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1 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:35:06am

Dunno how to say this without sounding apologetic, but the Baltic states really got screwed hard. Former Russian protectorates, they became occupied and annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, then occupied by Nazi Germany in 1941, then re-occupied and re-annexation by the Soviet Union again in 1944/45. Lots of collaboration and resistance fighting going on in between, a lot of it being pro-German due to the high percentage of ethnic Germans in the population. These kind of pro-Nazi gatherings would be unthinkable without the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union a few decades ago, and they started up ever since. It's like a continuation of the Cold War, in some ways, especially with Russia chiming in and the EU and the USA staying relatively silent about it.

2 jvic  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:40:07pm

NJDHockeyfan, I updinged your post for its constructive intent, but J*sus Chr*st on a skateboard:

1. The Voice of Russia that you link is the government-funded successor to Radio Moscow; their site omits the foregoing information. Given Russia's record in Eastern Europe, a statement from Russian government media should be flagged as such.

NB: I'm not saying the article should be ignored because it was funded by the Russian government; on the contrary, we shouldn't ignore what they say, especially regarding their sphere of influence. I'm saying the article should be identified as coming from the Russian government.

2. The concluding sentences in the article you link are:

Today, 66 years after the defeat of Nazism in the Second World War, the world should obviously get united in an antifascist coalition to fight Nazism. It is evident that the glorification of Nazism results in tragedies and more extremist, nationalist and xenophobic crimes. Fighting Nazism effectively clearly calls for preemptive action.

Are Putin's Great Peace-Loving Russian People insinuating a hint regarding "fraternal assistance" to the Baltic republics and elsewhere?

3. A related post recently appeared at LGF. My comment thereon is here.

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 2:43:49pm

re: #2 jvic

Agreed on all counts. There are big problems with this kind of thing in the Baltic states AND Putin milks it for what it's worth.

4 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 3:17:32pm

re: #2 jvic

their site omits the foregoing information.

Yeah, that article posted by NJD also didn't say anything about the context of Soviet occupation. Which is why I felt compelled to mention it (even though feeling it might come off as apologetic).

5 Dark_Falcon  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:39:57pm

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

Agreed on all counts. There are big problems with this kind of thing in the Baltic states AND Putin milks it for what it's worth.

And that milking is a winner both at home and aboard, for who can with justice say that Russia did not suffer horribly from the 3rd Reich's depredations, or that she did not battle valiantly to end the Nazi scourge. But 000G's point is well taken: The Baltic States were first horribly treated by the Soviet Union, and it is understandable that some men in those nations should think "The enemy of my enemy is my ally."

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 4:42:18pm

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

And that milking is a winner both at home and aboard, for who can with justice say that Russia did not suffer horribly from the 3rd Reich's depredations, or that she did not battle valiantly to end the Nazi scourge. But 000G's point is well taken: The Baltic States were first horribly treated by the Soviet Union, and it is understandable that some men in those nations should think "The enemy of my enemy is my ally."

They were justified in that in the first days of the German occupation. Not now.

Also don't forget that they killed lots of their Jews on their own or with incitement from the Germans in the first days.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 5:02:07pm

re: #6 Sergey Romanov

They were justified in that in the first days of the German occupation. Not now.

I am thinking that some of this may also have to do with anticommunist resentment coupled with tough economic times; such nationalism usually lends itself more easily to nazism. Also Soviet occupation/annexation went on for a lot longer than German, so perhaps it overshadowed the popular memory a bit.

But yes, no matter how you spin it: It's ugly.

8 Warberg  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 7:25:48pm

I think it's a cheap shot to call out a veterans rally as evidence of emerging neo-nazism. That could be, but I suppose all of us here need more background than provided in the article on whether that is the case?

9 ProMayaLiberal  Sat, Jul 30, 2011 9:41:14pm

re: #8 Warberg

Agreed.

re: #5 Dark_Falcon

I'm assuming you remember Finland. Only difference was, they were never truly occupied by either side. So they remained independent, if truncated.

10 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:51:31am

re: #9 ProLifeLiberal

I'm assuming you remember Finland. Only difference was, they were never truly occupied by either side. So they remained independent, if truncated.

Is "truncated" supposed to refer to Karelia?

11 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 2:52:40am

Supposedly photos from an Estonian Waffen-SS rally last year:

[Link: www.militaryphotos.net...]

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:01:58am

re: #8 Warberg

I think it's a cheap shot to call out a veterans rally as evidence of emerging neo-nazism. That could be, but I suppose all of us here need more background than provided in the article on whether that is the case?

Don't think we're going on one article.

Here's the site for more:

[Link: www.holocaustinthebaltics.com...]

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 3:13:55am

re: #7 000G

I am thinking that some of this may also have to do with anticommunist resentment coupled with tough economic times; such nationalism usually lends itself more easily to nazism. Also Soviet occupation/annexation went on for a lot longer than German, so perhaps it overshadowed the popular memory a bit.

But yes, no matter how you spin it: It's ugly.

All is true, this is a backlash. And that being backlash doesn't excuse it. They're rewriting history to say that USSR did "genocide" in the Baltics, although it did no such thing by the Convention definition (there was no provable intent to destroy in whole in part the Baltic ethnic groups). Then they use those "genocide" claims to offset the very real genocide perpetrated by the Nazis.

14 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:04:52am

re: #13 Sergey Romanov

All is true, this is a backlash. And that being backlash doesn't excuse it. They're rewriting history to say that USSR did "genocide" in the Baltics, although it did no such thing by the Convention definition (there was no provable intent to destroy in whole in part the Baltic ethnic groups). Then they use those "genocide" claims to offset the very real genocide perpetrated by the Nazis.

You're right, it doesn't excuse it; that's what I meant to convey with my "no matter how you spin it: It's ugly".

I don't know about genocide claims against the USSR from the Baltics. I do know that economic factors were excluded from the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide in order to get the USSR on board.

15 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:09:15am

re: #14 000G

Economic factors? I don't know about that. Social groups were excluded, AFAIR.

16 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:10:32am

re: #15 Sergey Romanov

Economic factors? I don't know about that. Social groups were excluded, AFAIR.

Or was it political groups?

17 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:15:45am

re: #16 Sergey Romanov

Or was it political groups?

Well, Lemkin did exclude political groups, but AFAIK this was pretty obviously because of fear the USSR would reject the Convention in light of their mass class murder (Dekulakization, etc.) which was essentially targetting economic factors (wealth, property holdings) rather than political affiliation.

18 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:19:02am

re: #17 000G

That's basically why I think "genocide" is overrated and "democide" should take its place.

19 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Jul 31, 2011 4:20:25am

re: #18 Sergey Romanov

That's basically why I think "genocide" is overrated and "democide" should take its place.

Agreed.


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