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1 windsagio  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 7:58:27am

They think this flotilla/flytilla is a winning tactic, and I really think they're correct (heh, wanted to specifically avoid using the word 'right' there :p)

It gets a lot of attention and forces an Israeli response which gets MORE attention. Good for the PR war.

(Altho the border charging thing seemed clever to me too, but I think that either fell through because of the purported Assad connection or the much greater chance of getting your ass shot)

2 Alexzander  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 8:34:50am

While it is not absolute 'international law', the states in Article 13:

Article 13.

(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.


and:


Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

There must be a lot of legal/academic discussion of Article 13 and 15 because its clearly not how international boundaries or citizenship work.

3 windsagio  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:08:41am

re: #2 Alexzander

I think part of the problem is that 'right of return' is a very charged, specific term in this context.

4 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:12:05am

It's time for the Palestinians to face one axiom: the Right of Return will never be practically implemented. All Palestinians who have lost their property to Israel and their ancestors should be properly remunerated (including the incurred losses). And that should be the end of the RoR story. (This does not concern the settlements.)

5 Alexzander  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:12:07am

re: #3 windsagio

I just googled it and I was surprised to find a whole Wiki article about the expression:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

6 windsagio  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:23:39am

re: #5 Alexzander

Typically, the group which suffered from such an expulsion demands to have a Right of Return and get back to where they lived before and restore the previous situation, while the other side to the conflict objects to granting any such right and in effect seeks to retain the new status quo, often asserting that the group seeking to return is hostile and would threaten its security. Such conflicting demands may exacerbate ethnic and national conflicts and make their resolution more difficult.

This is the issue in Israel/Palestine in a nutshell. (exacerbated by the "Law of Return")

Also, it turns out *I* fall under the Israeli version of the law, which is funny :D

Good article for sure, the other interesting thing is that the UN has a bunch of things supporting the right in theory, but nothing with the actual force of law. Just a bunch of "This is the right thing to do, this is what you should do."

~~~

Sergey, you're probably right, but it's too bad.

7 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:29:03am

re: #4 Sergey Romanov

It's time for the Palestinians to face one axiom: the Right of Return will never be practically implemented. All Palestinians who have lost their property to Israel and their ancestors should be properly remunerated (including the incurred losses). And that should be the end of the RoR story. (This does not concern the settlements.)

The Arab countries where the refugees now live as second-class non-citizens can remunerate them from all the property and possessions that they looted from the Jews who were forcibly expelled.

8 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:31:25am

re: #7 Alouette

No, Arab countries have nothing to do with it. It's strictly between the Palestinians and Israel. Israel has the Palestinian property, it should pay the compensation. The matter of the property of the expelled Jews is strictly between the Arab countries who did the expelling and their victims.

9 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:43:19am

re: #8 Sergey Romanov
Politically however, Israel could tie compensations to the Palestinians with demand for the compensations to the expelled Jews.

10 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:46:38am

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

Politically however, Israel could tie compensations to the Palestinians with demand for the compensations to the expelled Jews.

That is a good point. However how likely is it that anybody will see any kind of compensation? Switzerland still holds billions that it looted from Holocaust victims and their families.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:52:14am

re: #10 Alouette

Switzerland is in a position where there is no leverage. Israel has a lever in the form of the Palestinian compensations. We know that the Arab states use the Palestinian misfortune as a constant anti-Israel motif, which means that they declare that they actually care about Palestinians.

If they care, they should agree to the mutual compensation "swap" after an objective count of the property. If they disagree, they will show they don't care about the Palestinians. If they agree, Israel's monetary losses will be negligible, and for all we know, depending on the amount of the expellee property, Israel may even stay in surplus ;)

12 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:55:48am

There is no precedent in history for the winners of a war paying reparations to the losers. Usually, it's the losers who are forced to pay.

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:58:19am

re: #12 Alouette

That may be so, but the people who didn't declare any war but simply left their homes are entitled to their property.

14 Obdicut  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:58:29am

re: #12 Alouette

There is no precedent in history for the winners of a war paying reparations to the losers. .

This isn't about nations, though, but about individuals. If this were to actually go down as Sergey says, then, indeed, I think that the financial end result would be moot for Israel, money would come from the Arab states, and Palestinian exiles would get an influx of cash-- in return for giving up right to return-- that would make them actually viable citizens in the Arab countries.

Not that the Arab countries would ever, ever go for this, unless the Arab Spring blooms a lot greener than I think it will.

15 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:06:20am

re: #14 Obdicut

This isn't about nations, though, but about individuals. If this were to actually go down as Sergey says, then, indeed, I think that the financial end result would be moot for Israel, money would come from the Arab states, and Palestinian exiles would get an influx of cash-- in return for giving up right to return-- that would make them actually viable citizens in the Arab countries.

Not that the Arab countries would ever, ever go for this, unless the Arab Spring blooms a lot greener than I think it will.

If Fatah (never mind Hamas) even hinted that they might negotiate for a compensation settlement instead of insisting on an actual physical "Right of Return," that would be a major breakthrough in the peace process, or course they might then be overthrown.

16 Obdicut  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:14:08am

re: #15 Alouette

Yes. Compensation says "Let's be reasonable and move forwards". Right of return says "We're going to ignore that this can't happen without the destruction of Israel."

17 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:23:26am

re: #16 Obdicut

Yes. Compensation says "Let's be reasonable and move forwards". Right of return says "We're going to ignore that this can't happen without the destruction of Israel."

They don't ignore that. On the contrary, that's what they want to happen.

18 windsagio  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:26:00am

re: #12 Alouette

I should note, its not reparations per se, but the US hasn't exactly been stingy in giving Iraq money.

19 Obdicut  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:26:47am

re: #18 windsagio

I should note, its not reparations per se, but the US hasn't exactly been stingy in giving Iraq money.

There's a whole book (The Mouse That Roared, great book) about the US giving money to the places they conquer. The Marshall Plan is a fonder memory of that than Iraq, certainly.

20 windsagio  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:29:50am

re: #19 Obdicut

I actually didn't mention Marshall because I was afraid somebody would come back with 'technically it's a loan' >>

And yes, "The mouse that Roared" is a most excellent book. Probably my favorite cold war satire.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 12:14:51pm

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

Politically however, Israel could tie compensations to the Palestinians with demand for the compensations to the expelled Jews.

Thereby ensuring an endless stalemate.

22 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 12:21:23pm

Part of the problem is that there's a ongoing cycle of land purchase, development, loss and destruction that has affected all ethnic groups in the region. Land that Jews bought, settled and lived on, for decades or centuries, was lost in 48/49, the people fled, were killed, or were moved, and the villages destroyed. In 67, people returned to those sites and rebuilt, meanwhile destroying Arab villages as people fled, were killed, or were moved. If the PA manages to gain control of all the area they want in the West Bank, we'll do it again.

To hell with the cycle of violence, what we have here an endless cycle of 'who lived where when'.

A perfectly equitable solution is probably out of the question. One thing that's for sure, however, is that somehow, we need to be able to call it quits--and the Right of Return is not going to happen.

If we can get everyone A vine and fig tree, that's going to have to be good enough, because there is simply no way we can make sure everyone gets his or her ORIGINAL vine and fig tree after so many decades of war and land scuffle.

23 Flavia  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 6:55:50pm

re: #2 Alexzander

While it is not absolute 'international law', the states in Article 13:
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.
(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

That last bit is the key. There is no country to "return" to - unless they're going to let them go back to Turkey, which was the only "country" that could be said to have existed before modern day Israel (Or Jordan, which has the bulk of the land where they were living when they left- it depends on how you look at it - tho', either way, they are still wrong.).

This is all just another brick in the wall of world-wide delusion that there was ever a country called "Palestine" - that the nasty Jews stole from them, driving all of them out & stealing their houses (rolling eyes).

and:

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

There must be a lot of legal/academic discussion of Article 13 and 15 because its clearly not how international boundaries or citizenship work.

See above, re: no such nationality as "Palestinian". They made it up in the 60's.

24 Flavia  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 6:58:26pm

re: #4 Sergey Romanov

It's time for the Palestinians to face one axiom: the Right of Return will never be practically implemented. All Palestinians who have lost their property to Israel and their ancestors should be properly remunerated (including the incurred losses). And that should be the end of the RoR story. (This does not concern the settlements.)

Everyone who can actually prove that s/he actually had a house that was actually taken (or even just left behind) has been compensated: Israel set up a Bureau for this in 1951.

The "Right of Return" is a joke because they only want to "return" to an imaginary country.


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