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1 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 2:54:43pm

Is this more of an engineering challenge? In other words, if all of the technology is available to get this cleaned up, then I guess it would be a regulatory problem. If people just don't know enough to get this cleaned, I think it would be an engineering issue.

2 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 2:55:50pm

Until you have seen what an oil spill looks like, I think it is impossible to conceive of. This one I remember, swimming in the ocean, years later, over blackened sand.
Images link:
[Link: photos.orr.noaa.gov...]

3 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 2:58:54pm

re: #1 Bob Levin

Is this more of an engineering challenge? In other words, if all of the technology is available to get this cleaned up, then I guess it would be a regulatory problem. If people just don't know enough to get this cleaned, I think it would be an engineering issue.

If we just don't know enough to get this cleaned - and we clearly have not yet despite BP declaring victory - we should not drill for it in the first place. That would be common sense.

4 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 2:59:11pm

re: #2 Floral Giraffe

It is terrible. Like I said yesterday, I'm very optimistic that we will eventually stop using oil to provide power. I'm just curious if we know how to properly deal with these type of disasters.

5 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:00:41pm

re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote

Common sense was that we should have been dealing with new energy for the last 35 years. Now we're just doing Rube Goldberg patching.

6 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:01:44pm

re: #5 Bob Levin

Common sense was that we should have been dealing with new energy for the last 35 years. Now we're just doing Rube Goldberg patching.

And the reason we are is the bought and paid for politicians of both parties, but particularly the GOP.

7 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:07:17pm

re: #6 LudwigVanQuixote

It's definitely a good question to research. Is Congress the head and the science community the tail, or is it the other way around? One of my neighbors is always involved in those university contests, designing the most energy efficient, alternative energy houses--we've never had the conversation as to why the problem hasn't been solved yet. Ultimately, it can only go at the speed of science.

8 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:09:17pm

re: #4 Bob Levin

We do not. Cleaning oil of of living creatures, is laborious & mostly not successful, and we are only able to clean things like birds, that can be caught. Animals like sea urchins, anemones, shrimp, fish, etc. just die.
And the further up the food chain you go, once their food supply is gone, can not be fixed. It will take MANY years for the Gulf to heal. And even then, is it back to the way it was before the spill? Mother nature can repair a LOT of the damage we humans do, but not all of it.

Rant off now.

9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:18:12pm

re: #7 Bob Levin

It's definitely a good question to research. Is Congress the head and the science community the tail, or is it the other way around? One of my neighbors is always involved in those university contests, designing the most energy efficient, alternative energy houses--we've never had the conversation as to why the problem hasn't been solved yet. Ultimately, it can only go at the speed of science.

Well that is easy to answer. The technology to move to other forms of energy has existed for some time now and has been very successfully implemented in Denmark, Germany and Israel as examples.

For Example:

[Link: www.windpower.org...]
[Link: www.vindselskab.dk...]

The Danes have a multi billion Euro energy export industry from wind and derive over 25% of their power nationally from this ever renewing resource. The Germans hope to have 30% wind power for all of Germany, by 2020. They are currently at 21%

So why don't we do it? Consider this:

Rick Perry's Dirty Deals With Big Coal

10 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:22:38pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

T Boone Pickens wanted to set up an wind system throughout the Midwest. He was hoping for some government assistance with this project, or he wanted to partially finance it through debt. Then the housing bubble burst....

11 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 3:23:37pm

re: #9 LudwigVanQuixote

Also, Texas has its own electrical grid. For the rest of us...well, I don't know.

12 eightyfiv  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 5:33:06pm

That is actually surprising, to me. :P

Clearly, oil that agglomerates will not be degraded by bacteria at any reasonable pace, and if it sinks nor will it evaporate. But why did it agglomerate and sink (or the other way around)? How did it even get to be heavier than water in the first place? What's the other 83% of the "tar mats" that's not oil? Maybe we should've sprayed much more Corexit, not less?

So, yes, there's still oil out there. But at least there's a lot less than there was before. Also, I might venture to guess that when locked up in mats it doesn't cause nearly as much ecological harm as when free floating, coating and getting into everything. Eventually, it may end up buried in sediment, where we can cross our fingers and forget about it.

14 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:40:18pm

Ludwig, what are the health risks of wind farms, or is this a nontroversy? There is a huge wind farm in Canada just south of here on the way to Toronto, and it's alleged to be the source of mysterious rumbling noises like millions of Canadians farting all at once.

15 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:44:18pm

re: #13 Alouette

Canadian wind farm generates more complaints than power.

I appreciate you bringing this to my attention Alouette.

Honestly, it is just another ignorant variant of the power lines will kill you, your cell phone will cause cancer and the microwave will kill you too line of stupid people being scared of stupid things for no reason other than someone started a dumb rumor.

This is garbage from the moonbat end that has the same weight as anti-vaccination loons.

There is NO correlation between the noise of a wind turbine and human health issues. The article even goes into that. Unless you are right under them, they are vastly more quiet than background noise. They are certainly more quiet than a coal plant. They are certainly more quiet than a dam.

Fittingly enough I wrote something of a science troll hammer that relates just tonight:

Points 3,5 and 6 relate:

There is no data on the claim that the noise is bad for you. A study found no evidence of this being bad. No one has any substantive claim for showing it.

How to know when to see a red flag in Science.

16 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:45:05pm

re: #14 Alouette

This is bullshit. Also it is odd that you don't see this from lots of happy wind using Danes, Germans or Israelis.

17 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:46:50pm

re: #14 Alouette

Ohh and please see the new page.. It really does relate to all science discussions in the media. I worked hard on it and wrote it with someone like you, smart, but not scientific in mind.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

18 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:49:53pm

re: #16 LudwigVanQuixote

This is bullshit. Also it is odd that you don't see this from lots of happy wind using Danes, Germans or Israelis.

OK, thanks! I have passed this wind farm on the way to Toronto. It is a sight to see!

The "mysterious noise" that is rumbling through Windsor, Canada, is just plain old-fashioned industrial pollution from the Detroit side of the border.

19 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:51:35pm

After just a little bit of asking around:

Many power companies have green programs that are sometimes accompanied by subsidies--to have solar panel installed in homes, which pay for heating water or air conditioning. In the southwest, water problems aside, many homes have solar cells and end up with excess power, which they sell back to the grid. I asked how much solar electricity it would take to charge an electric car--no definitive answer on that.

But I expect that in five years we won't own any gasoline powered vehicles. I'll bet there's a big pool of folks who fit into that group.

This is probably the direction alternative energy will take in the US, a significant growth, but very quiet as individual households begin to make consumer choices. If the government wants to make a splash, then wind will be the way to go. Definitely momentum for this.

20 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 6:57:00pm

re: #19 Bob Levin

But I expect that in five years we won't own any gasoline powered vehicles. I'll bet there's a big pool of folks who fit into that group.

Really? FIVE years? There are plenty of people now who are driving 10-year-old cars because they can't afford a new vehicle. So what do they do, walk? Ride bikes?

21 Bob Levin  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 7:40:28pm

re: #20 Alouette

We're those people driving old cars. After all, there is no such thing as a new car, but there is such a thing as a new car payment.

So replacement is in the foreseeable future. Okay, ten years at the most. I'm almost certain that my kids will eventually have cars that do not require fossil fuels.

22 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:20:44pm

I googled for "Wind farms killing birds" to see what was out there.
I don't like the results, lead article was from an Energy development company, next one was from "treehuggers dot com".
I don't know what to believe on this subject, and do not see impartial information.

23 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:36:10pm

re: #22 Floral Giraffe

I googled for "Wind farms killing birds" to see what was out there.

Causes of Bird Mortality

Look at the chart and note how wind turbines compare to the number-one bird-killer, a much more mundane item of which I'm sure you (and most other people) have in your home :/

24 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:58:17pm

re: #22 Floral Giraffe

I googled for "Wind farms killing birds" to see what was out there.
I don't like the results, lead article was from an Energy development company, next one was from "treehuggers dot com".
I don't know what to believe on this subject, and do not see impartial information.

Yeah some dozens of birds get killed by wind farms. Millions get killed by crashing into cars and buildings each year.

25 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 8:59:09pm

re: #23 publicityStunted

Causes of Bird Mortality

Look at the chart and note how wind turbines compare to the number-one bird-killer, a much more mundane item of which I'm sure you (and most other people) have in your home :/

Beat me to it. Great post.

26 Interesting Times  Thu, Sep 22, 2011 9:11:46pm

re: #25 LudwigVanQuixote

Beat me to it. Great post.

I pick up great things from Margaret Atwood's Twitter feed :)

27 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 6:47:52am

As far as I am concerned the Dems are a huge (just less vocal) obstacle. Ignoring them is to ignore a very significant barrier to sustainable energy. Case in point Sen Harry Reid who personally rallied and focused opposition to Yucca Mountain as a nuclear waste storage facility.

The orchestrated catch 22 goes like this- Phase 1 "We can't have nuclear energy until we have a plan and a place for the waste." Phase 2-Oppose any and all storage facilities. Of course left of center opposition to nuclear energy is one of their proudest planks in the platform.

Essentially we have the parties unified in deranged opposition. Solar ain't gonna do it alone. We can not afford to ignore the problem on the left side any more than we can on the right.

28 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 6:51:09am

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

Oppose any and all storage facilities.

Yes, because all propositions, Yucca included, are insane since they treat what can only be judged as temporary as some sort of infinite solution.

Essentially we have the parties unified in deranged opposition. Solar ain't gonna do it alone. We can not afford to ignore the problem on the left side any more than we can on the right.

Essentially, you are waving your magical balance fairy stick to cover the debate in a bunch of lies. Apparently, deception is what we can afford. Well done!

And this while Japan is still being contaminated by Fukushima. Awesome.

29 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:41:19am

re: #28 000G

Pointing out additional opposition is magical balance fairy? No wonder you can only see one side of this. There is no deception is what I posted. Sure lets ignore the successes on nuclear energy, and pretend Fukushima is the only salient example to use.

Do we have a word for magical imbalance posting?

30 Daniel Ballard  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 9:46:39am

re: #24 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah some dozens of birds get killed by wind farms. Millions get killed by crashing into cars and buildings each year.

The point I have seen is they are hard on birds migrating that are threatened. I don't believe that for a second. Opposition to everything but solar is out there in force. Even solar farms get opposed. It seems advocates will leave AGW in place to help their beloved species of endangered critters. As if they were immune from AGW or something. It's just ignorant.

31 garhighway  Fri, Sep 23, 2011 3:27:02pm

re: #27 Rightwingconspirator

As far as I am concerned the Dems are a huge (just less vocal) obstacle. Ignoring them is to ignore a very significant barrier to sustainable energy. Case in point Sen Harry Reid who personally rallied and focused opposition to Yucca Mountain as a nuclear waste storage facility.

The orchestrated catch 22 goes like this- Phase 1 "We can't have nuclear energy until we have a plan and a place for the waste." Phase 2-Oppose any and all storage facilities. Of course left of center opposition to nuclear energy is one of their proudest planks in the platform.

Essentially we have the parties unified in deranged opposition. Solar ain't gonna do it alone. We can not afford to ignore the problem on the left side any more than we can on the right.

Reid wasn't opposing Yucca as a Dem, that was a NIMBY play.

As a "left of center" person, I can say that opposition to nuclear is not part of my worldview. I get that we will have to make some hard choices regarding energy use and production. If we need nuclear as part of a national response to AGW, I can be sold on that.

Of course, given the right's religious objections to recognizing that AGW exists and needs to be responded to, I am not sure how likely such responses are. (I say the right's objections are religious since they are not reality-based.)

32 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:14:34am

re: #29 Rightwingconspirator

There is no deception is what I posted.

Yes, there is, because you omit the obvious and unsolvable problem to nuclear waste storage: half-life!

Sure lets ignore the successes on nuclear energy, and pretend Fukushima is the only salient example to use.

I have another one for you: Cernobyl.

Also: Successes? The industry is massively corrupt, depends completely on subsidies to be "profitable" and has a really bad carbon footprint overall.

33 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sat, Sep 24, 2011 12:19:23am

re: #32 000G

I have another one for you: Cernobyl.

Oh, and here are a couple of more: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or just the US: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]


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