Pages

Jump to bottom

13 comments

1 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 7:31:29am

When Aslan's not talking about Israel, he's a very smart man. When he is, he's unkind, cruel and distorted.

I think you hit it on the head about talking at or past each other - yes, not listening. OTOH, how else can this go? Each side wants to feel justified. The problem is with distorting the real honest-to-goodness historical facts, most of which has been twisted beyond proportion.

Maybe the problem with the book is being even-handed. You can't be even-handed when the Arabs have no desire whatsoever to make peace. When they have never offered a treaty or a negotiation that doesn't have to do with annihilating Israel.

Anyway, maybe it's better that we in the Diaspora try to be friends on other levels and leave the M.E. out of it for now. Find common ground, establish a relationship and trust before we tackle the really tough stuff. i know a few rabbis who do a lot of interfaith stuff, walks, breakfasts, etc. Which, btw, rarely gets any media attention. I talked about this before. We need to SEE each other getting along.

More interfaith gatherings in Israel and Europe of clergy (Imams and Rabbis). They started this earlier this year actually. The rest of the community should just find common things to come together. My feeling is, the rest can be discussed, but if you're friends first, it's easier to talk about those difficult subjects. (Usually hehe)

2 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 9:52:49am
It’s pretty sad. There could be real cooperation and understanding here, instead it looks as though what we have is a bunch of people with separate agendas who are talking AT each other without listening, and who are proclaiming “Look at how tolerant I am! Look at how understanding I am!” whilc remaining intolerant and ignorant.

THIS.

IMO, if Jews & Muslims in America are going to start every dialog by broad brushing each other, rattling off lists of grievances, and citing polls & reports (or collections of essays) that include political talking points, then we're never going to get anywhere. If we're going to make any progress at all, I beleive it has to be on a one-on-one personal level.

Look, do the Jewish members here sometimes say things that, if I took them to heart, would cause me to feel resentful and/or dislike them? Yes. Do I allow that to happen? Except in extreme cases, no. Why? Because it's pointless, because there is a lot of human pain, and anger, and fear involved in the I-P situation, not to mention a host of other political, religious, and emotional issues. It's a minefield, and a minefield is not a good place to try to have a rational conversation.

I've been doing my research over the past 9 months or so. I read the Israeli newspapers as well as things that are published by Jewish groups here in the U.S. There's plenty of anti-Muslim (not just anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian) sentiment & right-wing propaganda out there. Some of it is extremely hateful & violent. Do I post it here? No. Do I fling it in anyone's face when the I-P issue is brought up and some of the things said make me twitch? No. Why? Again, because IMO it's pointless. It doesn't foster understanding, it just sends everyone into a defensive crouch.

re: #1 marjoriemoon

Anyway, maybe it's better that we in the Diaspora try to be friends on other levels and leave the M.E. out of it for now. Find common ground, establish a relationship and trust before we tackle the really tough stuff. i know a few rabbis who do a lot of interfaith stuff, walks, breakfasts, etc. Which, btw, rarely gets any media attention. I talked about this before. We need to SEE each other getting along.

More interfaith gatherings in Israel and Europe of clergy (Imams and Rabbis). They started this earlier this year actually. The rest of the community should just find common things to come together. My feeling is, the rest can be discussed, but if you're friends first, it's easier to talk about those difficult subjects. (Usually hehe)

THIS also.

I follow Reza Aslan on Twitter because sometimes he posts useful info, but what he thinks or says has no bearing on my personal relationships with others. Ditto for CAIR, ICNA, J Street, and Tikkun—I may listen to what they have to say, but I take it all with a grain of salt.

I had no hand whatsoever in creating the I-P situation, neither did any of the Jews that I know, AFAIK. Yet it hangs over all our heads like an angry storm cloud and poisons dialog. I think we can talk about it eventually, but it will require a good deal of introspection and honesty, and I don't know if we're ready for that.

As Marjorie wisely pointed out, we need to be able to SEE each other first, to build friendships. Friendships require trust, understanding, an ability to truly listen without harsh judgement, and, most important of all, forgiveness. That's not going to be an easy thing to do, but the alternative is to import all the baggage of the I-P conflict and let it be the thing that determines how we interact with each other. Judging by how that has played out overseas over the past 60-80 years, it seems like a lose-lose situation to me.

Some of you may disagree. That's fine, but if you do, then please don't waste my time yammering about how I must "pick a side" or be considered an anti-Semite as I won't be bullied into jumping into that morass.

3 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 10:21:14am

re: #2 CuriousLurker

I've been doing my research over the past 9 months or so. I read the Israeli newspapers as well as things that are published by Jewish groups here in the U.S. There's plenty of anti-Muslim (not just anti-Arab or anti-Palestinian) sentiment & right-wing propaganda out there. Some of it is extremely hateful & violent. Do I post it here? No.

I don't read Arutz Sheva, why should you? I quit reading them when they started publishing op-eds by the Shrieking Harpie.

I do read YNet and Haaretz for their news articles, although sometimes they can be very very hateful toward religious Jews.

4 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 10:33:53am

re: #3 Alouette

I don't read Arutz Sheva, why should you? I quit reading them when they started publishing op-eds by the Shrieking Harpie.

Yeah, I'd probably be better off if I didn't.

I do read YNet and Haaretz for their news articles, although sometimes they can be very very hateful toward religious Jews.

Tell me about it. I saw a article last week about the Israel Andalusian Orchestra and a female singer. The comments got really ugly.

5 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 11:02:26am

re: #4 CuriousLurker

Yeah, I'd probably be better off if I didn't.

Tell me about it. I saw a article last week about the Israel Andalusian Orchestra and a female singer. The comments got really ugly.

Their Yom Kippur articles were really, really nasty. Jews who fast on Yom Kippur are like rapists and murderers? WTF?

You get the picture.

Haaretz op-eds I totally ignore.

6 Bob Levin  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:10:21pm

I think it's important to know what to ignore when it comes to what is written about the Middle East. I look at JPost, Haaretz, Ynet, and even Arutz Sheva. I ignore everything that I don't post.

The whole issue almost gets down to--CL, we've been talking for a while. Would you have any problem with me being your next door neighbor? I wouldn't have any problem with you living next door. And get the mail when you're gone a few days, feed the pets, that stuff.

So why hasn't this been able to happen on a macro level? It's a big discussion that we have to take on bit by bit. Official spokespeople can't have a proper discussion, nor can recognized experts in this or that. Unfortunately, those are the people who write the books, articles, and op-eds.

And that's why any attempts to understand this through normal and expanding means of mass communication throw more gasoline on the fire. Folks who form their opinions based on such discourse will find their discussion skills severely warped, too.

CL, I'd invite you and yours over for an evening in our Sukkah.

It's a long run for a short jump.

7 CuriousLurker  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:36:42pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

Of course I wouldn't have any problem with you being my next door neighbor, and I'd gladly come over for Sukkah. And I'd happily I'd invite you & yours for the evening iftar during Ramadan.

I guess that what frustrates me so. When I drove a cab there were Jewish & Palestinian drivers—some of the Jews were Americans who'd lived in Israel, some were Israelis by birth—and everyone got along fine. They'd do the macho "guy jokes" thing about uzis and kalashnikovs and rock throwing, but everyone knew it was just joking. In 17 years I never saw them come to blows with each other. Ever.

The Arab guys (there were lots of them from many different countries) used to even make fun of themselves with cracks like, "My wife burnt the rice lat night; it must've been a Zionist plot," or "I had a flat tire; it was probably the Mossad." They knew that crap was ridiculous, but then most had been here long enough to be deprogrammed.

It make me crazy to know that they can get along fine. That both sides want to get along, they don't want to bring that crap over here and have it ruin their ability to work, raise their families, and live in peace. It's beyond infuriating to me that people can't find a way to fix the damned problem. Gah!

8 Bob Levin  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:48:27pm

Unfortunately, it's not required for people to learn to laugh. And that's why most programs for 'sensitivity training' are a fool's errand. Fact is, if you want to bridge differences and really get along, you've got to laugh and makes jokes with each other. And if one joke hurts, then you've got to become funnier.

It's these little spiritual missteps that leads to the invention of military technology. Granted, it took place over thousands of years and I think we can blame it all on the French, but still....

9 Bob Levin  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:51:29pm
It's these little spiritual missteps that leads to the invention of military technology.

In other words, it's this thought process--

"I can't become funnier, I must hit this person with a stick."

10 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 4:50:18pm

re: #7 CuriousLurker

Of course I wouldn't have any problem with you being my next door neighbor, and I'd gladly come over for Sukkah. And I'd happily I'd invite you & yours for the evening iftar during Ramadan.

I guess that what frustrates me so. When I drove a cab there were Jewish & Palestinian drivers—some of the Jews were Americans who'd lived in Israel, some were Israelis by birth—and everyone got along fine. They'd do the macho "guy jokes" thing about uzis and kalashnikovs and rock throwing, but everyone knew it was just joking. In 17 years I never saw them come to blows with each other. Ever.

The Arab guys (there were lots of them from many different countries) used to even make fun of themselves with cracks like, "My wife burnt the rice lat night; it must've been a Zionist plot," or "I had a flat tire; it was probably the Mossad." They knew that crap was ridiculous, but then most had been here long enough to be deprogrammed.

It make me crazy to know that they can get along fine. That both sides want to get along, they don't want to bring that crap over here and have it ruin their ability to work, raise their families, and live in peace. It's beyond infuriating to me that people can't find a way to fix the damned problem. Gah!

I want to say before the start of the first intifada, late 80s, relations were actually pretty good in Israel. The fighting there, the tensions, particularly in Jerusalem where the boundaries are disputed, made things a lot worse where neighbors no longer trust each other. The unilateral pullout in Gaza further angered Jews at their own government. So it's been very difficult.

I have a clear definition about relations in Israel v. the U.S. That's why I'm angry at people like Geller and Spencer who stir the pot here instead of making attempts to get along.

As to the jokes, my one Muslim friend and I went to our favorite sandwich shop. As we ordered our lunch, the clerk (whom we both knew) said to me, "You know he's a Palestinian." Actually, he's Syrian/Lebanese. I just looked at him wide eyed, not quite knowing what to say. I knew she was joking, but did he? He pointed at me, "And she's a Jew." I told her, "Well, leave off the pork and we'll both be happy."

When I first met him, I thought he was Hispanic. He spoke fluent Spanish (you know, it's Miami). When he told me he was born in Lebanon, I figured he was Arab, but I considered it terribly rude to ask his religion, so I didn't.

Maybe a year went by and we were chatting one day about Mel Gibson. He told me when his sister saw the Passion of the Christ, It so upset her, she went screaming from her apartment, very upset. Very emotional gal, he was telling me, laughing. Then there was this really weird silence. I figured I knew him well enough to finally ask him THE QUESTION, so I just went for it. "Are you Christian?" He paused and said, "No." Then looked me dead in the eye and said, "I'm a Muslim." Acting like I didn't notice the terrible awkwardness of all this, I lightheartedly said, "Oh! I'm Jewish." He looked down at my Star and said, "Well, DUH." LOL And that was that. We never speak about I/P relations and I doubt we ever will. It's just not important. I wish it wasn't important to anyone.

11 What, me worry?  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 6:53:54pm

I re-read the above article and I think it may be harsh. Aside from the Lerner and Aslan criticisms, the rest seemed to be doing exactly what we talked about. Not really addressing the I/P issue head on, but talking either around it or just talking about times when we do get along. That's a problem, why?

Maybe a book focused more on philosophy from some people who know it first hand would be better. As Natan Sharansky describes in his book "The Case for Democracy", it's not about Love v. Fear. It's about Freedom v. Fear. You cannot make peace with any country until both countries have free societies. I.e. there will never be meaningful negotiations with the Palestinian Authority until the Palestinian people are free. The role of the rest of the world is to shun the fear-based society, the dictator, and not appease them. Make conditions on helping them, that you will do so if they offer freedom to their people.

Anyway, other experiences of imprisonment, flight and survival from Jews and Muslims. There's got to be a million stories in the naked city.

Then other stories of family histories, food, hobbies, religious celebrations or just a few good rants about Death to America, Death to Israel... you know...

12 Bob Levin  Mon, Oct 10, 2011 7:36:21pm

re: #11 marjoriemoon

They knew that crap was ridiculous, but then most had been here long enough to be deprogrammed.

We live in a world where there is a whole lot o' programming going on. And friends should make sure one and other do not fall into being programmed.

However, doing so is not polite. It's not the way that we speak to each other. We believe that talking about subjects that matter is not safe. So if we talk about politics or religion, it's with people we know we agree with. We don't hang around folks who challenge us. We believe that this is more comfortable than being challenged.

And that's why people don't challenge bullies, and that's why the 9 year old Saddam Husseins make it to 10 years old feeling more empowered. All over the world normal conversation entails continually avoiding what everyone should be talking about. How do we get so turned around?

Which brings us back to the Sukkah and the iftar, and being able to laugh and look in the mirror, and then going back and doing it again.

13 What, me worry?  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:14:00pm

re: #12 Bob Levin

We live in a world where there is a whole lot o' programming going on. And friends should make sure one and other do not fall into being programmed.

However, doing so is not polite. It's not the way that we speak to each other. We believe that talking about subjects that matter is not safe. So if we talk about politics or religion, it's with people we know we agree with. We don't hang around folks who challenge us. We believe that this is more comfortable than being challenged.

And that's why people don't challenge bullies, and that's why the 9 year old Saddam Husseins make it to 10 years old feeling more empowered. All over the world normal conversation entails continually avoiding what everyone should be talking about. How do we get so turned around?

Which brings us back to the Sukkah and the iftar, and being able to laugh and look in the mirror, and then going back and doing it again.

Yes, I like the laughing and looking in the mirror part!

Americans spend a lot of time trying to be kind and polite. Etiquette matters. Well it did totally for my parents and for me growing up, but the internet generation I guess is much different. So maybe that's good?

Israelis are such cool people. They are very kind, but they haven't a lot of time for BS so they tell it like it is. This can be refreshing or a pain in the ass. My cousin, who has her American citizenship, is back in Tel Aviv. She wants to return to America because she feels she's living in the land of the yentas where everyone has something to say - whether you want to hear it or not. My mom and I consider it so "campy" and fun. My cousin is over it.

There's a happy ground there somewhere, I know there is.


This page has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2016-01-01 10:29 am PST
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds Tweet

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Square Cash Shop at amazon
as an LGF Associate!
Recent PagesClick to refresh
#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201129Saturday was limited to some light and general work, owing to an early morning 16 mile run.We (well she) painted another 25% of the deck. Almost done for the first coat.Then there will be a ton of touch up and ...
dangerman
2 days ago
Views: 239 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 •
The Big Moon - Why Director/Editor - Jonjo LoweProducer - Rosie BrearDoP - Alistair LittleCinema 4D Animation - Jay DarlingtonGrade - Myles Bevan @ Time Based ArtsEdit/FX Assistant - Carina EtaeCollage Design Assist - Bex LiuChoreography - Grace Nicol Special thanks - Thrds Studio, ...
Thanos
3 days, 22 hours ago
Views: 419 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 •
Deep Sea Diver - Impossible Weight (Studio Video) “Impossible Weight” off Deep Sea Diver’s new album 'Impossible Weight' out now. Filmed during the recording of Impossible Weight at Hall of Justice in Seattle WA. STREAM / BUY "Impossible Weight" here smarturl.it WATCH OFFICAL MUSIC VIDEO HERE : ...
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 657 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 •
Eddie Vedder - Matter of Time (Official Music Video) The official music video for "Matter of Time" by Eddie Vedder. Written for everyone worldwide afflicted with Epidermolysis Bullosa (EB). To help fund research aimed at treating and curing EB, please donate to the EB Research Partnership: ebresearch.org “Matter ...
Thanos
1 week, 1 day ago
Views: 714 • Comments: 1 • Rating: 2
Tweets: 2 •
#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201122 Saturday was general maintenance around the place.Mowing, weed whacking, palm tree trimming, etc.Nothing picture worthy or really, even pond related. Sunday was more rain. We really were lucky for that first year. Not one Sunday did we get rained ...
dangerman
1 week, 2 days ago
Views: 774 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 4
Tweets: 0 •
Nduduzo Makhathini - UmlothaMusic video by Nduduzo Makhathini performing Umlotha. © 2020 Universal Music (Pty) Ltd South Africa vevo.ly
Thanos
1 week, 4 days ago
Views: 949 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 7 •
Brian Eno - Decline and Fall (From ‘O Nome Da Morte’) The official music video for "Decline and Fall”, a track from the new album “Film Music 1976 - 2020”, is a cinematic collaboration between Brian Eno and acclaimed Brazilian film director Henrique Goldman which contemplates rain and fire, fiction ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
Views: 1,479 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 •
Brian Eno - Like I Was a Spectator 'Like I Was A Spectator', a brand new track by Brian Eno with Daniel Lanois and Roger Eno from ‘Apollo – Atmospheres & Soundtracks – Extended Edition’. The video was created using rare N.A.S.A. footage.Order now: brianeno.lnk.to Follow Brian ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 1 day ago
Views: 1,174 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 •
#Thegreatpoolpondconversion - 201115After two really sunny and swell days since Eta left, Saturday was a mix of mostly sun and a bit of rain.We still managed to be really productive both days anyway. Got all the lava rock washed and shoveled into ...
dangerman
2 weeks, 2 days ago
Views: 1,381 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 6
Tweets: 0 •
Michael Kiwanuka - Solid Ground (Live at the V&A) Listen to the Mercury Prize winning album ’KIWANUKA' now: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.to Michael Kiwanuka performing Solid Ground taken from the Mercury Prize winning album 'KIWANUKA' live at the Victoria & Albert museum in London. Sign up to Michael's mailing list: michaelkiwanuka.lnk.toFollow ...
Thanos
2 weeks, 4 days ago
Views: 1,395 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 0
Tweets: 2 •