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1 Obdicut  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 9:54:57am

Absolutely.

This is the main reason why real healtcare reform-- like a single payer system-- would revitalize American small businesses.

This is the reason why programs that help out the low-level workers also help out the small businessmen.

2 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:17:02am

This argument is no less than heresy to Republican religion.

3 shutdown  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:18:50am

re: #2 Naso Tang

This argument is no less than heresy to Republican religion.

The truth hurts. That is no less true for science than it is for economics.

4 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:32:34am

However, I'm not sure about the effect of health care and even transportation on direct job creation. Most small businesses do not offer health care and if they do the real cost comes out of what they pay their employees. Transportation costs are passed to the consumer and will only affect employment to the extent that it siphons total wealth to the oil industries.

The net result is less money for everything except health care and fuel, which will affect available money for other forms of business and presumably job creation, but to claim that reducing taxes on profits, after expenses, can make up this difference is just plain stupid.

5 shutdown  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 10:45:39am

re: #4 Naso Tang

As Obdi says above, where a small business is not providing health insurance, the individual must. I the individual is at that point an employer or an employee I think is irrelevant from the p.o.v. of costs to the small business, as one way or another, the revenue generated by the business must be sufficient to cover these costs. If the employer opts out of providing insurance, employees must source it elsewhere and pay for it from wages. Saving to the employer are not exactly equivalent to the savings in not providing healthcare. The whole concept of employer-subsidized healthcare came about when it became clear that a healthy work force is a more productive work force. I know that there are complexities I am leaving out, but I think the argument I present is pretty well self contained. Reducing taxes does not increase pre-tax revenue. Only increases in pre-tax revenue are indicative of the ability and willingness of an employer to create new jobs.

6 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 1:39:24pm

re: #5 imp_62

One thing left out is that the employer can deduct health premiums as a pre tax expense, the individual cannot. Therefore this is a tax reduction.

Another is the claim that negotiated "group" rates can be lower than individual rates for cost reasons. I consider this another myth perpetuated by the insurance industry to screw individuals, since the individual risks are the same whether someone is in a group or not and in an age of computers the overhead in processing a claim from an individual in a group is the same as doing so for a private individual.

Of course tax reduction does not directly affect revenue; it is supposed to allow greater profits to be reinvested in people or capital so as to create more revenue, and jobs.

However it seems to me that capital is invested when greater business potential is seen. Capital investment does not guarantee greater revenue by itself and, if the potential exists, capital is available from investment sources. Taxes are just one item in the P&L which will be passed into the pricing calculations.

I fail to see how a business will fail, or fail to grow, on the basis of a difference between 35% and 25% tax rate (as has been suggested even though very few will pay the top rate on profits). Profitability after all expenses in many cases will be in the 10% range, maybe 20%, of revenue. So the difference in tax with the lower rate will be on the order of 1% of revenue.

If this kills a business or prevents it from growing, it is primed to fail anyway.

If I screwed up somewhere, please say so.

7 shutdown  Tue, Jul 12, 2011 2:13:14pm

re: #6 Naso Tang

The intricacies of insurance maths are a separate issue altogether, and one on which I am absolutely unqualified to opine - which means I will probably do exactly that at a later date. As to the balance of your comment, I note that my point was specific to the myth of job creation somehow being linked to lower corporate tax rates, not the ability of businesses to attract new capital. I think we agree on the general issue, as far as I can tell from the last full paragraph of your comment.

A pleasure discussing with you, as always!


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