Pages

Jump to bottom

13 comments

1 shutdown  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 12:30:50pm

In your next installment, I bet we learn that like many other nations that have a nasty habit of suppressing national ethnic minorities, the Turkish government has decided that a little tiff with Israel is just the thing to distract from bombing Kurds. Not to mention the pesky Armenian genocide question.

2 sliv_the_eli  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 1:06:06pm

Bob: If you are interested in reading up on the Kurdish issues, the following link to Amazon has what looks like an interesting collection of books, several by noted scholars, on the subject.

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

It has been a number of years since I have studied the subject, but I recall Edmund Ghareeb's book, The Kurdish Question in Iraq, being a good primer (as well as mandatory reading in an upper level academic seminar on Conflicts in the Middle East).

3 sliv_the_eli  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 1:17:54pm

re: #1 imp_62

In your next installment, I bet we learn that like many other nations that have a nasty habit of suppressing national ethnic minorities, the Turkish government has decided that a little tiff with Israel is just the thing to distract from bombing Kurds. Not to mention the pesky Armenian genocide question.

Turkey's AKP-led government doesn't need to use the anti-Israel card to cover up offensives against the PKK, which is largely viewed by the majority of Turks the way most Israelis view Hamas (although, for reasons that should be obvious, the analogy is an imperfect one).

To the contrary, the flamethrowing by Turkey's current prime minister is part of a longer-term effort to "reclaim" Turkey's leadership of the Muslim world. Folks can debate whether or to what extent Erdogan ultimately seeks to create a neo-Ottoman Islamist state in Turkey. What is clear, however, is that the events and his pronouncements over the past week vis-a-vis Israel are not isolated instances resulting from the boarding of the Mavi Marmara. Witness, for example, Mr. Erdogan's tirade at the 2009 Davos Conference, which preceded Mavi Marmara by more than 16 months:

With the Arab and Muslim world witnessing an upheaval almost unparalleled since the two world wars of the 20th century, Mr. Erdogan is staking his claim to "leadership" the way that the likes of Nasser, Saddam Husssein and others have staked their claims to such leadership previously, by positioning himself as the one leader willing and able to confront the "Zionist entity".

4 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 1:20:45pm

re: #1 imp_62

I think the direction I'll go, first, is trying to understand who the Kurds are. There was a comment the other day about Israel's Lieberman saying that Israel could support the Kurds--and someone said that it's a bad idea, or an ironic moment, that Israel is supporting a terrorist group.

If the PKK is considered a terrorist group, simply because they embraced Marx for a few years (which is State Department shorthand for, I don't want to read anymore), then that bears some examination. Who didn't read Marx in the 60s? It's very possible that the Kurds have a legitimate reason to want to rule themselves, and are obviously capable of doing so because they are geographically isolated. They've always had to rule themselves.

That's the first stage.

5 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 1:33:44pm

re: #2 sliv_the_eli

Thanks for the advice. Then we have to explore the distinction between a nationalist group and a terrorist group. There are indeed points where they overlap. The key is finding out where they diverge.

6 sliv_the_eli  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 1:38:47pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

I think the direction I'll go, first, is trying to understand who the Kurds are. There was a comment the other day about Israel's Lieberman saying that Israel could support the Kurds--and someone said that it's a bad idea, or an ironic moment, that Israel is supporting a terrorist group.

If the PKK is considered a terrorist group, simply because they embraced Marx for a few years (which is State Department shorthand for, I don't want to read anymore), then that bears some examination. Who didn't read Marx in the 60s? It's very possible that the Kurds have a legitimate reason to want to rule themselves, and are obviously capable of doing so because they are geographically isolated. They've always had to rule themselves.That's the first stage.

Just a quick note re: the part of your post that I highlighted. You may want to read up on the relative success of the largely self-governing Kurdish region of Iraq both during the period between the Gulf Wars, when the Kurds were somewhat protected by the no-fly zone imposed by the US and Britain, and since the overthrow of the Saddam regime. Again, my knowledge of the subject is not as up to date as it once was, but there was quite a bit written about Kurdish Iraq as a "success story".

7 albusteve  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 2:08:25pm

there is no room in the ME for the Kurds, there is no room in the ME for the Jews....millions and untold millions of people want them both to vanish

8 BishopX  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 2:48:36pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

I think the direction I'll go, first, is trying to understand who the Kurds are. There was a comment the other day about Israel's Lieberman saying that Israel could support the Kurds--and someone said that it's a bad idea, or an ironic moment, that Israel is supporting a terrorist group.

If the PKK is considered a terrorist group, simply because they embraced Marx for a few years (which is State Department shorthand for, I don't want to read anymore), then that bears some examination. Who didn't read Marx in the 60s? It's very possible that the Kurds have a legitimate reason to want to rule themselves, and are obviously capable of doing so because they are geographically isolated. They've always had to rule themselves.

That's the first stage.

There was a little bit more behind my comment that Liberman was being stupid. Lieberman was proposing to have Israeli officials meet with European leaders of the PKK to explore ways in which Israel could help the PKK.

The issue with this is that the PKK is a terrorist group according the pretty much everybody in the west. There may or may not be legitimate reasons for that designation (I lean towards there being legitimate reasons) but the fact remains that dealing with a "terrorist" group in a country which considers them a terrorist group is itself illegal. Having Israeli officials publicly meet with PKK representatives in the US or Europe would be an invitation to label Israel a state sponsor of terrorism. Can you imagine the glee in Iran and Syria at being able to press legal charges against Israel in European courts?

9 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 3:26:36pm

re: #6 sliv_the_eli

I think we'll get there when we look into the difference between a nationalist movement and a terrorist organization. I'm looking forward to it.

10 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 3:27:30pm

re: #7 albusteve

I know you're being sarcastic without the sarc tags. Noble effort. ;-)

11 Bob Levin  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 3:34:35pm

re: #8 BishopX

I know there was more to your comment, which is why I'm taking it very seriously. I'm not looking into this for pure enjoyment. And I'll appreciate your contributions to the discussion.

There may or may not be legitimate reasons for that designation (I lean towards there being legitimate reasons) but the fact remains that dealing with a "terrorist" group in a country which considers them a terrorist group is itself illegal.

This is the key. And I'm going to build to that question. We've really got to nail down the distinction between 'terrorist organization' and 'nationalist movement'. The reason is that a mistake at this point (and I believe the State Department is expert in making this mistake) ends up with someone supporting an oppressive tyranny, and standing with their hands in their pockets when the revolution comes.

But we'll get there.

12 garzooma  Mon, Sep 12, 2011 9:10:01pm

It's worth noting that Turkey has been persecuting a number of peoples during those 100 years, including Jews in Palestine:

Alexander Aaronsohn's account

These cruisers had already done wonderful rescue work for the Russian Jews in Palestine, who, when war was declared, were to have been sent to the Mesopotamian town of Urfa—there to suffer massacre and outrage like the Armenians. This was prevented by [US Ambassador] Mr. Morgenthau's strenuous representations, with the result that these Russian Jews were gathered together as in a great drag-net and herded to Jaffa, amidst suffering unspeakable. There they were met by the American cruisers which were to transport them to Egypt. Up to the very moment when they set foot on the friendly warships they were robbed and horribly abused by the Jaffa boatmen. The eternal curse of the Wandering Jew! Driven from Russia, they come to seek shelter in Turkey; Turkey then casts them from her under pretext that they are loyal to Russia.

13 Decatur Deb  Tue, Sep 13, 2011 6:14:28am

The mental gymnastics that turns terrorist organizations into 'nationalist groups' is not good exercise for people who are daily facing Hamas.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Once Praised, the Settlement to Help Sickened BP Oil Spill Workers Leaves Most With Nearly Nothing When a deadly explosion destroyed BP’s Deepwater Horizon drilling rig in the Gulf of Mexico, 134 million gallons of crude erupted into the sea over the next three months — and tens of thousands of ordinary people were hired ...
Cheechako
Yesterday
Views: 71 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 days ago
Views: 169 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1