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29 comments

1 Prideful, Arrogant Marriage Equality Advocate  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:23:52pm

Oh my god.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:26:42pm

Beyond words.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:42:05pm

Her own niece.

(I torture mine by picking out odd birthday gifts. I think the 5 lb gummy bear was the best.)

4 _RememberTonyC  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 5:50:31pm

I just hope these animals end up in the general prison population. Although the justice system can't give them the death penalty for their crimes, the other prisoners are under no such constraints.

5 theheat  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 6:11:01pm

Can't say I give a flying duck what fate awaits these depraved pieces of shit. I know if this happened to one of my family, the people responsible would only be safe (from me) in a maximum security prison. This - what these people did - is the SAW mentality realized.

I hope this poor girl gets all the help and love she can get, and it still won't be enough.

6 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 6:19:04pm

Bizarrely reminiscent of the Gertrude Baniszewski case.

Gertrude Nadine Baniszewski (September 19, 1929 – June 16, 1990), also known as Gertrude Wright and Nadine van Fossan, was an Indiana divorcée who, with the aid of most of her own children and neighborhood children, such as Ricky Hobbs and Coy Hubbard, oversaw and facilitated the prolonged torture, mutilation, and eventual murder of Sylvia Likens, a teenaged girl she had taken into her home. When she was convicted of first-degree murder in 1966, the case was called "the single worst crime perpetrated against an individual in Indiana's history".

7 FreedomMoon  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 6:53:47pm

I really really really really hope there is a hell for these people to burn and rot in, since no justice available here on earth would ever come close to what these pieces of shit deserve.

8 celticdragon  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 7:31:07pm

Unspeakable.

The girl will almost certainly have to be institutionalized for life in a controlled setting. I cannot think of a punishment that would really for what the adults did to her.

9 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 7:46:53pm

With a population of ~312 million in the U.S. one has to wonder the probability of how much more of this is going on. The hidden dungeons in Bagdad and Iraq come to mind.

And what was Vicki's problem over the past 10 years?

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 8:22:31pm

re: #9 Bobibutu

With a population of ~312 million in the U.S. one has to wonder the probability of how much more of this is going on. The hidden dungeons in Bagdad and Iraq come to mind.

And what was Vicki's problem over the past 10 years?

Linda. Vicki was the mom. One wonders why she didn't tell the police to check her sister; I can't imagine that that level of nasty went unnoticed.

11 Bob Dillon  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:15:20pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

Linda. Vicki was the mom. One wonders why she didn't tell the police to check her sister; I can't imagine that that level of nasty went unnoticed.

Exactly. Or why Linda was not questioned or raised suspicions of investigators. I guess we will eventually find out that there is much more to this story. Brrrrrrrrr!

12 Flavia  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:34:07pm

And some people wonder why I support the death penalty. I say it's because I'm gentle & kind - it's certainly more than vermin such as this deserve!

13 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:46:30pm

re: #12 Flavia

And some people wonder why I support the death penalty. I say it's because I'm gentle & kind - it's certainly more than vermin such as this deserve!

I see no reason why We The People need to pay to feed and house Human Monsters.

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:56:38pm

re: #12 Flavia

And some people wonder why I support the death penalty.

Because you support executing innocent people (which is the inevitable outcome of enabling the death penalty)?

15 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 11:04:43pm

re: #14 Sergey Romanov

Because you support executing innocent people (which is the inevitable outcome of enabling the death penalty)?

You know, I hate this argument.

There is no reason we can't have responsible Death Penalty. I can't believe I am saying this, it has to be taken out of the hands of the States. There are Monsters--we as a society do not need to pay for their up keep.

John Wayne Gacy, Dahmer, This Creature referred to in the Post above.

If Monsters have to be convicted by the Supreme Court, I'd be ok with it. They are, luckily, few and far between.

16 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Wed, Oct 19, 2011 11:07:27pm

re: #15 ggt

You know, I hate this argument.

Just because you hate it doesn't make it any less valid.

There is no reason we can't have responsible Death Penalty. I can't believe I am saying this, it has to be taken out of the hands of the States. There are Monsters--we as a society do not need to pay for their up keep.

John Wayne Gacy, Dahmer, This Creature referred to in the Post above.

If Monsters have to be convicted by the Supreme Court, I'd be ok with it. They are, luckily, few and far between.

This doesn't solve the problem of innocent people being convicted of crimes. The Supreme Court is not any sort of a magic solution.

17 boxhead  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 1:49:30am

re: #15 ggt

You know, I hate this argument.

There is no reason we can't have responsible Death Penalty. I can't believe I am saying this, it has to be taken out of the hands of the States. There are Monsters--we as a society do not need to pay for their up keep.

John Wayne Gacy, Dahmer, This Creature referred to in the Post above.

If Monsters have to be convicted by the Supreme Court, I'd be ok with it. They are, luckily, few and far between.

With all due respect, I truly believe the death penalty is always wrong. A responsible DP does not exist.

18 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 2:47:44am

re: #14 Sergey Romanov

Because you support executing innocent people (which is the inevitable outcome of enabling the death penalty)?

You're against the death penalty even when there isn't any doubt to the defendants guilt? Our standard now is "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", that's a little wide open for a DP case. In this instance, there is NO doubt. She should fry.

19 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 3:22:30am

re: #18 RogueOne

You can always find cases like this where you can say "See, the death penalty is totally appropriate!" That's easy.

What you can't do is create actual policy that makes sure that the death penalty is only ever used in those cases.

20 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 3:48:50am

re: #19 Obdicut

You can always find cases like this where you can say "See, the death penalty is totally appropriate!" That's easy.

What you can't do is create actual policy that makes sure that the death penalty is only ever used in those cases.

I think you can using a "No doubt" standard. There are plenty of cases, like this one, where there isn't any question of the defendants guilt. We are 100% positive she's guilty and I think the crime involved in heinous enough to remove her from the planet. At a minimum I think it's acceptable for the people of PA to decide whether or not she deserves to continue breathing.

My problem with the DP has always been a lack of trust in the system in general. We have 12 people deciding, on limited evidence, whether or not it's reasonable to believe the person is guilty or not. I'm not sure that is good enough to convict people of any crime much less kill someone over.

I agree that our system now is too screwed up to believe that every person convicted in a DP case is actually guilty. To fix it we can either dump it completely or tweak it so we're absolutely positive of the defendants guilt. I prefer tweaking but I'm not going to get upset if voters decide to dump it instead.

21 Obdicut  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 3:49:50am

re: #20 RogueOne

I think you can using a "No doubt" standard.

Unfortunately, we live in the real world. All it takes is one coerced confession.

22 RogueOne  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 3:53:59am

re: #21 Obdicut

Unfortunately, we live in the real world. All it takes is one coerced confession.

You're right, there is that.

23 dartmydog  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 9:42:34am

Mr. Romanov are you saying you would not hang the Nazi filth if you were to choose their fates at the Nuremburg trials?

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 9:48:15am

re: #18 RogueOne

You're against the death penalty even when there isn't any doubt to the defendants guilt? Our standard now is "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt", that's a little wide open for a DP case. In this instance, there is NO doubt. She should fry.

A death penalty is always given when there's supposedly no doubt as to the defendant's guilt. Then it turns out they were innocent.

25 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 9:48:28am

re: #23 dartmydog

Mr. Romanov are you saying you would not hang the Nazi filth if you were to choose their fates at the Nuremburg trials?

And you ask this question why?

26 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 11:34:39am

re: #23 dartmydog

Mr. Romanov are you saying you would not hang the Nazi filth if you were to choose their fates at the Nuremburg trials?

OK, I will assume you're asking in good faith.
Here's the deal: you can't be only partially against DP, be consistent and be coherent all at the same time. There will always be cases where we "know" that some or other guy is guilty. This includes the Nuremberg Nazis.

Except in the eyes of the law there is no distinction between the cases we personally find doubtful and the cases that we find clear. All of the people who have been sentenced in modern times were sentenced because courts thought their guilt was beyond the reasonable doubt.

If we except the Nazis from the no DP rule, where does this stop? What are the rules for differentiating between "clear" and "unclear" cases, if all of them were judged by the same standard of the reasonable doubt? Just as an example, let's take another war criminal, John Demjanjuk. For many years for millions of people it was so damn "clear" that he was Ivan the Terrible of Treblinka, after he had been sentenced to death by the Israeli court. Then USSR fell and documents came to light that demonstrated that another guy was Ivan the Terrible. (And yes, Demjanjuk was later sentenced in Germany but for other crimes in another camp). So "what, you don't want to see the Nazis dead?" card won't work, sorry.

I shed no tears for the dead Nazis. But if I were in charge, they would get life sentences and would spend the rest of their miserable lives in prisons, witnessing many things they held dear destroyed.

27 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 12:05:47pm

re: #12 Flavia

And some people wonder why I support the death penalty. I say it's because I'm gentle & kind - it's certainly more than vermin such as this deserve!

You pretty much hit this on the head.

This strikes me as one of those orgy of evidence cases where there really is no question of possible innocence. Death really is the only answer. Nothing is served by keeping such depraved and debased animals alive.

28 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 12:12:11pm

re: #14 Sergey Romanov

Because you support executing innocent people (which is the inevitable outcome of enabling the death penalty)?

You make a valid argument. In general I am oppsed to the death penalty for exactly that reason. Too many innocents are executed. However, the actual guidelines of the Supreme Court in reinstating it are good ones. The problem is that of course, craven politicians have abused and twisted the guidelines and successive conservative courts have weakened them.

So here is, what I believe the only workable solution, and the one that was the gist of the original guidelines. In general, guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is insufficient to execute. Execution is only possible in cases where the evidence is utterly overwhelming and the crimes particularly heinous. I would personally also like to add the notion that the court can determine if a criminal has any reasonable chance of rehabilitation, and a credible ruling that there is no such chance as a criteria.

In this case, it is very difficult for the owner of the house, where the dungeon was, and who lived there and personally abused living witnesses coupled with all the identity theft evidence to possibly have a good explanation. If found guilty we see a career criminal and sadist of the worst sort whose only possible remorse is in getting caught. I have no problem with execution in this case.

29 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Oct 20, 2011 12:15:37pm

re: #21 Obdicut

Unfortunately, we live in the real world. All it takes is one coerced confession.

Or you can rule confession inadmissible as it is in Jewish law to prevent exactly that. At the very least, it could be ruled that confession alone is insufficient to execute.

The standard should be one based on overwhelming physical evidence. The Nuremberg Nazis, these people in this article and people like Gary Heidnick, also from Philly... all meet that criteria.


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