accusations against Israel are a warning sign of Jew-Hate.

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:29:17pm

re: #24 researchok

Do you really want to compare the Israelis to the Palestinians? Do you really want to go there? Do you really want to compare Israel to one of the most dysfunctional and broken societies in the world?

Ok dude, you have to be more substantive in your replies. I have provided fact after fact but your counter-argument consists of vague statements about how great israel is and how antisemitic i am. Don't waste my time if you're not willing to engage in a rational point-by-point debate.

Now, how about a rousing round of that favorite Hamas kindergarten ditty, 'HAMAS! HAMAS! JEWS TO THE GAS!'
C'mon, you know you want to.

How old are you? This is a thread about an Israeli in Palestinian captivity. I point out that hundreds of palestinian children are detained and tortured in israeli jails without so much as a peep from the israeli community. Is that not a valid counterpoint? Do you respond to all criticisms of israel with such vile accusations of antisemitism? You are a disturbed, insecure little man.

Lobengula will cite outliers and facts taken out if context to "prove" his theory. f you try to cite the facts to him...he'll just spew out some more BS

Outliers? hardly. Since providing palestinians with video cameras, B'Tselem has documented dozens of videos of settlers throwing stones and shooting palestinians. You should visit [Link: www.btselem.org...] It's a very informative site! But my question remains: who detains and tortures the settlers for abusing palestinians? And buck, i provided you with ample evidence re child prisoners in israel. Will you concede that you were wrong, that israel does in fact incarcerate little children, or do you still think this is some elaborate antisemitic conspiracy?

Lobengula Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:33:56pm

re: #30 researchok

This isn't about Israel. That's just the code word.

No, reading through all your posts, you have accused a fair few people of antisemitism. It's your knee-jerk reaction when confronted by unpleasant facts about israel. Anyway it nice chatting with you. It's 4:30 am here. Hope we can carry on this convo another time, without the childish name calling :)

Dark_Falcon Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:36:04pm

re: #32 Lobengula

Since providing palestinians with video cameras, B'Tselem has documented dozens of videos of settlers throwing stones and shooting palestinians.

You are aware over the Palestinian proclivity for faking Israeli "atrocities". Its so frequent its called Pallywood. Click the link to learn more.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:38:43pm

re: #33 Lobengula

No, reading through all your posts, you have accused a fair few people of antisemitism. It's your knee-jerk reaction when confronted by unpleasant facts about israel. Anyway it nice chatting with you. It's 4:30 am here. Hope we can carry on this convo another time, without the childish name calling :)

Really, bigot?

Which posts are you referring to? Who have I accused? How many is a 'fair number'?

If anything, my track record is clear. I am the last person you ought to call a bigot.

Unlike yourself, of course.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:40:24pm

re: #33 Lobengula

No, reading through all your posts, you have accused a fair few people of antisemitism. It's your knee-jerk reaction when confronted by unpleasant facts about israel. Anyway it nice chatting with you. It's 4:30 am here. Hope we can carry on this convo another time, without the childish name calling :)

I'm not 'name calling'. I'm quite specifically calling you a bigot.

You made your bed. Sleep in it.

Vicious Babushka Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:43:07pm

Not even Hamas is claiming that Israel is holding hundreds of innocent 7-year-olds. They want to trade Shalit for 1,000 of their primo terrorists, many of whom have been convicted of multiple terrorist murders.

There is not even one teenager, let alone a 7-year-old, on Hamas' wish list of terrorists that they want to get for Shalit.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 8:44:37pm

re: #32 Lobengula

OK, bigot, we'll play tomorrow.

And as far as B'Tselem and video cameras,do recall they have been busted for staging videos

I hope you can do better than that.

Of course, I'm sure you already knew that

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:00:30pm

Your friends:

Antisemitism in official PA daily

Holocaust denial and distortion. (You might want to be careful as to how you tiptoe around that without coming across as a denier).

Children as combatants- Promoting violence for children

Kill Jews for Allah

Destroy Israel for Allah

Here's a nice selection of state sponsored, bigoted media.

Palestinian heroes and role models

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:01:15pm

re: #32 Lobengula

. . . And buck, i provided you with ample evidence re child prisoners in israel. Will you concede that you were wrong, that israel does in fact incarcerate little children, or do you still think this is some elaborate antisemitic conspiracy?

I haven't seen ample evidence. I've seen a link to a Time article that is full of vaguery looks like it came out of Hamas' PR department. There is another link about a 7-year-old that doesn't work. There is another link about a settler charged with shooting, and he apparently did, whose prosecution was dropped so that Israel could ensure state security.

That's all I've seen.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:18:51pm

Here's something you can use as it relates to the Holocaust and Jews.

Here's a clip from Egyptian state approved media I know you'll like- Egyptian Cleric Muhammad Al-Zoghbi: Pharaoh Would Ride the Jews Like the Donkeys They Are

Egyptian Religious Leader Sheikh Al-Qaradawi Calls for another Holocaust- at the hands of the Muslims

I am curious, Lobengula- do you support Israel's right to exist. a two state solution, etc?

(I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:19:16pm

re: #40 reine.de.tout

There is another link about a 7-year-old that doesn't work.

I think that's supposed to have been this: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Cached: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:19:50pm

re: #40 reine.de.tout

I haven't seen ample evidence. I've seen a link to a Time article that is full of vaguery looks like it came out of Hamas' PR department. There is another link about a 7-year-old that doesn't work. There is another link about a settler charged with shooting, and he apparently did, whose prosecution was dropped so that Israel could ensure state security.

That's all I've seen.

SHHH!!! You'll upset the narrative!

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:30:08pm

Speaking of the deliberate murder of kids...

More Palestinian deliberate "political expression" as it relates to children

Finally, this will break your heart (not Lobengula's of course. Just all civilized people everywhere)

Then there was Samir Kuntar, 'Hero'

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:30:37pm

re: #43 researchok

SHHH!!! You'll upset the narrative!

LOL.
RIght.
Let's not do that with, you know, genuine facts.
re: #42 000G

I think that's supposed to have been this: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Cached: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]

If that's the right story, then the boy was actually detained. The family says he was battered and they weren't told where he was; the police say the detention was accomplished according to law.

That story doesn't rise to the level of "ample evidence" that Lobengula claims he gave us. There are no photos; nothing but conflicting stories, each side with a story that serves their purpose. Frankly, just from seeing a long history of fabrications from the Palestinian side, I tend to give more weight to the police's story in this one.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:34:48pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

LOL.
RIght.
Let's not do that with, you know, genuine facts.
re: #42 000G

If that's the right story, then the boy was actually detained. The family says he was battered and they weren't told where he was; the police say the detention was accomplished according to law.

That story doesn't rise to the level of "ample evidence" that Lobengula claims he gave us. There are no photos; nothing but conflicting stories, each side with a story that serves their purpose. Frankly, just from seeing a long history of fabrications from the Palestinian side, I tend to give more weight to the police's story in this one.

Let's be realistic- there isn't a whole lot Lobengula can hang his hat on- certainly nothing more than allegations.

This isn't about Israel.

Like those of his ilk before him, the portrayal of certain groups has to be manipulated so that the hatred can be fostered.

reine.de.tout Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:39:36pm

re: #46 researchok

Let's be realistic- there isn't a whole lot Lobengula can hang his hat on- certainly nothing more than allegations.

This isn't about Israel.

Like those of his ilk before him, the portrayal of certain groups has to be manipulated so that the hatred can be fostered.

Agreed. Just trying to sort of rationally point out that what he says doesn't match the information he gave us, nor does it match his characterization of "ample evidence".

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:41:58pm

re: #47 reine.de.tout

Agreed. Just trying to sort of rationally point out that what he says doesn't match the information he gave us, nor does it match his characterization of "ample evidence".

The pious emperor has no clothes.

Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Jun 25, 2011 9:50:37pm

Someone here has a Rachel Corrie poster. AND Tshirt.

researchok Sat, Jun 25, 2011 10:09:37pm

re: #49 Cannadian Club Akbar

Someone here has a Rachel Corrie poster. AND Tshirt.

Oh man, that's the line of the week. Or month.

lobengula Sun, Jun 26, 2011 6:09:27am

re: #47 reine.de.tout

I had written . . .

And buck, i provided you with ample evidence re child prisoners in Israel

and I have. I have cited save the children, B'Tselem and Israeli prison services figures. As for describing the time magazine article as hamasesque, well of course you thought that. It was critical of Israel, which is synonymous with antisemitism, right?

Someone here has a Rachel Corrie poster. AND Tshirt.

I think someone here has the Gilad Shalit poster. And t-shirt. You see how insensitive that is?
Th bottom line is I cant even point out that israel has child prisoners without being accused of antisemitism by the 'Israel can do no wrong brigade'. It's almost as if you're trying to discourage people from speaking frankly about Israel. But I'm sure that's not your aim..

reine.de.tout Sun, Jun 26, 2011 6:37:41am

re: #51 lobengula

I had written . . .

and I have. I have cited save the children, B'Tselem and Israeli prison services figures. As for describing the time magazine article as hamasesque, well of course you thought that. It was critical of Israel, which is synonymous with antisemitism, right?

I think someone here has the Gilad Shalit poster. And t-shirt. You see how insensitive that is?
Th bottom line is I cant even point out that israel has child prisoners without being accused of antisemitism by the 'Israel can do no wrong brigade'. It's almost as if you're trying to discourage people from speaking frankly about Israel. But I'm sure that's not your aim..

You can point out whatever you want. You seem to take offense, however, that others 1) have a different opinion, and 2) point out their own information to you. You can expect to be challenged, but you'd prefer, it seems, to make your proclamations and have everyone ooohing and aaahing at your brilliance.

You made claims and cited sources, but provided direct links to reports that do NOT stand up to scrutiny as "ample evidence", nor do they support your statements. If you make a claim, it needs to be backed up with a direct link to the information you've used to come to your conclusion.

I have no clue if you are anti-semitic or not. I do think you are badly informed, and unwilling to look at and consider the ample evidence of the other side, and yes, the links provided to you by researchok and marjoriemoon provide much more ample evidence of their statements than your links did for your statements.

You want to expound and not be challenged? This is not the place to be.

researchok Sun, Jun 26, 2011 7:46:58am

re: #51 lobengula

I had written . . .

and I have. I have cited save the children, B'Tselem and Israeli prison services figures. As for describing the time magazine article as hamasesque, well of course you thought that. It was critical of Israel, which is synonymous with antisemitism, right?

I think someone here has the Gilad Shalit poster. And t-shirt. You see how insensitive that is?
Th bottom line is I cant even point out that israel has child prisoners without being accused of antisemitism by the 'Israel can do no wrong brigade'. It's almost as if you're trying to discourage people from speaking frankly about Israel. But I'm sure that's not your aim..

re: #51 lobengula

I had written . . .

and I have. I have cited save the children, B'Tselem and Israeli prison services figures. As for describing the time magazine article as hamasesque, well of course you thought that. It was critical of Israel, which is synonymous with antisemitism, right?

I think someone here has the Gilad Shalit poster. And t-shirt. You see how insensitive that is?
Th bottom line is I cant even point out that israel has child prisoners without being accused of antisemitism by the 'Israel can do no wrong brigade'. It's almost as if you're trying to discourage people from speaking frankly about Israel. But I'm sure that's not your aim..

B'Tselem has been discredited time and time again and your story about the 7 year old is far less credible than you would have us believe.

But that's OK.

As noted, who and what you are becomes clearer by the moment.

Know what I mean? Sure you do.

By the way, you have heard 'pivot and attack' has ben pretty much abandoned, right? Seems like the credibility factor goes down when applied.

Speaking frankly, of course.

researchok Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:28:43am

By the way, Iam not criticizing you because you are critical of Israel.

I am criticizing you and referring to you as a bigot because of your aligning yourself with Hamas, et al, clear and unambiguous racists. In failing to note the vast majority of the regions problems are directly tied to racism, bigotry and hate, you have made very clear what it is you believe.

You have also failed to put Israel into context- that is, you deliberately find a moral equivalence between Israel and her neighbors. That of course is laughable. Israel is a modern democratic first world state that does the best it can to defend the rights of all her citizens while the Palestinians are demonstrably and violently misogynistic, homophobic and religiously intolerant- all matters you seem to care little about, if at all.

Now, you said

No, reading through all your posts, you have accused a fair few people of antisemitism. It's your knee-jerk reaction when confronted by unpleasant facts about israel.

I will ask you again- to which posts are you referring? When have I referred to all critics of Israel as antisemitic? Who are these 'fair number of people'?

Further, I will repeat my other questions to you.

Do you question Israel's right to exist? Do you support a two state solution?

Lobengula Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:43:14am

re: #52 reine.de.tout

You can point out whatever you want. You seem to take offense, however, that others 1) have a different opinion, and 2) point out their own information to you.

Do I? I relish a good argument but have as yet only been met with accusations of antisemitism when pointing out that the case of gilad shalit is no more tragic than that of the hundreds of palestinians children languishing in israeli prisons for throwing stones. When you say "oh yes but stone throwers should be punished," I pointed out that settler children throw stones at palestinian (and therefore subhuman) civilians with impunity.

I have no clue if you are anti-semitic or not

i have no clue if you are a child molester or not.

You made claims and cited sources, but provided direct links to reports that do NOT stand up to scrutiny as "ample evidence"

any reasonable person would accept Israeli Prisons Services statistics report as an appropriate source.

B'Tselem has been discredited time and time again and your story about the 7 year old is far less credible than you would have us believe.

I'm sure a 7 year old detained by police for four hours and beaten is the norm in Israel but you have to appreciate that in the civilised west, such a response for such a petty 'crime' would be inconceivable.

As noted, who and what you are becomes clearer by the moment.

I am south african of jewish extract who has become disillusioned with Israeli policies. If that is tantamount to antisemitism in your opinion, so be it, even though you cannot cite a single instance of my allegedly antisemitic rhetoric. But if you really want to address racial hatred, i suggest you self reflect; your seething hatred of the palestinians has left you foaming at the mouth and rendered you incoherent in your replies. If all you have to offer in return for my very genuine observations are snide, vague comments, then it's time to realise you have nothing meaningful to say. I'm done with this thread.

researchok Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:54:31am

re: #55 Lobengula

I am south african of jewish extract who has become disillusioned with Israeli policies. If that is tantamount to antisemitism in your opinion, so be it, even though you cannot cite a single instance of my allegedly antisemitic rhetoric.

What utter silliness! Your bigotry is evident in what you don't say and your refusal to put the conflict into context. In not doing that, your bias becomes quite clear.

Israel and the Palestinians are not moral equals. By refusing to even acknowledge or address the Palestinian leadership bigotry, racism and hate, your agenda becomes quite clear. You believe that Israel ought to treat as equals those who embrace that kind of agenda. None of that bothers you in the least. If it did, you would have lonbg ago addressed that.

Further, you are deliberately misrepresenting what has been said here. The issue has never been the Palestinians per se, but rather decades of broken and dysfunctional leadership that have left the Palestinians utterly broken as functional society. They and not Israel have been the greatest victims of dysfunctional and broken Palestinian leadership.

Rather than support and empower the average Palestinian, you insist on supporting the very people who are guilty of inflicting that brokenness on the very people you pretend to care about.

But then again, it's never really been about the Palestinians. It's been about those other people.

Let's try this again:

Now, you said

No, reading through all your posts, you have accused a fair few people of antisemitism. It's your knee-jerk reaction when confronted by unpleasant facts about israel.

I will ask you again- to which posts are you referring? When have I referred to all critics of Israel as antisemitic? Who are these 'fair number of people'?

Further, I will repeat my other questions to you.

Do you question Israel's right to exist? Do you support a two state solution?

Vicious Babushka Sun, Jun 26, 2011 8:57:23am

If Israel really is holding hundreds of little children in prison for nothing but tossing some pebbles, why hasn't Hamas demanded the release of all the innocent, helpless children in exchange for Shalit? Why is Hamas holding out for only their top terror murderers?

Could it be that Hamas doesn't really give a shit about the little children, or because they know it's bogus?

What, me worry? Sun, Jun 26, 2011 10:32:51am

re: #57 Alouette

If Israel really is holding hundreds of little children in prison for nothing but tossing some pebbles, why hasn't Hamas demanded the release of all the innocent, helpless children in exchange for Shalit? Why is Hamas holding out for only their top terror murderers?

Could it be that Hamas doesn't really give a shit about the little children, or because they know it's bogus?

Oooo you go girl.

Palestinian children are cannon fodder for their military. That's fact. So he needs to get off the "save the kids" BS in trying to find sympathy for the Arab cause. They don't give a rat's ass about their kids or they wouldn't have spent years strapping bombs to them. That's not even addressing the anti-Semitic brainwashing that starts when they're tiny tots.

On the other hand there are numerous examples of how the Israelis care for Palestinian sick and dying children other than the examples I gave which he ignored.

And that ridiculous "proof" in his video in #23 which is totally unclear who the kids are throwing rocks at. A car with a red flag? Looks like a building at another point. At the end of the video, what looks like the IDF is trying to stop them, but they could also be the Hebron police who aren't always trusted by the Jews there. I can't tell. At the end of the argument, where the soldiers/police are trying to get the B'Tselem cameraman to put his camera down, it's a Jewish civilian who he finally listens to. There is no context in that video or backstory to have any idea what's going on.

Like I say, Hebron is extremely complex when it comes to the conflict there. Arabs and Jews are far more hostile to each other than in other places in Israel.

Buck Sun, Jun 26, 2011 11:40:43am

Seriously, compare a uniformed soldier kidnapped and held without any of the protection of justice or human rights conventions with people who committed crimes, were caught by authorities, given their day in court and legal representation.

Do it one more time, and try and tell me again that you are not an antisemitism....

Buck Sun, Jun 26, 2011 11:45:38am

Seriously, compare a uniformed soldier kidnapped, held and not allowed to see his family, or hear from them, with people who committed crimes, were caught by authorities, and allowed to see and be seen by their families.

Do it one more time, and try and tell me again that you are not an antisemitite...

Buck Sun, Jun 26, 2011 11:51:12am

Seriously, compare a uniformed soldier kidnapped and held without any of the protection of rule of law, no judge, no knowledge of when his incarceration will end.... with people who committed crimes, were caught by authorities, told the charges against them, allowed to defend themselves, and if they were convicted, given a sentence with an ending.

Do it one more time, and try and tell me again that you are not an antisemite...

reine.de.tout Sun, Jun 26, 2011 12:40:19pm

re: #55 Lobengula

Do I? I relish a good argument but have as yet only been met with accusations of antisemitism when pointing out that the case of gilad shalit is no more tragic than that of the hundreds of palestinians children languishing in israeli prisons for throwing stones. When you say "oh yes but stone throwers should be punished," I pointed out that settler children throw stones at palestinian (and therefore subhuman) civilians with impunity.

What I said was that stone throwing was no playful game; and can be deadly. Your "proof" of settler children was a link to a story about an adult using a gun to shoot, who was charged but not prosecuted. I'm not sure why you are unable to keep things straight, but you do yourself no favors. AND, no one in this thread BUT YOU has used terms such as "subhuman" when referring to Palestinians.

i have no clue if you are a child molester or not.

No of course you don't. But I wasn't complaining about anybody calling me a child molester, was I? Irrelevant and just - shit throwing.

any reasonable person would accept Israeli Prisons Services statistics report as an appropriate source.
I'm sure a 7 year old detained by police for four hours and beaten is the norm in Israel but you have to appreciate that in the civilised west, such a response for such a petty 'crime' would be inconceivable.

You linked to an article that used Israeli Prisons Services information, but the rest of the article was general and unsubstantiated statements. - no names, case studies, photos, nothing. Just - they have these kids and they are torturing them. That doesn't prove - well, anything one way or the other about those children being tortured, nor does it say what they were detained for.

I am south african of jewish extract who has become disillusioned with Israeli policies. If that is tantamount to antisemitism in your opinion, so be it, even though you cannot cite a single instance of my allegedly antisemitic rhetoric. But if you really want to address racial hatred, i suggest you self reflect; your seething hatred of the palestinians has left you foaming at the mouth and rendered you incoherent in your replies. If all you have to offer in return for my very genuine observations are snide, vague comments, then it's time to realise you have nothing meaningful to say. I'm done with this thread.

The only snide vague comments I've seen have come from you. Also, in your comment you quoted ME, with a couple of statements I made, and then threw in and responded to comments I never made (but I will admit I agree with). Why the falsification of who said what? If you're going to respond to something, respond directly to the person who said it, don't pick out somebody to respond to and then throw in all the comments made by anybody that you don't agree with. It's just very poor manners.

reine.de.tout Sun, Jun 26, 2011 12:41:46pm

re: #57 Alouette

If Israel really is holding hundreds of little children in prison for nothing but tossing some pebbles, why hasn't Hamas demanded the release of all the innocent, helpless children in exchange for Shalit? Why is Hamas holding out for only their top terror murderers?

Could it be that Hamas doesn't really give a shit about the little children, or because they know it's bogus?

Far as I'm concerned, pick one of those, either could be true.

Buck Sun, Jun 26, 2011 12:43:29pm

When you state that a seven year old was "detained, beaten and then freed" you are giving the benefit of the doubt to Hamas, and it's supporters. Even though you know their goal is advocating genocide of the jewish people, you take their word for what happened, over Israels.

Even though you know that in Israel any questioning or investigation of minors takes place in the presence of parents or guardians. You know that is the law in Israel. Anything else is illegal.

Again and again you give the benefit of doubt to Hamas, and it's supporters.

I give the benefit of doubt to Israel. To her Parliament, to her elected officials. To her defense forces and their elected civilian commander.

I don't give the benefit of doubt to antisemites, and I know antisemitism when I see it

Buck Sun, Jun 26, 2011 1:05:46pm

Now Lobengula, everyone can read your "antisemitic rhetoric" and your "racial hatred".

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