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1 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 7:19:19am

IMO, truther-creep of aholes like American Free Press/Barnes Review and a bunch of other white bigot sites is what laid the groundwork for BDS on the left…now that the GWB admin is gone to have a Two Minutes Hate against, now anti-Zionism, so-called, has just been funneled into BDS. That’s just a personal view from having smacked down many a twoofer in the 00s; dunno how accurate it is.

The ADL came out with some great material about these dirty CTs. Glad to see the update.

2 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:17:50am

I have always wondered where did this meme of “Israelis dancing on a rooftop” and “Art students were spies!” come from? What evidence is there that this even happened? It’s just a rumor that someone pulled out of a random asshole.

3 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:32:37am

re: #2 Alouette

Summary from wiki:

In September, 2001, The New York Times and Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported that four hours after the attack, the FBI arrested five Israelis who had been filming the smoking skyline from the roof of a white van in the parking lot of an apartment building, for “puzzling behavior”. They were charged with illegally residing in the United States and working there without permits. The Israelis were said to have been videotaping the disaster with what was interpreted as cries of “joy and mockery”.[56][57] Police found the van and a search revealed $4,700 in cash hidden, along with foreign passports and a boxcutter which aroused suspicions and led to the detention of the occupants. The men were held in detention for more than 2 months, during which time they were subjected to interrogation and lie detector tests, before being deported back to Israel; one of the men (Paul Kurzberg) refused to take the test for 10 weeks, and then failed it.[58]

The five men worked at the company Urban Moving Systems, owned and operated by Dominick Suter. After the men were arrested the FBI searched their offices and questioned Suter, however Suter fled to Israel before he could be questioned further. Eventually, Suter’s name appeared on the May 2002 FBI Suspect List, along with the Sept. 11 hijackers and other suspected extremists.[59]

According to a former CIA chief of operations for counterterrorism Vince Cannistraro, there was speculation that Urban Moving Systems may have been a front for an intelligence operation investigating fund-raising networks channeling money to Hamas and Islamic Jihad. On March 15, 2002, The Forward claimed that the FBI had concluded that the van’s driver, Paul Kurzberg, and his brother Sivan, were indeed Mossad operatives, who were in America “spying on local Arabs”.[60] ABC news cited this report on June 21, 2002, adding that the FBI had concluded that the five Israelis had no foreknowledge of the attacks.[61]

In March, 2001, the US Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive had issued a warning about people identifying themselves as “Israeli art students” attempting to bypass security and gain entry to federal buildings, and even to the private residences of senior federal officials. A French intelligence agency later noted “according to the FBI, Arab terrorists and suspected terror cells lived in Phoenix, Arizona, as well as in Miami and Hollywood, Florida, from December 2000 to April 2001 in direct proximity to the Israeli spy cells”. The report contended that Mossad agents were spying on Mohammed Atta and Marwan al-Shehi, two of leaders of the 9/11 hijack teams.[62][63][64][65] In 2002 several officials dismissed reports of a spy ring and said the allegations were made by a Drug Enforcement Agency who was angry his theories had been dismissed.[66]

4 Alexzander  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 10:57:54am

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

Bizarre.

5 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 11:22:35am

re: #3 Sergey Romanov

people identifying themselves as “Israeli art students” attempting to bypass security and gain entry to federal buildings, and even to the private residences of senior federal officials

If you wanted to gain access to federal buildings or even the private residence of a federal official, wouldn’t it be easier and make more sense to identify yourself as “cleaning staff” instead of “art student”?

Do we rely on wiki as an accurate source of information or just a repository of memes and rumors?

6 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 11:23:51am

re: #5 Alouette

We don’t rely on wiki. Wiki has footnotes with links. Links can be checked out.

7 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:31:49pm

re: #6 Sergey Romanov

Why don’t you link the to Wiki article so that we can examine the footnotes? For instance, do footnotes 56 and 57 include the information in the first sentence, which appears to be a report on rumors?

Second, there is a rather strange relationship between US intelligence and, quite possibly, every other intelligence bureau in the world. There is no shortage of reports that other agencies knew of the plot well beforehand, but that US agencies ignored all of these reports. One of the problems of US intelligence is that they don’t believe any information that they don’t already officially believe.

The US has an especially strange relationship with Israel, where Israel provides valuable information, but is also a convenient scapegoat for those in the US establishment ‘sensitive’ to Arab politics. So—who saw who dancing?

If there were first responders that happened to see folks of top of a white van, behaving strangely (and what is normal in those circumstances?), did those responders just happen to speak Hebrew?

Also, there is this notion that allies don’t have spies in each others countries. Nonsense. There are American spies in Israel, and the UK, and Germany. However, there was a time when we didn’t have spies in Iran, and there is reason to suggest that we had lousy spies in Egypt, Syria, Tunisia, and Libya, if we had any there at all—which is not a sign of trust or competence.

8 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:34:53pm

> Why don’t you link the to Wiki article so that we can examine the footnotes?

Entering any quoted sentence in google will bring it up as the first result.

9 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:35:37pm

I remember one of the first ‘The Jews were behind it’ proofs. It seems that many buses of orthodox Jews arrived late to work that day, and therefore missed the zero hour.

However, this occurred during the 10 Days of Awe, and everyone was saying Selichos, which made every Jews late for work in all of the US. It’s impossible to say Selichos and still finish the service at the usual time. Can not be done. Guaranteed to go overtime by a half hour.

10 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 1:41:28pm

re: #8 Sergey Romanov

Ah ah ah.

That entire article is more of a report of rumors, not necessarily substantiated rumors, including rumors of US Intelligence incompetence.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 2:11:17pm

re: #10 Bob Levin

Ah ah ah.

That entire article is more of a report of rumors, not necessarily substantiated rumors, including rumors of US Intelligence incompetence.

“That entire article” is wikipedia article? Then you haven’t addressed any of the sources. Or did you have any particular source in mind? Then the purpose of the comment is hardly clear, so what if one of the sources is about rumors?

Here are some wiki refs:

[Link: www.haaretz.com…]

The Foreign Ministry said in response that it had been informed by the consulate in New York that the FBI had arrested the five for “puzzling behavior.” They are said to have had been caught videotaping the disaster and shouting in what was interpreted as cries of joy and mockery.

[Link: www.nytimes.com…]

In New Jersey, where officials believe the hijackers received assistance from an accomplice, Sherri Evanina, a F.B.I. spokeswoman in Newark, said five men were detained late Tuesday after the van in which they were driving was stopped on Route 3 in East Rutherford.

She said witnesses had reported seeing the men celebrating the attack on the World Trade Center earlier in the day in Union City.

These are not rumors by any standard. These are descriptions of witness statements. And mind you, it’s not necessary that the witnesses’ interpretations were correct, but there you have it - authorities repeat them, not some CT-mongers, so this is not a meme from some random asshole.

Then the “Israeli art students”. One of the sources is this rather informative piece - [Link: dir.salon.com…]

And it refers to this leaked DEA memo: [Link: cryptome.org…]

So again, it’s not merely a meme out of nowhere, although again, one must be cautious with interpretations (i.e. there are no firm grounds to call these people “spies”).

12 Bob Levin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 2:53:38pm

re: #11 Sergey Romanov

I never said it was out of nowhere. My position is that there is data, and then others interpret the data to fit their needs. I have no doubt that there were and are Israelis in New York tracking terrorism. I’m sure they went to ground zero, or as close as they could get, as it was happening. I’m also sure that they, as well as thousands of people were taping the events as they unfolded. However, bizarre behavior is a contextual judgment. When two airplanes crash into skyscrapers, what is normal behavior? Normal behavior in the proximity of the buildings is to run for your life or to save other lives. What is normal behavior when you’re not in proximity, especially since the event you’re seeing is not easily categorized. In other words, after ‘what the fuck?’, then what?

Let’s get clear. I’m not saying that your citations were false. I’m saying that the data leading to your citations did not necessarily lead to the conclusions within those citations. (Maybe ‘Let’s get clear’ wasn’t the best sentence to use up there.)

So again, it’s not merely a meme out of nowhere, although again, one must be cautious with interpretations (i.e. there are no firm grounds to call these people “spies”).

We’re agreeing.

13 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 4:20:48pm

re: #12 Bob Levin

We are indeed agreeing. What I demonstrated in my reply to Alouette is that these are not mere antisemitic myths like the “4000 Israelis stayed home” or some such thing. These are things rooted in fact, though they’re open to some interpretation.

14 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 6:13:27pm

re: #13 Sergey Romanov

What happened re: the art student and “five dancing israeli” stories was that antisemitic/crankodoodle sources took them and ran with them. whatreallyhappened and prisonplanet were the main ones. There were others, but wrh still runs crap about it on at least a monthly basis.

I won’t link to them, but 911 Myths wiki contains a decent catalogue of all the “foreknowledge” nonsense, complete with links to those sites.

[Link: www.911myths.com…]

Art students here: [Link: www.911myths.com…]

The guy who runs 911 myths is on the ed. board of Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories Journal.

15 laZardo  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:13:16pm

FUCK THE TWOOFERS.

and that’s all i gotta say bout them :x

16 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Aug 31, 2011 8:31:13pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

I remember one of the first ‘The Jews were behind it’ proofs. It seems that many buses of orthodox Jews arrived late to work that day, and therefore missed the zero hour.

However, this occurred during the 10 Days of Awe, and everyone was saying Selichos, which made every Jews late for work in all of the US. It’s impossible to say Selichos and still finish the service at the usual time. Can not be done. Guaranteed to go overtime by a half hour.

Interesting. Hadn’t heard that one.

So much of this crud is so easily debunked. Anything to keep smearing Jews, Judaism, Israel, anything related, though, ugh. So transparent.


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