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1 EiMitch  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 12:13:03pm

So, I'm no longer as evil as the Tea Parties? Really?! You gotta be effing with me.

So, the public is beginning to learn that not believing isn't the same as being amoral? That you don't need to believe in heaven or hell or that we're descended from the very first golem (Adam was supposedly made from earth) to believe in right and wrong?

That maybe, just maybe, a book written by human hands, repeatedly translated and otherwise edited by human hands over the course of thousands of years, and promoted by humans to be the infallible word of god, just might simply be mythic story telling after all? That if Jesus told parables, stories made-up to convey some kind or moral lesson, then perhaps some other Jews could've been doing the same thing thousands of years sooner?

It really took my country this freaking long to just barely start to turn around?

Not that I expect everyone, or even a majority, to suddenly turn into non-believers. But dammit, how can it be this hard to understand that disagreeing on metaphysical views doesn't turn someone into a serial-rapist-murderer? I mean, really! Come on.

2 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 2:40:51pm

I had no idea you guys were at the top of a "Most Hated" list. O_o

3 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 2:56:17pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I was at a family gathering recently and talking with the husband of a cousin, both of whom are 'Good Christians.' The conversation finished with this piece of dialog.

CH: I look at things from a Christian point of view.

Me: I look at things from a agnostic point of view.

CH: You know, Christians used to kill people like you.

Oh yes. Those who don't 'properly believe' are deeply hated.

4 CuriousLurker  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 3:07:55pm

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

Good grief!

5 nines09  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 5:02:08pm

I just think they are a bad science project gone wrong. Feed group A1 shit and feed group A2 truth and one should do better. Group A1 just hasn't woke up to the fact they were fed shit, and now they talk shit, walk shit and are shit. Hell,they love shit. Just look at what they embrace listen to and espouse. Pure Shit.

6 mr.fusion  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 5:12:16pm

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

I was at a family gathering recently and talking with the husband of a cousin, both of whom are 'Good Christians.' The conversation finished with this piece of dialog.

CH: I look at things from a Christian point of view.

Me: I look at things from a agnostic point of view.

CH: You know, Christians used to kill people like you.

Oh yes. Those who don't 'properly believe' are deeply hated.

The reply next time: Are you sure they were Christians?

7 dragonfire1981  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 6:06:12pm

The Tea Partiers will of course wear this as a badge of honor.

8 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 7:57:32pm

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I had no idea you guys were at the top of a "Most Hated" list. O_o

Lol me neither. /chiming in

9 Tigger2  Thu, Sep 29, 2011 8:20:27pm

re: #3 Romantic Heretic

I was at a family gathering recently and talking with the husband of a cousin, both of whom are 'Good Christians.' The conversation finished with this piece of dialog.

CH: I look at things from a Christian point of view.

Me: I look at things from a agnostic point of view.

CH: You know, Christians used to kill people like you.

Oh yes. Those who don't 'properly believe' are deeply hated.

What's his point ,Christians used to be killed for their point of view, the world keeps evolving.

10 Obdicut  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 3:50:16am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I had no idea you guys were at the top of a "Most Hated" list. O_o

It's easy to forget, since athiests don't tend to have any recognizable groups.

It's easier if you live in a big city, but there are definitely times where me being an atheist meant I was discriminated against, including not getting hired for a job.

That was back before i knew questions about religion were verboten.

11 Randall Gross  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 4:57:06am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I had no idea you guys were at the top of a "Most Hated" list. O_o

Atheists have always been an extremely small, and widely hated minority in this country. A gay person & a muslim would both be elected president before an Atheist is.

12 CuriousLurker  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 8:31:48am

re: #10 Obdicut

I have no doubt whatsoever that you've faced discrimination, I guess I just have a hard time understanding why.

For example, if there were a large group of atheists actively working to gain political power in order to outlaw my religion and impose their unbelief on me, then, yeah, I'd have a big problem with them. AFAIK, most American atheists push for the opposite (i.e. sticking to the Establishment Clause), though I suppose there are also extremists amongst them, as with any other group.

Likewise, since I generally try to be civil and not push my beliefs on anyone, if an atheist gets up in my face and starts sneering at or insulting me for having said beliefs, then I have a problem with that individual (though it's more for him being an asshole than for his atheism). Otherwise, live & let live—it's no skin off my back if someone's not a believer. *shrug*

13 CuriousLurker  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 8:32:33am

re: #11 Thanos

Atheists have always been an extremely small, and widely hated minority in this country. A gay person & a muslim would both be elected president before an Atheist is.

I remember seeing a poll about that, maybe from Pew? I was surprised.

I guess it mostly has to do with how you're raised. My dad was agnostic and in our house his word was law, so even though my mom was a devout Catholic, religion wasn't a huge part of my upbringing. As a matter of fact, I was supposed to be baptized as an infant, but when my dad learned that one of the requirements was that I be raised Catholic, he quashed that. He insisted that I be free to choose whatever I wanted when I came of age (though I'm sure he had no idea where I'd end up, heh).

Anyway, as I was saying, religion wasn't a big deal in our house, so no one ever taught us to hate based on religion (or lack thereof). What we were taught to despise were things like deceit, stealing, injustice, etc. regardless of who was doing them.

With that upbringing, my mom's later plunge into the extreme "charismatic" Christian world was a complete turn-off for me. The intolerance, emotionality, and shove-it-down-your-throat evangelism of her group quickly convinced me that any form of zealotry—religious or otherwise—was something to be avoided at all costs.

14 Obdicut  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 8:40:01am

re: #12 CuriousLurker

I have no doubt whatsoever that you've faced discrimination, I guess I just have a hard time understanding why.

It's an interesting form of bigotry. Most often it takes the small flavor of just 'you're not like us', that they seem to see me as crippled somehow, cut off from some sense that they share. It's kind of funny, given how many people inside a faith are just going along with the flow, not really thinking about their religion-- it's not really religion for them, just a social in-group.

Sometimes you get the real haters, the ones who think atheists really do all darkly hate religion and work towards its downfall, or that we simply represent a sinful state on our own. In that, it's most similar to hating gay people.

Likewise, since I generally try to be civil and not push my beliefs on anyone, if an atheist gets up in my face and starts sneering at or insulting me for having said beliefs, then I have a problem with that individual (though it's more for him being an asshole than for his atheism).

I never engage in any unprompted discussion of religion. I view religion as an aspect of human thought-- obviously, since it isn't mystical to me. So it's just like a belief in love, justice, or any other abstraction, except the person calls this one 'god' or 'god's will' or 'what pleases the mother' or what have you. It's all the same to me. But I can judge them by the aspects of that religion just like I can judge someone by the aspects of their purely secular philosophy. I'll take a sweet, gay-friendly Lutheran philosophy of brotherhood and humility as an ally and friend long before I'll take a Randian atheist, hating religion as an oppressive force, denying human nature.

And there are a large number of religious people who think that simply me uttering "I do not believe your religion is true," is, at best, rude, and at worst, evil. Those people cause quite a lot of problems.

15 CuriousLurker  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 10:05:15am

re: #14 Obdicut

And there are a large number of religious people who think that simply me uttering "I do not believe your religion is true," is, at best, rude, and at worst, evil. Those people cause quite a lot of problems.

This. I think it has a lot to do with their personality, their psychological makeup. I experienced similar reactions when I converted to Islam—they ran the gamut from immediate acceptance & well wishes to indifference, puzzlement, suspicion, and even outright hostility: "Oh, so you're one of them now." Um, no? I don't even know what that means—I'm still the same person you knew last week, the same person I've always been. WTF?

My mom, who had by that time returned to traditional Catholicism, at first seemed to take it as a personal affront, a rejection of her on some fundamental level. I found that puzzling. Why, if her faith was so strong, would she feel so threatened by me choosing a different one? I'm pretty sure it had nothing to do with concern for my salvation since it seems (to me) that such a concern wouldn't/shouldn't manifest as hostility. That would be just weird.

Anyway, she eventually learned to accept it once it became clear I wasn't going to change my mind. Well, maybe not accept it so much as ignore it (we simply stopped talking about anything to do with religion).

My grandmother, also a devout Catholic, had no trouble whatsoever with accepting it. It went like this:

Grandma: So, you're Muslim now, like the Arabs?
Me: Yes, grandma. [I wasn't going to try to explain it wasn't just Arabs.]
Grandma: Do you still believe in God?
Me: Yes.
Grandma: Okay, that's all I need to know. [Followed by hugs & kisses.]

Gotta love grandmas. ;o)

16 Obdicut  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 10:09:31am

re: #15 CuriousLurker

Heh. But even there, you can see the answer that would have actually caused your gramma pain: No, gramma, I'm an atheist.

That's a lot of the pain for many atheists, how much distress it causes their family. There's a lot of silent atheists for that reason alone.

17 CuriousLurker  Fri, Sep 30, 2011 10:28:43am

re: #16 Obdicut

True. Good point.

I know I've said this before, but I'll say it again: I really appreciate the way you handle talking about religion. You've never once made me that you were belittling or insulting me for being a believer. Neither has Thanos or a number of other atheists here. That matters quite a lot and has even helped me clarify my thinking about my own religion as well as that of others.

Had you guys gone on the attack, that never could've happened as I would've gotten pissed and started rejecting anything & everything you had to say purely out of resentment. That may not be rational, but it's human and it's the truth.

18 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 11:11:32am

I think there are two aspects to anti-atheist bigotry. Both express themselves socially but have different roots.

The first one is what you could call epistemic: Religious people believe what they believe to be true, and what they believe they believe to make up the ultimative fundaments of reality. To them, adherents of other religions appear as misguided or having a misunderstanding about the actual specifics (in degrees and gradations and relative: e.g. to some, polytheists are worse than different monotheists, to others, people who believe in substances are worse than deists), but atheists appear as being in complete denial of reality – to them, atheists look like what AGW deniers would look like to today's average lizard. I think the essential problem here is one of not accepting epistemic pluralism (which is in and of itself a denial of reality, btw, and as Obdicut pointed out above when refering to Randians, even one atheists can be guilty of).

The second one is one of self-confidence. It is related to the epistemic one, because for it to come into play, one has to believe in the ultimative truth of one's religious beliefs. Once that is settled as a personal judgement, the normative aspects of that specific set of beliefs take hold and motivate to act. Religion is a big source of motivation to affect the world, as it asserts not only providing an ultimative account of reality (what is the case) but also what to do about it (what ought to be done). Religions tells man how he should behave by incorporating and cultivating moral traditions (sometimes even ethical ones). One of the most basic ones that itself is predicated on the soteriological aspects of religion (basically in the form of: "the set of beliefs are not only good and right for its adherents but would also be good for people not [yet] adhering") is the precept to spread the truth, i.e. to proselytize (I could go into the religions which do not do this, but that would be too long of a side issue). In rejecting all efforts from all fronts to help or save him, the atheist, by virtue of rejecting all religion, produces the most amount of frustration in those who strive to increase the numbers of adherents to their particular religion. More concretely, passionate beliefers are so self-identified with their respective beliefs that having those beliefs rejected despite personal efforts on their part to maintain and spread them to them feels like the atheist rejected them personally. It's a huge blow to what they made out to be the meaning of their lifes.

19 windsagio  Sun, Oct 2, 2011 11:13:03am

Nobody loves talking about how hated they are as an internet atheist.

More discriminated against than muslims!!!


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