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1 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 2:33:46pm

Can I ask about "love the sinner, not the sin"? We don't have this in Judaism. What is your interpretation of it?

The person is the one who commits the sin. There is no sin in this world until a person does something wrong. Since sin cannot exist independent of the sinner, I can't love or hate it. And if a person does something terrible to me or my family, say robs me, I am not going to love them nor love the robbing.

In Judaism, we don't have to forgive until someone ASKS to be forgiven. And they must do that so they can acknowledge that they have harmed us. If they ask, they must be forgiven. Technically, they can ask up to 3 times and if we refuse to forgive, we must forgive the third time. Basically if a person has humbled themselves to beg forgiveness, you have to humble yourself to accept.

If they're trying to say, love someone despite their flaws, then I can see that, yes. Although I love many people despite their flaws, but I don't consider most flaws "sins."

Anyway, it's not for me to judge someone else's decisions in life. It does make me a bit cranky that these very zealous Christians really adore the Hebrew Bible when it says stuff they can roll up into a stick and beat someone over the head with. Otherwise, they don't care much about it.

2 calochortus  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 4:23:38pm

I assume this guy is speaking only for himself about being broken...

re: #1 marjoriemoon

I'm not a religious person of any faith, but it has been my impression that the "love the sinner, hate the sin" folks tend to mean something along the lines of "Your immortal soul is precious and valuable, so in order to save it, you need to quit being who you are and do what I tell you."

Anyone with a better read on this can feel to correct me (but not by rolling up any portion of the Bible and beating me over the head with it.)

3 CuriousLurker  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 5:27:43pm

re: #1 marjoriemoon

If they're trying to say, love someone despite their flaws, then I can see that, yes. Although I love many people despite their flaws, but I don't consider most flaws "sins."

You pretty much captured the "love the sinner, hate the sin"1 concept above. IMO, there are potential pitfalls though—namely, becoming overly judgmental (always looking for sins in others), and becoming overly smug & self-satisfied with one's own state (forgetting to look in he mirror for sins).

The person is the one who commits the sin. There is no sin in this world until a person does something wrong. Since sin cannot exist independent of the sinner, I can't love or hate it.

Yes, that presents another dilemma, doesn't it? If the sinner & his sin cannot be separated, then what about punishment in the case of crimes? One cannot punish murder independently of the murderer. It also leaves the ghoulish specter, at lest in my mind, of a Torquemada-like inquisitor listening to the screams of tortured "sinners" while his sadism masquerades as religious love & concern for their immortal souls.

1. According to Snopes, it's from St. Augustine.

4 What, me worry?  Fri, Jul 8, 2011 7:02:56pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

Yes, that presents another dilemma, doesn't it? If the sinner & his sin cannot be separated, then what about punishment in the case of crimes? One cannot punish murder independently of the murderer. It also leaves the ghoulish specter, at lest in my mind, of a Torquemada-like inquisitor listening to the screams of tortured "sinners" while his sadism masquerades as religious love & concern for their immortal souls

Well since the actions of a person determine sin, that person is responsible for it. Judaism recognizes sin against each other and sin against God as separate things. Sins against God would be like desecrating the Sabbath or idol worship. We ask for forgiveness for these sins on Yom Kippur (our day of atonement). Sins we commit against each other, you must ask forgiveness of the person and make amends, if possible. For a crime, pay a fine or punishment/incarceration etc. In any case, a person takes responsibility for their own sins because they made the choice to commit them.

The AFA's panties are in a wad because the world is passing them by and they don't like it. More churches, pastors, are becoming accepting of LGBT parishioners. Read the story linked to in the above article.


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