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1 HappyWarrior  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 3:43:58pm

It's true that Lee wasn't as bigot as say Nathan Forrest but Wilkins is guilty of some great historical revisionism here. And the poitns about Southern whties being kindly to Southern blacks are utter nonsense when one knows about all the crap that blacks in the South had to go through. I am sure Wilkins would love it if osmeone enslaved him.

2 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 4:19:58pm
Northerners were often shocked and offended by the familiarity that existed as a matter of course between the whites and blacks of the old South. This was one of the surprising and unintended consequences of slavery. Slavery, as it operated in the pervasively Christian society which was the old South, was not an adversarial relationship founded on racial animosity. In fact, it bred on the whole, not contempt, but, over time, mutual respect. This produced a mutual esteem of the sort that always results when men give themselves to a common cause.

The credit for this startling reality must go to the Christian faith.

What this explanation does is it deals with how some folks related to other folks, but it completely dismisses or ignores the institution of slavery which by it's nature, was in and of itself was abusive.

It does not MATTER if this or that or the other individual white farmer was "good" to his slaves and treated them well. It just doesn't.

The institution itself was wrong; ownership of people, where they did not have the freedom to pursue their own dreams or wants or needs, but had to always serve the wants, dreams and needs of others.

3 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 4:28:52pm

re: #2 reine.de.tout

What this explanation does is it deals with how some folks related to other folks, but it completely dismisses or ignores the institution of slavery which by it's nature, was in and of itself was abusive.

It does not MATTER if this or that or the other individual white farmer was "good" to his slaves and treated them well. It just doesn't.

The institution itself was wrong; ownership of people, where they did not have the freedom to pursue their own dreams or wants or needs, but had to always serve the wants, dreams and needs of others.

Exactly. It is a moral evil for one human being to own another like property. Also, this revisionism does not explain the 100 years of Jim Crow that followed or the violent backlash against ending it during the 1960s. My parents and grandparents damn sure don't recall a whole lot of mutual respect and esteem.

4 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 5:44:53pm

Anyone know if Michele Bachmann is descended from the Copperheads?

5 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 6:48:11pm

There is an old saying about a chained dog and a free wolf.

A chained dog may have a dog house and a free meal provided every day, but he may only go where his master allows, eat what his master gives him and take whatever beatings or praise comes his way. The wolf may go days without food and live with the elements, yet he is free.

Which would Michelle rather be?

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:36:32pm

re: #1 HappyWarrior

It's true that Lee wasn't as bigot as say Nathan Forrest but Wilkins is guilty of some great historical revisionism here. And the poitns about Southern whties being kindly to Southern blacks are utter nonsense when one knows about all the crap that blacks in the South had to go through. I am sure Wilkins would love it if osmeone enslaved him.

You can't use a cordial relationship between a man and his valet to justify the enslavement of the valet.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:39:01pm

re: #2 reine.de.tout

What this explanation does is it deals with how some folks related to other folks, but it completely dismisses or ignores the institution of slavery which by it's nature, was in and of itself was abusive.

It does not MATTER if this or that or the other individual white farmer was "good" to his slaves and treated them well. It just doesn't.

The institution itself was wrong; ownership of people, where they did not have the freedom to pursue their own dreams or wants or needs, but had to always serve the wants, dreams and needs of others.

Many men throughout history loved their wives, were kind to them, and treated them with honor and respect. That does not change the fact that women were legally impaired, vulnerable to abuse, often abused, and denied the rights of citizens.

Similarly, how you treat a slave does not make up for the fact that they are, in fact, a slave.

8 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:46:47pm

re: #3 moderatelyradicalliberal

Exactly. It is a moral evil for one human being to own another like property. Also, this revisionism does not explain the 100 years of Jim Crow that followed or the violent backlash against ending it during the 1960s. My parents and grandparents damn sure don't recall a whole lot of mutual respect and esteem.

Although, visiting my in-laws in Northern Louisiana, I did have one flash of insight. I knew they were Obama voters, and I'd seen first-hand that they were racists, by my lights. Finally, one day, my GMIL commented that they'd taken the car in to town so Bob could have a look at it--now Bob's black, and he's an EXCELLENT mechanic...making eye contact with me...and it suddenly dawned on me.

They voted for Obama because being president is like being a car mechanic. It's a job, which does not infringe on established rights and exclusions. It's not only OK to vote for a black man as your car mechanic, or your president, it proves you're open-minded. However, if Bob or Obama tries to marry a white woman, or move in next door, or point out that he's being discriminated against in any way, we're going to freak out.

Don't think this would have been the same even thirty or forty years ago. Still, it was an interesting moment for me.

(Several Obama canvassers independently and anecdotally reported during the election that they were informed that the people in the house were 'voting for the n*****.' Not in a mocking or sarcastic way, either.)

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Aug 9, 2011 11:47:03pm

re: #4 ProLifeLiberal

Anyone know if Michele Bachmann is descended from the Copperheads?

Morally if not genealogically.

10 HappyWarrior  Wed, Aug 10, 2011 8:26:54am

re: #6 SanFranciscoZionist

You can't use a cordial relationship between a man and his valet to justify the enslavement of the valet.

For sure. Plus, it's a myth that things were fine between blacks and whites until the Civil War in the South.


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