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1 Daniel Ballard  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 2:22:02pm

I'll dig into the article. I'm curious what the budgets per student are like, for comparisons sake. is it money that is short? Maybe good teachers are hard to attract to small towns? Speculating.

2 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 2:38:05pm

re: #1 Rightwingconspirator

I'll dig into the article. I'm curious what the budgets per student are like, for comparisons sake. is it money that is short? Maybe good teachers are hard to attract to small towns? Speculating.

Per pupil spending

Tuition and fees for my daughter in grammar school, about $5,000 to $6,000 per year.

Tuition and fees for my daughter's HS - about $9,000 to $10,000 per year.

LSU full-time per semester tuition (in-state) - about $3,200 (or $6,400 a year). My daughter has a couple of scholarshipsat fully cover her tuition and fees; which is why we can fund her living in an apartment, costs us about $12,000 a year; so her college is costing us just a bit more than her HS tuition. We hope to get her through with her undergrad degree with NO STUDENT LOANS.

And for anybody wanting to holler about "the rich" and their private school tuition - we are not rich, we have sacrificed and struggled to do this, it was important to us. I'm just so thankful we could give her a genuine educational opportunity, rather than relying on the public schools. It's devastating, the shape our public schools are in.

3 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 2:39:34pm

re: #2 reine.de.tout

Per pupil spending

Tuition and fees for my daughter in grammar school, about $5,000 to $6,000 per year.

Tuition and fees for my daughter's HS - about $9,000 to $10,000 per year.

LSU full-time per semester tuition (in-state) - about $3,200 (or $6,400 a year). My daughter has a couple of scholarshipsat fully cover her tuition and fees; which is why we can fund her living in an apartment, costs us about $12,000 a year; so her college is costing us just a bit more than her HS tuition. We hope to get her through with her undergrad degree with NO STUDENT LOANS.

And for anybody wanting to holler about "the rich" and their private school tuition - we are not rich, we have sacrificed and struggled to do this, it was important to us. I'm just so thankful we could give her a genuine educational opportunity, rather than relying on the public schools. It's devastating, the shape our public schools are in.

From the link I gave you:

For example, the report states that the average per pupil expenditure in Louisiana is above the national average (adjusted for regional cost differences and weighted for student needs). However, when individual districts are considered, only 28 percent of Louisiana districts are above the national average.

4 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 2:45:08pm

I'm curious, reine, about the socioeconomic status of the various schools. Are the ones scoring lowest also in the poorest neighborhoods where parents likely are uneducated themselves? Is there are high population of second language students?

5 researchok  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 2:56:00pm

A little more time on the three R's and a little less time on creationism would go a ways in improving test scores.

It isn't the entire answer, but a syllabus that includes creationism shortchanges the kids in science, for sure.

6 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:02:04pm

re: #4 Sionainn

The problems of all schools in the US are so much deeper than that. I've been fighting the inertia of the schools since my kids started, and had another issue just this week. Like so many institutions in the US, the system is so broken that fixing the system might include the services of a wrecking ball. It's that bad.

7 lostlakehiker  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:06:08pm

I'll speculate too. You will find that the budgets per student are not out of line with what other poor states, e.g. NM, AR, AL, SD are spending.

You will find, going to the NAEP site, that Louisiana schools are, however bad they may be, at any rate better than those of California. [8th grade math would be fairest, as least likely to be skewed by the results of immigrants with limited command of English].

You will find that Texas schools do quite a bit better than Lousiana's, and better by a yet wider margin than California's.

8 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:08:03pm

re: #5 researchok

A little more time on the three R's and a little less time on creationism would go a ways in improving test scores.

It isn't the entire answer, but a syllabus that includes creationism shortchanges the kids in science, for sure.

No doubt about it.
However, this measured overall performance, not just science performance. This measured everything. The kids in these failing schools are getting nothing useful at all.

I have a friend who teaches 6th grade English; first week of class, she had her students write an autobiographical paragraph about themselves. Here's a sample:

Awards fourth Grade it’s six Awards, one was for best condup, twost for A.B. own roll. Three the best stutend of the mouth.

When the ringer ranged we went to our third teacher.

I saw my mom crying white up against the wall.

My act was better than everbodies there acts was kind of lame.

The Day We Got Are Dog

...all the way to batin rouge... wene it started to rain.

Let's start with the appliances. The table is a wooden glass.

I think that singing is much more harder than dancing or dancing is much more harder than singing.

9 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:10:28pm

re: #4 Sionainn

I'm curious, reine, about the socioeconomic status of the various schools. Are the ones scoring lowest also in the poorest neighborhoods where parents likely are uneducated themselves? Is there are high population of second language students?

Not a high population of 2nd language students at all, in Louisiana.
The ones scoring lowest are NOT necessarily in the poorest neighborhoods.

However, I suspect that in many cases, the parents are indeed likely uneducated, themselves. That said, what does it matter? At what point does that cycle end and we begin to educate? Children from poor neighborhoods, or children with uneducated parents are NOT uneducable, not one bit. Why do we accept that as an "excuse"?

10 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:15:24pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

The problems of all schools in the US are so much deeper than that. ...

Absolutely.

And I refuse to accept as an excuse the socio-economic or education status of the parents. That plays into it, of course, in that there are those parents who see no value in education. But that isn't a huge percentage; most parents, even those who are uneducated themselves, recognize the value of education.

So where are the problems? I don't know. It isn't the teachers; the private schools here hire their teachers from the same group of qualified applicants that the public schools do.

What's the difference? I know one difference is discipline in the classroom, where private school teachers are more likely to be supported by school officials, than public school teachers are.

11 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:29:25pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

Have you looked at Finland's system at all? I think we can learn a lot from it.

12 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:31:19pm

re: #11 Obdicut

Have you looked at Finland's system at all? I think we can learn a lot from it.

No, I haven't - this hasn't been a topic on my radar, except as it applies locally here and I'm not involved in local public school "stuff" (nor do I have any expertise whatsoever in this issue), except as an interested taxpayer, I would dearly love to see value for the money being spent.

13 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:40:59pm

re: #12 reine.de.tout

[Link: www.openeducation.net...]

14 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:53:20pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

Well, aside from the wrecking ball--the oh so tempting wrecking ball--we need vocational schools, and lots of them. My dad had the option of going to one, my grandfather talked him out of it. But many years later my dad regretted not going to vocational school. He loved to work with his hands. Eventually, he became an electrician, at 40. But he wanted to go that route since he was a teenager. I think there are many children like that.

I think that Death of a Salesman signaled that our culture was beginning to bend in the wrong direction, where the dignity of labor was demeaned in favor of keeping up with the Joneses. And we all Jones for external signs of success. We have an almost primitive notion of our internal life. All of this goes into our school curriculum. All of this slowly seeps into our kids' minds and overwhelms what they really want to do.

Kids show it as soon as they are born. They show it from their first toys, they are getting down to business. They learn at a remarkable rate. And then it all stops as soon as they get to school.

I'll leave it there as I could go on and on about this. I'm going to read Obdicut's link.

15 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:55:42pm

re: #14 Bob Levin

Well, aside from the wrecking ball--the oh so tempting wrecking ball--we need vocational schools, and lots of them. My dad had the option of going to one, my grandfather talked him out of it. But many years later my dad regretted not going to vocational school. He loved to work with his hands. Eventually, he became an electrician, at 40. But he wanted to go that route since he was a teenager. I think there are many children like that.

I think that Death of a Salesman signaled that our culture was beginning to bend in the wrong direction, where the dignity of labor was demeaned in favor of keeping up with the Joneses. And we all Jones for external signs of success. We have an almost primitive notion of our internal life. All of this goes into our school curriculum. All of this slowly seeps into our kids' minds and overwhelms what they really want to do.

Kids show it as soon as they are born. They show it from their first toys, they are getting down to business. They learn at a remarkable rate. And then it all stops as soon as they get to school.

I'll leave it there as I could go on and on about this. I'm going to read Obdicut's link.

I agree with everything you just said. And I see Obdicut has posted a link; I'll check it out as well.

16 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 3:58:00pm

re: #13 Obdicut

My god that was a brilliant article.

17 ProGunLiberal  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:05:28pm

re: #16 Bob Levin

I see three reforms that should be put onto the US.

18 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:07:58pm

re: #13 Obdicut

[Link: www.openeducation.net...]

Interesting:

It is interesting to note that one of the most notable attributes of Finnish children is their level of personal responsibility. The early focus on self-reflection is seen as a key component for developing that level of responsibility towards learning.

And here is where the difference lies, IMO, between most students in the public school system, and students whose parents do whatever they can to send them to a private school. The "private school parents" have an incentive to require their kids to be personally responsible, because the parents are sacrificing much, in many cases, to pay that tuition.

The second item goes along with what Bob Levin was saying:

While there is little grading and in essence no tracking in Finland, ninth grade does become a divider for Finnish students. Students are separated for the last three years of high school based on grades. Under the current structure, 53% will go to academic high school and the rest enter vocational school.

Using that format, Finland has an overall high-school dropout rate of about 4%. Even at the vocational schools the rate of 10% pummels America’s 25% high school drop out rate.

There is no silly “college for all” mantra and there certainly isn’t a push to have all students sit through a trigonometry class if that is not relevant to the student.

Another interesting thing my daughter's private school did was have 3 "tracks" - the honors/advanced placement; the regular college prep; and then a track for those who were not planning to attend college but planned to go to vocational school or whatever after HS.

The third item:

Whereas higher education in Finland levels the socioeconomic playing field, higher education in America currently exacerbates existing social disparities and inequalities. In America, a parent’s income becomes a key component of the higher education process.

This is halfway true. For folks in a state like Louisiana, college tuition at a state university is affordable. I gave you LSU's per-semester tuition above (about $3200 per semester). That is for LSU in Baton Rouge, which is the MOST expensive of the colleges in the LSU system. Students with acceptable grade-point averages (not sure what the low end is on that - 2.8 or 3.0) can get their tuition covered through the State's "TOPS" program, where the state pays the student's tuition as long as they maintain their GPA. So the students here who want to go to college, who make the grades needed to imply serious study and who can maintain those study habits, can go to college for nothing but a few non-covered fees and their book costs.

19 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:12:18pm

The "wrecking ball" is a fallacy. Top-down approaches that fire the administrators, dump the teachers and institute yet more and more unproven methods to train children to take standardized tests are going to be the death of education in this country.

Schools used to be an extension of the community. In mnay cases, that is over.

If you want schools to work, the community has to be invested in the school and participate in it. Many African Americans insist they had a better education under segregation then what their kids got when schools desegregated. Wanna know why?

Black schools acted holistically with the churches, parents and community leaders. Teachers acted with authority and reinforced community values in addition to teaching academics. That ended when desegregation finally went through here in NC in 1971. Black administrators and teachers were all fired. All of them (it took a generation for black teachers and administrators to start showing back up in Southern schools). Black students went to classes under white administrators who did not care about them, and half of the white classmates fled to "segregation acadamies", which were private all-white schools. The link of school to community was broken, and it has never really recovered. It didn't have to happen that way, but it did.

By the by, I am taking an upper division class on public schools and public policy this semester. I learned real quick that "failing" scores reported by states are cooked just as much for political reasons as "passing" scores are. It all depends on whether the governor and legislature want to hide something... or want to break the public schools so their cronies can get public money in the charter schools.

20 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:13:50pm

Obdi, LOL.
The comments at that article run the full gamut from the ridiculous racial comparisons of IQ, to the white racist power structure keeping people down ("maybe the problem is not race or culture, but a racist society that propagates a white power structure").

21 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:16:24pm

re: #19 celticdragon

You have, I think, a valid point about communities being invested in their local schools. I served once as a judge at a HS FBLA conference; and without exception, the kids from the small towns, where there was but ONE SCHOOL that everybody rallied around, did a heckuva lot better in this particular competition than the kids from the larger cities who were being shuttled all the way across town to go to school.

22 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:22:19pm

re: #20 reine.de.tout

I kept to my sanity-retaining policy of not reading the comments.

23 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:31:31pm

re: #22 Obdicut

I kept to my sanity-retaining policy of not reading the comments.

Good plan.

24 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:32:24pm

re: #22 Obdicut

I kept to my sanity-retaining policy of not reading the comments.

And oh, thanks for that link, very interesting article.

25 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:36:25pm

re: #19 celticdragon

Top-down approaches that fire the administrators, dump the teachers and institute yet more and more unproven methods to train children to take standardized tests are going to be the death of education in this country.

That's a wrecking ball? Small wrecking ball. I mean start over, from scratch. I'm not advocating this, just saying that things are so bad, the shortest distance to a fix might include that.

If you want schools to work, the community has to be invested in the school and participate in it. Many African Americans insist they had a better education under segregation then what their kids got when schools desegregated. Wanna know why?

I know why. It's because when the teacher gave an assignment, they expected it to be done correctly. No grade inflation. Also, grades are now tallied by computer programs, objective, no favoritism. I'll bet you 10 bucks that if a kid showed real improvement from the first day of class to the last, they would do well. Not anymore. It's all averaged in. And so we get average students doing average assignments. No sense of skill building.

But the problems are so much deeper. *patting the wrecking ball*

26 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 4:58:15pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

The problems of all schools in the US are so much deeper than that. I've been fighting the inertia of the schools since my kids started, and had another issue just this week. Like so many institutions in the US, the system is so broken that fixing the system might include the services of a wrecking ball. It's that bad.

What kind of problems are you having?

27 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 5:05:51pm

re: #9 reine.de.tout

Not a high population of 2nd language students at all, in Louisiana.
The ones scoring lowest are NOT necessarily in the poorest neighborhoods.

However, I suspect that in many cases, the parents are indeed likely uneducated, themselves. That said, what does it matter? At what point does that cycle end and we begin to educate? Children from poor neighborhoods, or children with uneducated parents are NOT uneducable, not one bit. Why do we accept that as an "excuse"?

Having taught in schools with predominantly second language students in very poor neighborhoods, I certainly didn't think those kids were "uneducable," far from it. That being said, the students did come to school with a lot of baggage that teachers had to deal with - students who lived in homes with multiple families so there was no quiet place to do homework, let alone a bed to sleep in; students who hadn't been read to or really talked to much about the world around them; students whose parents didn't know how to help their child because they weren't very well-educated themselves; kids who lived in a violent household, etc., etc., etc. They started school already lacking in basic skills and teachers do their best to bring them up to speed...at least I know I did as well as my fellow teachers. I don't consider that an excuse, but simply a fact.

28 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 5:19:06pm

re: #26 Sionainn

Hmmm. How to explain this in vague terms and still get the point across.

Well, one of the issues with institutions or professions is that the representative (teacher, therapist, doctor, lawyer) must understand that their real client is the profession itself, not the student, patient, client.

If you want to be part of these professions, you have to understand that concept or you will be in deep trouble. That's why it is rare to the point of never, to hear of a teacher completely releasing the student from the curriculum to pursue the course on their own. You rarely hear of doctors recommending to patients that an acupuncturist might be a better idea. I remember getting in a huge amount of trouble when I was a therapist working for an agency, after I recommended a patient take up Yoga to relieve stress rather than explore the inner psycho-dynamics of his tension.

So, the school tends to view my kids as servants to their curriculum, or in the case of the magnet school, servants to their productions to justify its existence in the coming fiscal year. My kids' interests and talents be damned. Combine this with the watering down of content to the point of having the students be completely unprepared for college...wrecking ball (poetic expression of my feelings).

re: #27 Sionainn

That's another set of problems. And that's why pulling the thread of the problems with the school system quickly leads to the need for wholesale changes to the society. Deep problems.

29 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 5:26:28pm

re: #28 Bob Levin

Hmmm. How to explain this in vague terms and still get the point across.

Well, one of the issues with institutions or professions is that the representative (teacher, therapist, doctor, lawyer) must understand that their real client is the profession itself, not the student, patient, client.

If you want to be part of these professions, you have to understand that concept or you will be in deep trouble. That's why it is rare to the point of never, to hear of a teacher completely releasing the student from the curriculum to pursue the course on their own. You rarely hear of doctors recommending to patients that an acupuncturist might be a better idea. I remember getting in a huge amount of trouble when I was a therapist working for an agency, after I recommended a patient take up Yoga to relieve stress rather than explore the inner psycho-dynamics of his tension.

So, the school tends to view my kids as servants to their curriculum, or in the case of the magnet school, servants to their productions to justify its existence in the coming fiscal year. My kids' interests and talents be damned. Combine this with the watering down of content to the point of having the students be completely unprepared for college...wrecking ball (poetic expression of my feelings).

re: #27 Sionainn

That's another set of problems. And that's why pulling the thread of the problems with the school system quickly leads to the need for wholesale changes to the society. Deep problems.

I get what you are saying. I quit teaching when I had my kids and am now dealing with a child in first grade in a magnet school. I'm watching very closely and am very active in her education. If she isn't getting what she needs, I talk to the teacher, make suggestions, provide appropriate materials, and I also supplement with our own thing at home. The teachers are either going to love me or hate me...I don't really care just as long as my child receives an excellent education.

30 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 5:57:43pm

re: #29 Sionainn

I call that semi-homeschooling. It's gets harder the older they get, more homework, more extracurricular demands. You end up spending quite a bit of time waiting for your ten minutes of teachable moments, which cannot be scheduled.

31 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 6:24:41pm

re: #27 Sionainn

Having taught in schools with predominantly second language students in very poor neighborhoods, I certainly didn't think those kids were "uneducable," far from it. That being said, the students did come to school with a lot of baggage that teachers had to deal with - students who lived in homes with multiple families so there was no quiet place to do homework, let alone a bed to sleep in; students who hadn't been read to or really talked to much about the world around them; students whose parents didn't know how to help their child because they weren't very well-educated themselves; kids who lived in a violent household, etc., etc., etc. They started school already lacking in basic skills and teachers do their best to bring them up to speed...at least I know I did as well as my fellow teachers. I don't consider that an excuse, but simply a fact.

Yes, the facts of those circumstance certainly DO apply to some students - but surely not close to half?

32 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 6:31:50pm

re: #30 Bob Levin

I call that semi-homeschooling. It's gets harder the older they get, more homework, more extracurricular demands. You end up spending quite a bit of time waiting for your ten minutes of teachable moments, which cannot be scheduled.

Going back to Obdi's article and the personal responsibility of the kids - one thing my daughter always knew was that she was to get her projects and her homework done; we would provide assistance in the form of materials, a place to spread out as much as she needed/wanted when doing her homework (I didn't have a dining room for 18 years, it became her homework room, plenty of space) - and we would call out the questions for practice tests, or flash the flashcards (though she learned to use powerpoint as her "flashcard" system, which worked well as the typing of the questions and answers was a form of study).

It was a combination of our expectations and her own determination to do things herself, but we never had to follow-up to see if homework was done, and it was rare that we had to spend more than 10 or 15 minutes helping her. These habits have stayed with her, and she has done very very well in her college studies, all on her own. Very well.

33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 6:46:17pm

Eh, that's what Louisiana segregation academies are for.

/

34 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 7:11:49pm

I've said everything I wish to say in the fact that I homeschool my kids.

35 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 7:22:06pm

re: #33 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Eh, that's what Louisiana segregation academies are for.

/

I don't know about those, because I never attended one and my kid's Catholic schools were not segregated.

Whether they exist or not or however many people send their kids to a "segregation academy", it is, in my mind, CRIMINAL that we are failing to educate the children of this state. We are failing them in a big way.


re: #34 EmmmieG

I've said everything I wish to say in the fact that I homeschool my kids.

Careful - OhCrap may accuse you of operating a segregation academy.
/

36 Bob Levin  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 7:58:35pm

re: #32 reine.de.tout

Right. This is sort of the scam of semi-home schooling. The kids have to get their schoolwork in on time, and if you have the luxury of requiring good grades, that too. But they have to understand that prompt homework and good grades does not mean that they are actually learning something of substance.

The school does not teach them what they need to know for college. AP History teaches them the amount of work required in a college class, but they don't learn how to do history. That's where the James Burke DVDs come in.

Have you ever had a learning experience when you feel this new bit of knowledge actually change you? Well, they never feel that in school. It happens plenty of times in life if you're open to it. And that's part of the semi-homeschooling gig, to teach them what real learning feels like. It's not just dead memorization.

37 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 8:02:45pm

re: #36 Bob Levin

Right. This is sort of the scam of semi-home schooling. The kids have to get their schoolwork in on time, and if you have the luxury of requiring good grades, that too. But they have to understand that prompt homework and good grades does not mean that they are actually learning something of substance.

The school does not teach them what they need to know for college. AP History teaches them the amount of work required in a college class, but they don't learn how to do history. That's where the James Burke DVDs come in.

Have you ever had a learning experience when you feel this new bit of knowledge actually change you? Well, they never feel that in school. It happens plenty of times in life if you're open to it. And that's part of the semi-homeschooling gig, to teach them what real learning feels like. It's not just dead memorization.

We were quite fortunate that our daughter's HS had some most excellent teachers. One science teacher was retired from NASA - her passion for science developed in his class. Her physics teacher at one time taught at college, but he didn't like it - he preferred teaching at the HS level, and so that's what he did. He was superb; and he was not easy on those kids.

38 Sionainn  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 8:15:58pm

re: #31 reine.de.tout

Yes, the facts of those circumstance certainly DO apply to some students - but surely not close to half?

In some schools, I'd say yes, it is. Each year, I had about 20-24 kids in my classroom. Each year, I'd have about 2 parents show up for open house. I had to track down parents to do parent/teacher conferences. I gave the students opportunities to improve their grades (as well as actually learn the skill instead of just giving a bad grade) by having them redo papers where they got the answers wrong, and very few had parents who would make sure they did so. I had a large number of students who didn't do the homework or would only do part of it. Over half never did the reading portion of the homework. That was in early elementary school when parents are most likely to take part in their child's education. Parental involvement seems to go down with each year the child is in school. It's not surprise to me that some schools are failing. It really does take the parents and the community for a school to be a success.

39 reine.de.tout  Wed, Oct 5, 2011 8:34:28pm

re: #38 Sionainn

I don't disagree with you that parental involvement is important.

I am, however, quite stunned by the numbers you cite.

40 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:19:16am

re: #35 reine.de.tout

I don't know about those,

Never said you did, so there wasn't any need to take the comment so personally.

because I never attended one and my kid's Catholic schools were not segregated.

Lol! who claimed you did, or your kid's schools were?

Whether they exist or not or however many people send their kids to a "segregation academy", it is, in my mind, CRIMINAL that we are failing to educate the children of this state. We are failing them in a big way.

Oh, they definitely exist, since you said yourself you and your kids never attended them, even as no one said anything about you personally doing so.

Why feign to deny their existence, wtf.

Lol btw, if anyone is still in doubt, just ask the first girl I ever kissed about them. She graduated from some fucked up Citizens Council/Council of Conservative Citizen school, on scholarship.

/better her than me

re: #34 EmmmieG

Careful - OhCrap may accuse you of operating a segregation academy.
/

I haven't accused anyone here of anything. What's the point of such an overdefensive, indignant claim?

41 RadicalModerate  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:22:50am

One thing I noticed from looking at various high schools in the report, looking at parish as well as city/parish school districts:

Segregation is alive and well in Louisiana public schools.

For example, in one town, there are six public high schools.
Two of those schools have a minority enrollment of 99% - and each of them had either "D" or "F" scores.
Two schools are roughly 50% minority - and scored in the "B" to "C" range.
Two schools had less than 5% minority - and had "A" scores.

Checking on per-student funding on these schools, the two schools with next to no minorities got on average 40% more funding than those with high-minority populations. Note that these are schools in the same district and metro area.

42 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:28:32am

re: #41 RadicalModerate

One thing I noticed from looking at various high schools in the report, looking at parish as well as city/parish school districts:

Segregation is alive and well in Louisiana public schools.

For example, in one town, there are six public high schools.
Two of those schools have a minority enrollment of 99% - and each of them had either "D" or "F" scores.
Two schools are roughly 50% minority - and scored in the "B" to "C" range.
Two schools had less than 5% minority - and had "A" scores.

Checking on per-student funding on these schools, the two schools with next to no minorities got on average 40% more funding than those with high-minority populations. Note that these are schools in the same district and metro area.

Have you found many studies on racial patterns in tracking and grade inflation? Segregation and tracking go hand in hand, in addition to unequal funding.

Every states rights con bigot in the world will eventually argue in favor of it, too. Or, just do like they've been doing in recent years and clamor for public funding of segregation academies, and exclusionary religious schools.

43 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:32am

re: #18 reine.de.tout

The "private school parents" have an incentive to require their kids to be personally responsible, because the parents are sacrificing much, in many cases, to pay that tuition.

This is just myth-making and romanticization/rationalization about the supposed primacy of private schools. It's not always true.

Parents of kids in private schools are not better people than parents of kids in public schools, simply because their children attend a school that has the word "private" tacked on to it.

Daddys-money children can take far longer to understand what "personal responsibility" means when they've never had to sacrifice anything in their lives. The experience can actually be quite infantilizing.

44 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:15:57am

re: #39 reine.de.tout

I don't disagree with you that parental involvement is important.

I am, however, quite stunned by the numbers you cite.

It was pretty demoralizing, that's for sure. Add on top of that the constant blaming of teachers in the local newspaper along with the sneering and looking down on teachers as a whole, I just couldn't take it, because I knew just how hard teachers worked to educate children. I knew how much time they spent agonizing over how to reach the kids in their classroom, how to get a parent to care. It was too emotionally draining for me to care more about a child's education than their own parents did and then get bashed for it. So, surprised about the statistics? Not me.

45 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:00am

re: #43 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

This is just myth-making and romanticization/rationalization about the supposed primacy of private schools. It's not always true.

Parents of kids in private schools are not better people than parents of kids in public schools, simply because their children attend a school that has the word "private" tacked on to it.

Daddys-money children can take far longer to understand what "personal responsibility" means when they've never had to sacrifice anything in their lives. The experience can actually be quite infantilizing.

I grew up poor, going to public schools. I learned personal responsibility from my parents...not because they were paying out money, but because they expected me to always do my very best, show initiative, and get an education. That truly is the key, parental involvement. Out of the kids who did well in my classroom, every single one had a parent who expected their child to learn.

On a side note, I never had a single parent volunteer (except for a couple of chaperones if we were fortunate enough to have a field trip) and it wasn't just my classroom having that problem, it was schoolwide, but in my daughter's kindergarten class in a more affluent area, there were tons of parents volunteering. I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of huge ad campaign reaching out to parents, describing what they specifically can do to help their child succeed in school. I think a lot of the parents just don't know how to help. We can teach the parents, too.

46 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:50am

re: #44 Sionainn

Add on top of that the constant blaming of teachers in the local newspaper along with the sneering and looking down on teachers as a whole, I just couldn't take it, because I knew just how hard teachers worked to educate children. I knew how much time they spent agonizing over how to reach the kids in their classroom, how to get a parent to care. It was too emotionally draining for me to care more about a child's education than their own parents did and then get bashed for it.

This, a hundred times!

I think it's fair to say that this has been a major failure of the conservative movement, especially those brands of conservatism that espouse "values". Education is a fundemental social value. In order to promote it you have to value those who educate.

The vilification of teachers, of scientists, of science in general as part of some liberal indoctrination/ruination plot has been poisoning the morals of America in regards to education.

PS: I agree that almost every country can learn a lot on education from Finland.

47 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:38:33am

re: #40 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

Just giving you information.
And did you not see the sarc tag on the comment about emmmieg?
You need to chill.

This was a discussion about problems in our schools right now (at the current moment, not what happened 40-50 years ago), which are quite desegregated, and you brought race into it and I found it - odd.

48 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:43:02am

re: #43 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin

This is just myth-making and romanticization/rationalization about the supposed primacy of private schools. It's not always true.

Parents of kids in private schools are not better people than parents of kids in public schools, simply because their children attend a school that has the word "private" tacked on to it.

I never said they were. What I said was that in many cases, parents are sacrificing a lot to afford that tuition (as we did) and that expenditure gives them incentive to push their kids to do well.

Daddys-money children can take far longer to understand what "personal responsibility" means when they've never had to sacrifice anything in their lives. The experience can actually be quite infantilizing.

And this is not always true. Not all kids going to a private school have parents with money. Many (like us) are of quite modest means and struggle and sacrifice to have that tuition payment.

49 BishopX  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:51:37am

re: #45 Sionainn

On a side note, I never had a single parent volunteer (except for a couple of chaperones if we were fortunate enough to have a field trip) and it wasn't just my classroom having that problem, it was schoolwide, but in my daughter's kindergarten class in a more affluent area, there were tons of parents volunteering. I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of huge ad campaign reaching out to parents, describing what they specifically can do to help their child succeed in school. I think a lot of the parents just don't know how to help. We can teach the parents, too.

Quite a bit of this is a side effect of class issues. If you work 9-5 (or an approximation thereof) then you can be at home when your kid is doing their school work. It's also much easier to make time to volunteer at your kids school if you a)have actual vacation time you can spend b) have enough control over your schedule that you can commit several weeks in advance and c)have another person who can deal with any other kids while you are volunteering.

It's much easier to stay involved your your child education when you aren't a single parent working a service sector schedule with no vacation time.

50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:02:34am

re: #49 BishopX

Quite a bit of this is a side effect of class issues. If you work 9-5 (or an approximation thereof) then you can be at home when your kid is doing their school work. It's also much easier to make time to volunteer at your kids school if you a)have actual vacation time you can spend b) have enough control over your schedule that you can commit several weeks in advance and c)have another person who can deal with any other kids while you are volunteering.

It's much easier to stay involved your your child education when you aren't a single parent working a service sector schedule with no vacation time.

QFT

I see a big difference in the kids who have a parent or grandparent who can be involved in their lives and the "day care" kids.

Neither day care workers or teachers have the ability to reinforce values and "call the kid on the carpet" the way parents do.

51 Sionainn  Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:31:09am

re: #49 BishopX

Quite a bit of this is a side effect of class issues. If you work 9-5 (or an approximation thereof) then you can be at home when your kid is doing their school work. It's also much easier to make time to volunteer at your kids school if you a)have actual vacation time you can spend b) have enough control over your schedule that you can commit several weeks in advance and c)have another person who can deal with any other kids while you are volunteering.

It's much easier to stay involved your your child education when you aren't a single parent working a service sector schedule with no vacation time.

That's very true. I'm in Las Vegas, so a lot of parents work odd shifts. There's also a high transiency rates in the schools. One school where I worked had about a 48% transiency rate, so there was a huge turnover in students during the school year. That doesn't help matters.


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