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1 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:55:22am
Each and every one of these terror attacks are crimes against humanity and war crimes under international law, yet the people who twitter about how Israel may have killed civilians ignore that salient point.

Second intifada redux as far as the international community goes. Turning a blind eye to terror against an entire country. Maybe we can be thankful twitter hadn't been invented at that time.

The rise of terrorist activity in the Sinai is frightening and Egypt's inability to control it. If Assad is ousted, will Israel be attacked on both sides?

2 lawhawk  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:14:49am

One way to look at this is that Assad is working through his proxies in Hamas and Hizbullah to take the pressure off Syria by putting the spotlight back on Israel via terror attacks intended to force Israel to retaliate against Gaza. Make Gaza look poor and defenseless and posture Israel as the aggressor, while it is merely defending itself from terror attacks.

Hamas, Hizbullah, and other terror groups call Damascus home. They have access to Assad, and their actions need to be seen as an extension of Assad's foreign policy.

3 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 1:40:26pm

I wish Charles would give this LGF front-page attention.

I'm curious (nervous?) to see how LGF readers would respond in the comments. Hopefully, most would still support Israel, as most LGF readers have done in past. Now that the blog has changed tone to call more attention to Republican candidates/philosophy, I'm not so sure.

4 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 1:48:48pm

re: #3 eff

I wish Charles would give this LGF front-page attention.

I'm curious (nervous?) to see how LGF readers would respond in the comments. Hopefully, most would still support Israel, as most LGF readers have done in past. Now that the blog has changed tone to call more attention to Republican candidates/philosophy, I'm not so sure.

Why is the response of LGF readers so important to you?

5 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:10:48pm

re: #4 wrenchwench

I think Charles is still very supportive of Israel and understands what the Israel is up against in terms of terror, neighbors who want it destroyed, etc. I wonder what the readers think.

If anything -- and I hope it's not the case -- but I fear that Israel could become a political issue, where more Rs are sympathetic to israel and more Ds are sympathetic to palestinians.

6 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:31:15pm

re: #5 eff

I think Charles is still very supportive of Israel and understands what the Israel is up against in terms of terror, neighbors who want it destroyed, etc. I wonder what the readers think.

If anything -- and I hope it's not the case -- but I fear that Israel could become a political issue, where more Rs are sympathetic to israel and more Ds are sympathetic to palestinians.

You could go to the active thread (the top one on the front page) and ask the readers who are there what they think. It has been a topic of discussion already.

Nice upgrades to your profile, btw.

7 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:39:41pm

re: #3 eff

I wish Charles would give this LGF front-page attention.

I'm curious (nervous?) to see how LGF readers would respond in the comments. Hopefully, most would still support Israel, as most LGF readers have done in past. Now that the blog has changed tone to call more attention to Republican candidates/philosophy, I'm not so sure.

One of the reasons I've found refuge here is it's one of the few places -- on earth, it seems -- where Republicans are criticized yet you can still be pro-Israel with np. It's a rarity. I don't see that as having changed. I think Republicans are full of crud on the ME, anyway, and do not trust them as far as I can throw them on the issue. Well, the CZ ones, anyway.

8 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:40:34pm

re: #2 lawhawk

One way to look at this is that Assad is working through his proxies in Hamas and Hizbullah to take the pressure off Syria by putting the spotlight back on Israel via terror attacks intended to force Israel to retaliate against Gaza. Make Gaza look poor and defenseless and posture Israel as the aggressor, while it is merely defending itself from terror attacks.

Hamas, Hizbullah, and other terror groups call Damascus home. They have access to Assad, and their actions need to be seen as an extension of Assad's foreign policy.

I said as much in my more emotional post last evening.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Last Thursday, Clinton called on Assad to step aside. Maybe that's not such a good idea right now unless the whole region goes up in flames. What horror would fill that vacuum?

[Link: www.state.gov...]

9 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:50:22pm

re: #7 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

One of the reasons I've found refuge here is it's one of the few places -- on earth, it seems -- where Republicans are criticized yet you can still be pro-Israel with np. It's a rarity. I don't see that as having changed. I think Republicans are full of crud on the ME, anyway, and do not trust them as far as I can throw them on the issue. Well, the CZ ones, anyway.

We criticize everybody.

I'm one who used to criticize Israel as the bully on the block and took the side of the Palestinians as being generally victims until a few people here led me to information I hadn't considered previously. Now I criticize Israel and/or the Palestinians based on the circumstance and I unequivocally and vehemently condemn the shelling of Israeli civilians by Palestinian terrorist groups.

I still believe there are people in Palestine who do not want the violence.

10 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:51:02pm

re: #7 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

One of the reasons I've found refuge here is it's one of the few places -- on earth, it seems -- where Republicans are criticized yet you can still be pro-Israel with np. It's a rarity. I don't see that as having changed. I think Republicans are full of crud on the ME, anyway, and do not trust them as far as I can throw them on the issue. Well, the CZ ones, anyway.

As far as the Congress goes, both sides have always actively supported Israel save for a small few out of 435. But Republican citizens have been far more supportive than Democrats as a whole. The only large percentage of Democrats who support Israel has been the Jewish community. It's one of the things that has disappointed me as a liberal.

11 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:51:33pm

re: #9 b_sharp

I still believe there are people in Palestine who do not want the violence.

Who? Where are their voices?

12 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:51:38pm

re: #8 marjoriemoon

I said as much in my more emotional post last evening.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Last Thursday, Clinton called on Assad to step aside. Maybe that's not such a good idea right now unless the whole region goes up in flames. What horror would fill that vacuum?

[Link: www.state.gov...]

The risks of leaving him there, especially if the US participated in keeping him there, have to be greater than the risks if (when) he goes.

13 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 2:58:10pm

re: #12 wrenchwench

The risks of leaving him there, especially if the US participated in keeping him there, have to be greater than the risks if (when) he goes.

I don't know. Syria and Israel don't have a treaty, but there's been a "cold peace". Syria prefers to work in the background, arming Hizzoblah and Hamas. If Assad was removed, would that change? Like it did when Mubarak was removed? These recent attacks started from the Sinai.

14 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:00:43pm

re: #11 marjoriemoon

Who? Where are their voices?

Who would they talk to, and would we hear them? Were the political parties in Palestine, such as Hamas, voted in unanimously? If not, then there are obviously some who disagree with the current politics.

15 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:07:07pm

re: #14 b_sharp

Who would they talk to, and would we hear them? Were the political parties in Palestine, such as Hamas, voted in unanimously? If not, then there are obviously some who disagree with the current politics.

They sure know how to tweet and I've been watching for 3 days with no empathy or sympathy or calls for peace.

16 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:09:31pm

re: #15 marjoriemoon

They sure know how to tweet and I've been watching for 3 days with no empathy or sympathy or calls for peace.

So their culture and population are monolithic? That would be a human first.

17 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:10:56pm

re: #10 marjoriemoon

The only large percentage of Democrats who support Israel has been the Jewish community. It's one of the things that has disappointed me as a liberal.

And I just dont understand it. Israel lives liberal values every day. Freedom of press, religion, fair elections, equal treatment for women and gays, a fair justice system -- none of which exist in the surrounding countries / Israel's enemies.

Yet Israel is the bad guy for defending those principles for ALL its citizens, regardless of religion.

18 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:13:32pm

re: #17 eff

And I just dont understand it. Israel lives liberal values every day. Freedom of press, religion, fair elections, equal treatment for women and gays, a fair justice system -- none of which exist in the surrounding countries / Israel's enemies.

Yet Israel is the bad guy for defending those principles for ALL its citizens, regardless of religion.

Well, Israel are the Jews, so....

You and I know it's the propaganda that's taken hold and the need to support the "underdog" of which the Palestinians are seen, instead of the terrorist force that they are.

19 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:14:24pm

re: #16 b_sharp

So their culture and population are monolithic? That would be a human first.

Not monolithic. You have the PA on one end and Hamas on the other.

But neither wants peace with Israel -- or at least they're not willing to make it. And if they were willing to make peace, I dont think they'd be able to enforce it.

20 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:15:04pm

re: #17 eff

And I just dont understand it. Israel lives liberal values every day. Freedom of press, religion, fair elections, equal treatment for women and gays, a fair justice system -- none of which exist in the surrounding countries / Israel's enemies.

Yet Israel is the bad guy for defending those principles for ALL its citizens, regardless of religion.

It's the psychology of rooting for the underdog, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Come from that perspective and terrorists become freedom fighters.

21 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:19:12pm

re: #20 b_sharp

It's the psychology of rooting for the underdog, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Come from that perspective and terrorists become freedom fighters.

Well then it might just have to stay that way, because I'm pretty sure Israel has no interest in being underdogs, downtrodden or oppressed. I'd rather be criticized than killed.

22 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:19:34pm

re: #18 marjoriemoon

Well, Israel are the Jews, so...

Don't play the anti-Semitic card here, most on the left have no trouble separating the politics from the people and will condemn antisemitism on sight.

You and I know it's the propaganda that's taken hold and the need to support the "underdog" of which the Palestinians are seen, instead of the terrorist force that they are.

That is completely accurate.

23 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:19:36pm

re: #16 b_sharp

So their culture and population are monolithic? That would be a human first.

When you live in a country that prevents you from speaking out, then you don't speak out or they kill you. But when the free world is as terrorized by them as they are, you end up with another world war on your hands. That is the price you pay for not taking a stand.

24 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:22:56pm

re: #19 eff

Not monolithic. You have the PA on one end and Hamas on the other.

But neither wants peace with Israel -- or at least they're not willing to make it. And if they were willing to make peace, I dont think they'd be able to enforce it.

I agree that the political parties in power do not want peace and have expended a great deal of time and money convincing the Palestinian population Israel is an evil entity that needs to be wiped out.

I'm not talking about the political power but the average family.

25 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:26:14pm

re: #20 b_sharp

It's the psychology of rooting for the underdog, the downtrodden and the oppressed. Come from that perspective and terrorists become freedom fighters.

There is no reason they need to be "downtrodden" or "oppressed." They've had 63 years to make treaties. Israel would help them if they wanted peace. Israel helps them now!

Did you know the Palestinians and Egyptians attempted to bomb a pipe line from Israel to Jordan last week? With 5 other previous attempts? All of this after the fall of Mubarak. Do they care about the Jordanians even?

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

26 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:27:15pm

re: #24 b_sharp

I agree that the political parties in power do not want peace and have expended a great deal of time and money convincing the Palestinian population Israel is an evil entity that needs to be wiped out.

I'm not talking about the political power but the average family.

I think the average family has been convinced by the "great deal of time and money" that you referred to that Israel and the Jews are evil. It's reinforced in schools, mosques, and the public dialogue. They name streets after suicide bombers!

All of that (and much more) makes it "culturally correct" to want to fight (er, resist) Israel until there is no more Israel.

27 b_sharp  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:27:26pm

re: #21 eff

Well then it might just have to stay that way, because I'm pretty sure Israel has no interest in being underdogs, downtrodden or oppressed. I'd rather be criticized than killed.

What needs to happen is an accurate exposition of what happens in Israel and Gaza to show it isn't a matter of a suppressor and the suppressed. re: #25 marjoriemoon

There is no reason they need to be "downtrodden" or "oppressed." They've had 63 years to make treaties. Israel would help them if they wanted peace. Israel helps them now!

Did you know the Palestinians and Egyptians attempted to bomb a pipe line from Israel to Jordan last week? With 5 other previous attempts? All of this after the fall of Mubarak. Do they care about the Jordanians even?

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]


No I didn't know that.

Are you of the opinion I back what Hamas is doing?

28 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:30:33pm

re: #25 marjoriemoon


Did you know the Palestinians and Egyptians attempted to bomb a pipe line from Israel to Jordan last week? With 5 other previous attempts? All of this after the fall of Mubarak. Do they care about the Jordanians even?

[Link: latimesblogs.latimes.com...]

I'd argue that the people who blew up the pipelines don't even care about Egypt.

29 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:34:34pm

re: #27 b_sharp

What needs to happen is an accurate exposition of what happens in Israel and Gaza to show it isn't a matter of a suppressor and the suppressed.

That's the million dollar matter for Israel. They've tried and people still call it "zionist propaganda." They're trying harder now, with a good presence on FB, Twitter and YouTube.

It's a complicated issue and Israel has to tell a long story of history. Palestinians just have to show one slum and blame it on Israel. Poof -- international sympathy.

30 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:39:58pm

In 1936, on the East End of London, the British Union of Fascists led by Sir Oswald Mosley (the Blackshirts) attempted to march down Cable Street, the home of immigrants, mostly Jews, Irish and Italians. Over 10,000 police, 4,000 on horseback, were sent to clear the way for the march.

The people came out by the 1000s, armed with brooms, sticks, whatever they can manage and fought the police which ended up preventing the march. About 100 were injured, including women and children.

A folk punk group "The Men They Couldn't Hang" wrote a song about the incident called "Ghosts of Cable Street". Brave men and women stood up to the fascists that day. I wonder and I cry to think that maybe WWII could have possibly been prevented had more done the same, but I don't think that anyone thought it would happen as it did. Today we know the evil that men do.

Aaron Biber whose barbershop was trashed in the riots a couple weeks ago was there.

31 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 3:48:04pm

re: #27 b_sharp

What needs to happen is an accurate exposition of what happens in Israel and Gaza to show it isn't a matter of a suppressor and the suppressed. re: #25 marjoriemoon

No I didn't know that.

Are you of the opinion I back what Hamas is doing?

No, I know you don't, but when good man stand idly by if something they can do would prevent it (as you're suggesting there are) they, too, must take the responsibility.

32 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 4:39:56pm

re: #31 marjoriemoon

No, I know you don't, but when good man stand idly by if something they can do would prevent it (as you're suggesting there are) they, too, must take the responsibility.

After seeing hamasniks tossing fatahniks out of windows, I would think tweeting anything not supportive of the regime would be suicidal. I don't consider suicide a duty under any circumstances.

33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 4:50:46pm

re: #27 b_sharp

What needs to happen is an accurate exposition of what happens in Israel and Gaza to show it isn't a matter of a suppressor and the suppressed.

I think at this point, most of that has to come from self-education, and being willing to get your ass kicked when asking dumb questions or saying things that might be considered ignorant.

I don't see any other way to move beyond this static, stereotypical view of "Israel" = aggressor/"Palestinians" = oppressed. I often just end up putting what I did in quotes because of the clip art/2 dimensional views cast of each.

34 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 4:55:40pm

re: #29 eff

That's the million dollar matter for Israel. They've tried and people still call it "zionist propaganda." They're trying harder now, with a good presence on FB, Twitter and YouTube.

It's a complicated issue and Israel has to tell a long story of history. Palestinians just have to show one slum and blame it on Israel. Poof -- international sympathy.

Then there are major blunders like what happened in the 2nd part of this post. The counter was even worse, in my view. :/

35 What, me worry?  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 5:01:28pm

re: #33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I think at this point, most of that has to come from self-education, and being willing to get your ass kicked when asking dumb questions or saying things that might be considered ignorant.

I don't see any other way to move beyond this static, stereotypical view of "Israel" = aggressor/"Palestinians" = oppressed. I often just end up putting what I did in quotes because of the clip art/2 dimensional views cast of each.

I have no desire for political correctness in the face of terrorism and tyranny. What I have stated and will continue to state is the truth and if people don't want to believe it, it's their problem, not mine.

OTOH the world accepts the lie that "Israel = aggressor, Palestinians = oppressed". And isn't that quite PC these days. Call the Palestinians the aggressors, even if they were the FIRST to attack, and you get a call to protect the innocent Palestinians.

Whatever.

36 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 5:15:56pm

re: #10 marjoriemoon

As far as the Congress goes, both sides have always actively supported Israel save for a small few out of 435. But Republican citizens have been far more supportive than Democrats as a whole. The only large percentage of Democrats who support Israel has been the Jewish community. It's one of the things that has disappointed me as a liberal.

Yeah, I have my doubts about that re: Republicans. They mainly just want someone to sell weapons to, so have a stake in backing admins that want to buy them. I don't think the average Republican Christian-supremacist bigot gives two cruds about Jews (unless as a stick to beat other numerical minorities in the US), or Judaism (unless it's to study it to get people to convert), or a Jewish homeland, any more than they do Black and Latino Christians in ghettoes and barrios here.

Israeli citizens may or may not care about their sincerity in exchange for support, but I do, because I believe the support is fickle, like everything else they do. They can't be trusted anywhere do to right by anyone, in my book, but that's a personal opinion.

Did you see any notable shift in D Congressional support when Kadima was in power? I would think Ds would be more amenable to something left of Likud, but this is "the Israel issue™" so, no guarantees on that..

37 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:14:42pm

re: #34 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Then there are major blunders like what happened in the 2nd part of this post. The counter was even worse, in my view. :/

Yes, that was a big eff up. Israel doesn't need to do that. The facts are on their side.

38 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:22:41pm

re: #36 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

I'm cynical, but not nearly as you. :- )

I think Rs who support israel see Arabs and their value system as a common enemy. Rs tend to see the world more in terms of right and wrong vs a fuzzy grey area, and they see Israel as a friend.

I've met several evangelical christians who are supportive of israel for religious reasons, and their support is anything but fickle. Quite the opposite -- they're following God's heed in their support of the jewish state ("I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.") Granted, I may not agree with them on many other political issues, but their support for israel is deep and genuine.

As for Kadima vs Likud, the US Congress has been quite supportive of Israel regardless of who's in charge. Similarly, people opposed to israel remain opposed, Kadima, Likud, or Labor.

39 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:24:41pm

re: #38 eff

I'm cynical, but not nearly as you. :- )

I think Rs who support israel see Arabs and their value system as a common enemy. Rs tend to see the world more in terms of right and wrong vs a fuzzy grey area, and they see Israel as a friend.

But that's a reversal. The right-wing used to be openly pally with the Saudis, and only the liberal feminists really caused a big fuss about the Arab value system.

All of the anti-arab stuff from the Right wing is vintage 2001. It wasn't there before. It seems very well fleshed out just because it's based in a very general xenophobia in the right wing.

40 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:39:41pm

re: #39 Obdicut

But that's a reversal. The right-wing used to be openly pally with the Saudis, and only the liberal feminists really caused a big fuss about the Arab value system.

All of the anti-arab stuff from the Right wing is vintage 2001. It wasn't there before. It seems very well fleshed out just because it's based in a very general xenophobia in the right wing.

Both parties have to be pally with the Saudis b/c we need their oil. If it weren't for that, no one would care about them.

I dont know about anti-arab sentiment being based in 2001, although it's understandable. The arab world rejoiced after 9.11. That does send a signal.

41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 6:54:14pm

re: #38 eff

I've met several evangelical christians who are supportive of israel for religious reasons, and their support is anything but fickle. Quite the opposite -- they're following God's heed in their support of the jewish state ("I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.") Granted, I may not agree with them on many other political issues, but their support for israel is deep and genuine.

I don't think so at all, unless you mean deeply and genuinely pathological :D I grew up Premillenial Dispensationalist, the main group that makes up Republican Evangelical Christian Zionists (there are a few different factions.) All those cobbled together Bible verses are a grand abstract fantasy, with very little heed for what their theologies cause real people "on the ground" outside their insular communities, and in other parts of the world, Israel included.

In fact, I would say "especially Israel", because the major concern of people who believe that way is packing as many Jews into Israel so their messiah can return and turn the world into a Christians-rule/everyone else better convert theocracy.

Islam is satan worship, Arabs are subhumans, and Jews are just placeholders in some theological fantasy. They may have swept their legendary, more overt supercessionism under the rug to put on a friendlier facade, but the idea is still foundational to their supposed "support". So, I don't support them. They cannot be trusted.

42 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:04:42pm

re: #40 eff

I dont know about anti-arab sentiment being based in 2001, although it's understandable. The arab world rejoiced after 9.11. That does send a signal.

The Arab world, not being a monolithic entity, didn't do anything. And you're dignifying a lot of the xenophobic bigotry as being actual awareness of foreign events. Unfortunately, that's not the case. These same morons attack Sikhs.

43 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:04:47pm

re: #41 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

In fact, I would say "especially Israel", because the major concern of people who believe that way is packing as many Jews into Israel so their messiah can return and turn the world into a Christians-rule/everyone else better convert theocracy.

I know that, and I'm mostly OK with it. I'll deal with the repercussions when the messiah shows up. ;-)

44 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:08:00pm

re: #39 Obdicut

But that's a reversal. The right-wing used to be openly pally with the Saudis, and only the liberal feminists really caused a big fuss about the Arab value system.

All of the anti-arab stuff from the Right wing is vintage 2001. It wasn't there before. It seems very well fleshed out just because it's based in a very general xenophobia in the right wing.

Well, they still are. They get their news from Fox the Victory Mosque, seemingly with zero cognitive dissonance about it, at all. I think it's hilarious.

re: #38 eff

I think Rs who support israel see Arabs and their value system as a common enemy. Rs tend to see the world more in terms of right and wrong vs a fuzzy grey area, and they see Israel as a friend.

I don't think many of them know anything about Arabs or any Arab value systems, including those of fellow Christian Arabs, beyond a few crude stereotypes. As re: right and wrong, though they may be quick to throw the morals card, Rs definitely do not have a monopoly on absolutist thinking, or ethics-based thinking. Some of their politicians are the biggest liars, marriage cheats, and con artists around.

45 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:09:19pm

re: #42 Obdicut

The Arab world, not being a monolithic entity, didn't do anything. And you're dignifying a lot of the xenophobic bigotry as being actual awareness of foreign events. Unfortunately, that's not the case. These same morons attack Sikhs.

I dont think I'm dignifying xenophobic bigotry. Most people were aware of foreign events on 9/11 and the hours/days/months that followed.

But I agree that the same morons will attack anyone who doesn't agree with their religious ideology.

46 Obdicut  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:13:00pm

re: #45 eff

I dont think I'm dignifying xenophobic bigotry. Most people were aware of foreign events on 9/11 and the hours/days/months that followed.

No, they really weren't. They didn't suddenly get an understanding of what the Sunni and the Shi'ite are. They didn't suddenly understand that Iranians are Persian and not Arab. They didn't suddenly gain the ability to actually locate those countries on a map or know the first thing about them. They didn't suddenly realize what a Sikh was, or a Zorastrian, or a Coptic Christian, or a Druze.

Most people are quite ignorant of Middle East affairs. If all you're saying is that people saw pictures of Arabs celebrating after 9/11 and that is the sole explanation for most anti-Arab bigotry, I'm going to have to ask you if you're being serious.

47 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:13:37pm

re: #43 eff

I know that, and I'm mostly OK with it. I'll deal with the repercussions when the messiah shows up. ;-)

Oh no, it's common knowledge. I wasn't trying to explain something you might already know. CZs are quite explicit about their supremacist views, and their aims regarding Israelis (and every other group of people they look down on) that's no secret. I'm just saying why they earn nothing but ridicule and scorn from my corner.

48 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:46:47pm

re: #46 Obdicut

re: #46 Obdicut

Most people are quite ignorant of Middle East affairs. If all you're saying is that people saw pictures of Arabs celebrating after 9/11 and that is the sole explanation for most anti-Arab bigotry, I'm going to have to ask you if you're being serious.

Most people aren't as knowledgable as you are, clearly, but 9/11 was eye opening as to how we're viewed in the arab world. In no way am I saying the fact that ignorant people hate us should be the starting point of any policy, but it's good to know where we stand.

Look at Egypt right now. I've read reports that 10,000 people gathered at the Israeli Embassy and one person removed the Israeli flag (#flagman is trending). People were chanting "give us arms and let us go to jerusalem." Is that reason to hate all egyptians? No, of course not. But it's enlightening and potentially foreshadowing.

49 eff  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 7:47:47pm

re: #47 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Oh no, it's common knowledge. I wasn't trying to explain something you might already know. CZs are quite explicit about their supremacist views, and their aims regarding Israelis (and every other group of people they look down on) that's no secret. I'm just saying why they earn nothing but ridicule and scorn from my corner.

Honestly, I don't know tons of CZs. The few I do know are nice -- they're involved with CUFI and come to Jewish events to show their support.

50 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 8:40:55pm

re: #49 eff

Honestly, I don't know tons of CZs. The few I do know are nice -- they're involved with CUFI and come to Jewish events to show their support.

I've known many, many, many over many years (before they were even called CZs), and used to be one, myself. I can't vouch if they were ever members but my parents were on the CUFI mailing list, as well as other CZ prayer groups. Those types go to Jewish events, celebrate a couple Jewish holidays here or there, learn Hebrew (I have a watch of my mother's with Hebrew numbers), and purport to learn about what they think is Jewish culture because they see themselves as the true inheritors of Judaism.

51 Cankles McCellulite  Sat, Aug 20, 2011 9:49:36pm

I am coming in late to another conversation. But i am a Democrat who is very pro Israel. I hate saying i am pro Israel because there is no other nation i have to say that about. Even when apartheid South Africa-a truly evil institution-was at its worst, i never heard any one ponder South Africa's right to exist, they just wanted apartheid over. I am not Jewish, but i too have been disappointed with liberals on this. One thing that gives me hope is that given the opportunity to explain to liberal friends the situation they start to understand. Even i probably wouldn't have understood had i not been very close to someone for some time who was a liberal Jew who was pro Israel. That being said, i do not trust the intentions or longevity of the Religious rights pro Jewish stance. I know several too well and i know how pro-Israel they are when you are discussing needing the Jews for the return of Christ yet a very different side comes out when discussing the Jewish people under different terms. In other words, they don't much care for Jewish people as individuals-and how they seem to destroy conservative protestant societies-but their bible tells them the Jews are needed. I also would like to add that i have read Jewish comments before where they state that they know that the religious right is just using them to fulfill a prophesy but that they are willing to take that because they need all the friends they can get in Israel. That makes me sad to read because no one should feel they need to take friends they can't trust. The international community has let Israel down in that sense. Israel has always been everyones whipping boy. Israel has done everything all the super powers have told them to over the years. They have probably even done things that they didn't want to do, or they knew might put them in danger but America or England told them to. "OK boss" And now everyone turns around and acts like they don't know what time it is.

52 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 2:42:56am

re: #48 eff

re: #46 Obdicut

Most people aren't as knowledgable as you are, clearly, but 9/11 was eye opening as to how we're viewed in the arab world. In no way am I saying the fact that ignorant people hate us should be the starting point of any policy, but it's good to know where we stand.
.

But that wasn't your claim. Your claim was anti-Arab sentiment came from seeing the celebrations post 9/11. And that is a really ridiculous claim.

53 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:02:32am

re: #18 marjoriemoon

Well, Israel are the Jews, so...

You and I know it's the propaganda that's taken hold and the need to support the "underdog" of which the Palestinians are seen, instead of the terrorist force that they are.

More than that, it is also a vicious anti-american anti-imperialism that harkens back to Stalin's days and has a firm foothold still in much of today's Left. But yeah, in the case of Israel, it also has mixed with a lot of vile antisemitic stereotypes, most prominently "the parasitic Jew illoyal to his host nation", as expressed in the slur "israel-firster".

54 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:04:37am

Apropos: [Link: www.dailykos.com...]

55 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:35:21am

re: #51 Cankles McCellulite

I am coming in late to another conversation. But i am a Democrat who is very pro Israel. I hate saying i am pro Israel because there is no other nation i have to say that about. Even when apartheid South Africa-a truly evil institution-was at its worst, i never heard any one ponder South Africa's right to exist, they just wanted apartheid over. I am not Jewish, but i too have been disappointed with liberals on this. One thing that gives me hope is that given the opportunity to explain to liberal friends the situation they start to understand. Even i probably wouldn't have understood had i not been very close to someone for some time who was a liberal Jew who was pro Israel. That being said, i do not trust the intentions or longevity of the Religious rights pro Jewish stance. I know several too well and i know how pro-Israel they are when you are discussing needing the Jews for the return of Christ yet a very different side comes out when discussing the Jewish people under different terms. In other words, they don't much care for Jewish people as individuals-and how they seem to destroy conservative protestant societies-but their bible tells them the Jews are needed. I also would like to add that i have read Jewish comments before where they state that they know that the religious right is just using them to fulfill a prophesy but that they are willing to take that because they need all the friends they can get in Israel. That makes me sad to read because no one should feel they need to take friends they can't trust. The international community has let Israel down in that sense. Israel has always been everyones whipping boy. Israel has done everything all the super powers have told them to over the years. They have probably even done things that they didn't want to do, or they knew might put them in danger but America or England told them to. "OK boss" And now everyone turns around and acts like they don't know what time it is.

Sorry I left last night, but I needed a break.

You touch on a lot of good points. For many years (decades), Israel had the support of the international community until the constant bleating of Arafat's propaganda. He knew he couldn't physically destroy the Jews so he did so verbally. For some reason that I can't quite place, Israel (and Jews in the diaspora) have never been that good at counter-acting that negative PR.

I also would like to add that i have read Jewish comments before where they state that they know that the religious right is just using them to fulfill a prophesy but that they are willing to take that because they need all the friends they can get in Israel. That makes me sad to read because no one should feel they need to take friends they can't trust.

I could probably write a novel about this! But my basic feeling is that the Religious Right has a story (end times philosophy) and Jews have a story which are two different stories. Each feel they are correct, but in the end, it's all prophecy. What matters is what is happening TODAY. This sentiment is felt much more strongly in Israel because they are dealing with the boots on the ground reality and don't have a lot of time for religious or political "contemplation" or philosophy of what may or may not happen. I mean, in relation to support of Israel. In the end, Jews will not compromise Israel's existence in any way, shape or form and I have more trust in that than what makes me a skeptical about Christian support.

Anyway, Christians SHOULD support Israel. We are the keepers of their faith there, their churches and holy spots. Christians (who identify as such, not necessarily evangelicals) do support Israel. Secular people, not so much. A lot of it is based in the thought that "they've been fighting for 1000s of years, so who cares." Or "it's all based on religious dogma on God as a real estate agent" which it's not actually.

56 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 8:50:37am

re: #54 000G

Apropos: [Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Interesting read. One point of the many proclamations there.

• Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non­Jews.

Well, good luck with that LOL That's pretty much a centuries old occurrence.

If Jews tend to rush to that "anti-Semitic" place, can you really blame them? It's only been 63 years since the modern founding of Israel and for 1000s of years prior, we were distrustful of the "others" because... you know... they were killing us.

This I like:

... when Israel is demonized, when Israel is held to different standards than the rest of the countries, and when Israel is delegitimized. These cases are not disagreements with a policy of Israel, this is anti-Semitism. I feel I must also state: sometimes people hide their anti-Semitism behind criticism of Israel’s existence – but criticism of Israel does not necessary mean someone is anti-Semitic. If so, half of Israel would be anti-Semitic.

57 wrenchwench  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 10:03:29am

re: #55 marjoriemoon

Christians (who identify as such, not necessarily evangelicals) do support Israel. Secular people, not so much.

Just checking in as a secular supporter of Israel.

58 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:45:29pm

re: #55 marjoriemoon

Sorry I left last night, but I needed a break.

You touch on a lot of good points. For many years (decades), Israel had the support of the international community until the constant bleating of Arafat's propaganda. He knew he couldn't physically destroy the Jews so he did so verbally. For some reason that I can't quite place, Israel (and Jews in the diaspora) have never been that good at counter-acting that negative PR.

I could probably write a novel about this! But my basic feeling is that the Religious Right has a story (end times philosophy) and Jews have a story which are two different stories. Each feel they are correct, but in the end, it's all prophecy. What matters is what is happening TODAY. This sentiment is felt much more strongly in Israel because they are dealing with the boots on the ground reality and don't have a lot of time for religious or political "contemplation" or philosophy of what may or may not happen. I mean, in relation to support of Israel. In the end, Jews will not compromise Israel's existence in any way, shape or form and I have more trust in that than what makes me a skeptical about Christian support.

Anyway, Christians SHOULD support Israel. We are the keepers of their faith there, their churches and holy spots. Christians (who identify as such, not necessarily evangelicals) do support Israel. Secular people, not so much. A lot of it is based in the thought that "they've been fighting for 1000s of years, so who cares." Or "it's all based on religious dogma on God as a real estate agent" which it's not actually.

Not necessarily. From a secular ex-Xian pov, some non-Jewish support is based in religious views, some is based in general agreement with secular Zionism, some out of support for what another secular democracy in that region has to deal with, some out of support for an underdog (in the sense that Israel is surrounded by 100% hostile elements and a big body of water), some out of respect for Jewish friends, any combination of the above. Lots of reasons.

Also, Christianity is not a monolith, by any stretch, on Israel support or any other issue. Getting 2 billion ppl to think with one mind on anything, well...let's just say their own efforts on that have never panned out. lol

59 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Sun, Aug 21, 2011 6:53:09pm

re: #51 Cankles McCellulite

I also would like to add that i have read Jewish comments before where they state that they know that the religious right is just using them to fulfill a prophesy but that they are willing to take that because they need all the friends they can get in Israel. That makes me sad to read because no one should feel they need to take friends they can't trust. The international community has let Israel down in that sense. Israel has always been everyones whipping boy. Israel has done everything all the super powers have told them to over the years.

qft

This situation is the way it is because people on my side dropped the ball and have yet to pick it back up again. Grown people also choose their own allies, that's on them to decide; if they decide I'm not an ally, then that's their prerogative. But we have not left Israel and supporters with a lot of options; that's on us.


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