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1 researchok  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:35:35pm

Show off.
//

Now, if you could just explain it to the rest of us.

(Short version, please)

2 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:39:06pm

re: #1 researchok

Show off.
//

Now, if you could just explain it to the rest of us.

(Short version, please)

The clocks weren't synchronized, because of science.

3 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:39:07pm

re: #1 researchok

Show off.
//

Now, if you could just explain it to the rest of us.

(Short version, please)

OK... Gravity has a relativistic effect on clocks that are the center of this experiment. It looks like the experimenters did not properly account for those effects.

4 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:42:52pm

re: #2 Obdicut

Actually, I should say 'The clocks aren't sychronizable', since there's no way to actually get them to sychronize, you can only calculate after the fact if you know their relationship. No idea how hard that math is to do. If it's doable on-the-fly you could make clocks that appeared to be sychronized, but one of them would have to be programmed 'off' to account for the relativistic effects.

5 researchok  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:43:17pm

re: #3 LudwigVanQuixote

OK... Gravity has a relativistic effect on clocks that are the center of this experiment. It looks like the experimenters did not properly account for those effects.

TY, LVQ

Have these relativistic effects been precisely measured? Was this an egregious or minor oversight, in your opinion?

Also, is there an established protocol for these kinds of experiments?

6 researchok  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:45:33pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Actually, I should say 'The clocks aren't sychronizable', since there's no way to actually get them to sychronize, you can only calculate after the fact if you know their relationship. No idea how hard that math is to do. If it's doable on-the-fly you could make clocks that appeared to be sychronized, but one of them would have to be programmed 'off' to account for the relativistic effects.

Doesn't the US atomic clock or the folks at Greenwich synchronize clocks?

How do they do that?

7 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:47:35pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Actually, I should say 'The clocks aren't sychronizable', since there's no way to actually get them to sychronize, you can only calculate after the fact if you know their relationship. No idea how hard that math is to do. If it's doable on-the-fly you could make clocks that appeared to be sychronized, but one of them would have to be programmed 'off' to account for the relativistic effects.

The math involved is tensor analysis from General relativity. It is in the PDF linked above actually. It is possible to account for in synchronising clocks, just hard to do in practice. Gravity is very weak... but then again the effect measured is very small.

re: #5 researchok

TY, LVQ

Have these relativistic effects been precisely measured? Was this an egregious or minor oversight, in your opinion?

Also, is there an established protocol for these kinds of experiments?

The big upsot of this will be a refining of that protocol. The people at OPERA are very good physicists who have done a lot of stellar research. One of the issues here is that they made devices so incredibly precise that GR effects actually do need to be taken into account. This is not an egregious error per se - it is a small effect but it is big enough to put the timing off by some tens of nanoseconds.

Now think about this for a moment... a nano second is a billionth of a second. They have some of the best stop watches ever. We can cut them some slack.

8 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:48:17pm

re: #6 researchok

Doesn't the US atomic clock or the folks at Greenwich synchronize clocks?

How do they do that?

Again... synchronized to what precision? It's pretty easy to synchronize to a second... not so much to a nano-second.

9 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:50:25pm

re: #6 researchok

Doesn't the US atomic clock or the folks at Greenwich synchronize clocks?

How do they do that?

I'm not sure what you're asking. They derive their time from the vibration rates of atoms. I'm not sure what they're using at the moment. Other people can then synchronize with them using any form of telephony they want, and it'l be accurate to the latency of that telephony.

10 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:54:03pm
The UTC(NIST) time scale comprises an ensemble of cesium beam and hydrogen maser atomic clocks, which are regularly calibrated by the NIST primary frequency standard. The number of clocks in the time scale varies, but is typically around ten. The outputs of the clocks are combined into a single signal by using a weighted average. The most stable clocks are assigned the most weight. The clocks in the UTC(NIST) time scale also contribute to the International Atomic Time (TAI) and Coordinated Universal Time (UTC).

So that clock will be accurate to within about the vibration rate of those atoms, or better if they're using some cool math.

Then, if you want to synchronize from afar, you have to have telephonic equipment of whatever sort where can measure the transfer time accurately-- to whatever degree of precision you can measure the transfer time, that'll be how accurately you're synchronized. You could build a feedback loop that'd improve that.

11 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:55:47pm
12 researchok  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:57:19pm

re: #8 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #9 Obdicut

Fog is lifting. Thank you.

LVQ, last question: You remarked,

Again... synchronized to what precision? It's pretty easy to synchronize to a second... not so much to a nano-second.

Won't those standards continue to refine as technology expands?

Will/can enhanced synchronization capabilities 'change' physics as we know it now? Also, what might enhanced synchronization capabilities mean in terms of real world effect? It seems to me change to our understanding of time will have profound social implications.

13 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 3:04:31pm

re: #12 researchok

Fog is lifting. Thank you.

LVQ, last question: You remarked,

Won't those standards continue to refine as technology expands?

Of course. Think about the longitude problem of the 18th century.

Will/can enhanced synchronization capabilities 'change' physics as we know it now?

It will allow us to look in places we could not before with greater accuracy.

Also, what might enhanced synchronization capabilities mean in terms of real world effect? It seems to me change to our understanding of time will have profound social implications.

Sadly not so much. The average person can't be bothered to get up to date with the early 20th century on these issues.

14 calochortus  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 3:25:25pm

So much for the conservative opinion pieces talking about how if neutrinos can exceed the speed of light, maybe other "settled science" (evolution, climate change, whatever) might be wrong too.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

15 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 3:27:20pm

re: #14 calochortus

So much for the conservative opinion pieces talking about how if neutrinos can exceed the speed of light, maybe other "settled science" (evolution, climate change, whatever) might be wrong too.

Thanks for keeping us up to date.

Yes indeed. That is why those jackals and charlatans are harping on it.

16 RadicalModerate  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 4:18:16pm

Dumb question time.

What kind of difficulty would be involved in reversing the locations for the experiment, which should determine whether there are discrepancies in the measurements of the neutrino particles.
Is this a situation where the CERN accelerator is required to "fire" the particles, or can it be achieved via a more conventional method?

17 Obdicut  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 4:33:34pm

re: #16 RadicalModerate

If the problem is the relativistic effects, then reversing it would do nothing; it would just reverse the parts of the equation.

18 lostlakehiker  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 8:21:02pm

re: #17 Obdicut

If the problem is the relativistic effects, then reversing it would do nothing; it would just reverse the parts of the equation.

Reversing some inputs to an equation, and leaving others the same, would change the answer in ways that could be data-mined.

19 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 8:39:27pm

re: #18 lostlakehiker

Reversing some inputs to an equation, and leaving others the same, would change the answer in ways that could be data-mined.

The equations of GR obey time reversal symmetry manifestly. That is untrue.

20 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 8:40:19pm

re: #16 RadicalModerate

Dumb question time.

What kind of difficulty would be involved in reversing the locations for the experiment, which should determine whether there are discrepancies in the measurements of the neutrino particles.
Is this a situation where the CERN accelerator is required to "fire" the particles, or can it be achieved via a more conventional method?

Not a dumb question. GR works the same way in reverse as it does forward.

This is called time reversal symmetry.

21 Varek Raith  Tue, Oct 11, 2011 11:19:53pm

LIES!
My ship goes FTL.
:P

22 Obdicut  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 2:11:26am

re: #18 lostlakehiker

Nope.

23 Varek Raith  Wed, Oct 12, 2011 3:34:31am

re: #18 lostlakehiker

Not if you reverse the plasma flow to the main deflector.


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