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1 Buck  Wed, Jul 6, 2011 7:19:11pm

How do I get those karma points back?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Now the Obama admin agrees with ME and disagrees with the lizards who defend "a mistake".

2 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Jul 6, 2011 7:37:40pm

re: #1 Buck

How do I get those karma points back?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Now the Obama admin agrees with ME and disagrees with the lizards who defend "a mistake".

Good luck getting those points back. I'll probably get minus points for this post but I cherish them.

3 Buck  Wed, Jul 6, 2011 7:42:25pm

re: #2 NJDhockeyfan

Good luck getting those points back. I'll probably get minus points for this post but I cherish them.

Yep, I think it is clear that I don't really care about Karma. I don't think it means what many think it means.

4 shutdown  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:05:06am

re: #3 Buck

re: #1 Buck

My first thought when I read the article on the mistaken inclusion (sometime yesterday, I think) was: A bunch of people owe Buck an apology and some updings....

I do think, though, that the announcement of the "mistaken" inclusion was a result of significant pressure on State and that the initial inclusion of Israel was not a mistake, at all. I still think that State was trying to find a way to acknowledge that there are a number of ways that terrorist elements can move out of the region using Israel as a point of departure. There just needs to be a more elegant way of handling the issue that does not lump a democratic ally in with rogue regimes.

5 shutdown  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 9:29:28am

re: #1 Buck

How do I get those karma points back?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Now the Obama admin agrees with ME and disagrees with the lizards who defend "a mistake".

I went to the original page you posted and realized that RememberTony_C and I actually updinged you on the original post. I provided a rationale for doing so, as well.

Anyway, I don't think you seem terribly fussed by life in the Karma basement :)

6 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 10:00:43am

re: #1 Buck

Really? Given that I said that I had no problem saying that the inclusion of Israel on that list was dumb, and what I had a problem with was the stupid, false claims you made about what it meant, you don't deserve any sort of apology.

Why misrepresent what was said to you?

7 RadicalModerate  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 10:42:11am

re: #1 Buck

I'm guessing that a majority of those downdings you got (as was mentioned in the discussion of the story) is the fact that you cited CNS as the primary "news" source - who have ever-so-slightly more integrity than WorldNetDaily.

8 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:02:15am

It would be nice if you folks crowing about how "right" you were would recognize that you were outrageously outraged over a mistake, that has now been corrected.

9 RanchTooth  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:12:06am

re: #8 Charles

It would be nice if you folks crowing about how "right" you were would recognize that you were outrageously outraged over a mistake, that has now been corrected.

I stand by my comments. I do not ever once state that I think that Israel is a terrorist state or supports or abets terrorism. My major point in that article is that where Israel was listed was for this purpose of detained foreigners that were already in custody of Immigrations, Customs, and Inforcement (ICE):

In addition to the Terrorist Watchlist screening, ICE [Immigration Customs and Enforcement] uses a Third Agency Check (TAC) to screen aliens from specially designated countries (SDCs) that have shown a tendency to promote, produce, or protect terrorist organizations or their members (see appendix D for a list of SDCs).The purpose of the additional screening is to determine whether other agencies have an interest in the alien. ICE’s policy requires officers to conduct TAC screenings only for aliens from SDCs if the aliens are in ICE custody. As a result, ICE does not perform a TAC for the majority of its population of aliens, which includes those incarcerated or released under supervision. Figure 2 shows the portion of aliens from SDCs who ICE held in detention.

In my opinion... why ALL foreign operatives who aren't detained by immigration are subjected to this sort of screening is beyond me. Maybe it's a budget issue. My beef isn't with Israel. I'm Jewish, but I recognize the turmoil in Israel that may lend itself to land on a list of countries that may produce terrorists.

Let the downdings ensue.

10 RanchTooth  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:17:23am

re: #9 RanchTooth

In my opinion... why ALL foreign operatives who aren't detained by immigration are subjected to this sort of screening is beyond me. Maybe it's a budget issue.

In my opinion... why aren't ALL foreign nationals who are detained by ICE subjected to a third agency check. This is, and was my point all along. Something that Buck never really got to, and made some wild reference to the Arizona laws of stopping someone who looked as though they may be undocumented. The difference here, is that these people are already detained. Guilt has already been established.

11 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:40:16am

re: #6 Obdicut

Really? Given that I said that I had no problem saying that the inclusion of Israel on that list was dumb, and what I had a problem with was the stupid, false claims you made about what it meant, you don't deserve any sort of apology.

Why misrepresent what was said to you?

You know what? Anyone can go and read the thread and read for themselves what you said.

You concluded that there was good reason to include Israel on the list when you said:

Yeah, it's kind of obvious to anyone not trying to whip up partisan outrage.

in response to:

International travelers from outside Israel, the West Bank and Gaza may travel to these areas and transit directly to the United States. This might account for Israel's inclusion in the report as disclosed.

Then to justify Israel being on this list, you gave an example of what you said was "Israel producing a terrorist."

With that said, did you ALSO change the subject away from what the report said to what you thought I was saying? Did you nit pick at a word you felt was misplaced over and over again in order to deflect from the actual topic?

Yes you did. You always do.

12 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:44:13am

re: #8 Charles

It would be nice if you folks crowing about how "right" you were would recognize that you were outrageously outraged over a mistake, that has now been corrected.

Yes, and pointing out mistakes is what is often done by people on blogs. It wasn't a case of "outrageously outraged". That is reserved for being outraged over something that isn't real. The mistake on the part of the DHS was real. Pointing it out was correct. Defending it, and being outraged at the people who pointed it out was the mistake.

Not that you (Charles) did that. So that remark about being outraged and making a mistake was not directed at you (Charles).

13 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:50:12am

re: #9 RanchTooth

I stand by my comments. I do not ever once state that I think that Israel is a terrorist state or supports or abets terrorism. My major point in that article is that where Israel was listed was for this purpose of detained foreigners that were already in custody of Immigrations, Customs, and Inforcement (ICE):

In my opinion... why ALL foreign operatives who aren't detained by immigration are subjected to this sort of screening is beyond me. Maybe it's a budget issue. My beef isn't with Israel. I'm Jewish, but I recognize the turmoil in Israel that may lend itself to land on a list of countries that may produce terrorists.

Let the downdings ensue.

That was the opinion I saw expressed in the previous thread -- that it was not irrational to screen visitors from Israel.

Buck, of course, is trying to portray it as if people had been calling Israel a terrorist state.

14 Charles Johnson  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:51:03am

re: #11 Buck

You know what? Anyone can go and read the thread and read for themselves what you said.

And I recommend that they do, because again, you're distorting the record.

15 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 11:57:55am

re: #10 RanchTooth

In my opinion... why aren't ALL foreign nationals who are detained by ICE subjected to a third agency check.

I tried to explain that multiple times, however let me try a different tack.

There is a list. It is a list of specially designated countries (SDCs). There would be no list of "all countries", that would be silly. Now disposing of this list of SDC's might have been you point all along, and you might have felt that any list would be wrong. Like you say now ALL foreign nationals should be checked for third agency interest.

However the point of the post was that there is a list. The list is specifically "countries that have shown a tendency to promote, produce, or protect terrorist organizations or their members".

Now you can change the subject away from what the list actually said, or try and discuss a policy that does not exist (all foreign nationals should be checked for third agency interest). If it ever does exist, I will debate that with you happily.

In the meanwhile, the question is do you think the country of Israel has "shown a tendency to promote, produce, or protect terrorist organizations or their members"? Does it belong on a list of countries that have?

The Obama administration has said it does not, and that putting it on that list was a mistake.

I for one would love to see the data that caused the mistake. I would love to know where it came from and what it said. However that request would have to come from a citizen in the form of a FOIA request.

16 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 12:07:57pm

re: #7 RadicalModerate

I'm guessing that a majority of those downdings you got (as was mentioned in the discussion of the story) is the fact that you cited CNS as the primary "news" source - who have ever-so-slightly more integrity than WorldNetDaily.

I did linked directly to the actual DHS report, and quoted directly from the report, and even pointed to the appendix which held the list.

Just because CNS was the only news agency to report it was not my fault. So I don't think it was CNS. The comments made clear that many lizards felt putting Israel on that list was not a mistake. Some still do. John Morton says it was a mistake, and that the mistake was caused by "inaccurate information provided to the OIG during the course of its audit".

17 RanchTooth  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 12:24:06pm

re: #15 Buck

In the meanwhile, the question is do you think the country of Israel has "shown a tendency to promote, produce, or protect terrorist organizations or their members"? Does it belong on a list of countries that have?

I'm going to make a very clear distinction here. I believe that Israel, the country itself and its establishment as a state, may breed terrorism. The State of Israel, that is, the governing body of Israel and the Israeli government, absolutely does not promote, produce or protect terrorism in any way, shape, or form. Which is necessary for ending up on the list, I am not sure, I'd have to re-read the report, but I'm sure it's the latter of the two. This would disqualify Israel from being on the list, admittedly, if you adhere to the ideology that you shouldn't screen foreign detainees to other government agencies, which is simply ludicrous.

Charles updinged me... that's like a kiss from an angel. =)

18 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 12:27:05pm

re: #14 Charles

Buck, of course, is trying to portray it as if people had been calling Israel a terrorist state.

And I recommend that they do, because again, you're distorting the record.


I plead innocent of both charges. I think I was very clear about what I was saying about what people were saying. I only pointed directly to the record, and never distorted even one word.

19 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 1:49:25pm

re: #1 Buck

How do I get those karma points back?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Now the Obama admin agrees with ME and disagrees with the lizards who defend "a mistake".

Hey, Buck. I know you don't care, but take a couple from me :) And no, this doesn't mean you were right in each and every pronouncement on that thread (which I only skimmed and didn't participate in).

20 Interesting Times  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:12:12pm

re: #19 Sergey Romanov

Hey, Buck. I know you don't care, but take a couple from me :) And no, this doesn't mean you were right in each and every pronouncement on that thread

When someone has an especially smarmy, condescending, passive-aggressive and spiteful way of expressing themselves, it tends to detract from the corn kernels of truth that reside in their mountains of poop.

Or, put more succinctly by a friend of mine - "You can be 100% right but 100% wrong if you're a dick about it." :)

21 Buck  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 2:34:38pm

re: #20 publicityStunted

Really?


When someone has an especially smarmy, condescending, passive-aggressive and spiteful way of expressing themselves, it tends to detract from the corn kernels of truth that reside in their mountains of poop.

Do you think you could have said that in anymore of a smarmy, condescending, passive-aggressive and spiteful way?

In other words: "I know what you are but what am I?"

22 Obdicut  Thu, Jul 7, 2011 3:58:24pm

re: #11 Buck

You know what? Anyone can go and read the thread and read for themselves what you said.

Yes. They can see me calling out for your stupid and false assertion that Obama is making Israel and Hamas, and Israelis and Hamas members, equivalent. That was stupid of you to say.

In that thread they can also see me saying that I don't think having Israel on that list, as it stood, was good, just that it wasn't an OMG outrage.

For example, I say:

The thing is, I don't even disagree that this is a dumb policy, like a lot of our homeland security stuff is.

and

You take a nugget of reality-- that this is a stupid policy-- and turn it into Obama treating Israel the same as Hamas, which is a ludicrous, stupid, obvious, and pathetic lie.

That was a true statement on my part. I did find the policy dumb, and I did find your attempt to get outraged about it and read all kinds of dire shit into it stupid and pathetic.

And predictable.

I do encourage anyone to read that thread, and to verify that I am, in fact, representing my position correctly.

The policy was dumb, but not offensive. And it was not an attempt by Obama to say Israel and Hamas were equivalent.


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