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1 Bob Levin  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 2:45:10pm

Screenplay.

2 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 2:48:27pm

That's crazy. Culture aside can you imagine growing up with people who you thought wee your blood relations only to find that out? This is a great story though because of the girls' friendship. And the one mother, Yulia I think kind of resembles my mom facially.

3 theheat  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 2:58:03pm
"It is difficult," concedes Naimat. "One family is Christian, the other is Muslim. We have different traditions. What I fear most is that the daughter I've raised will start going drinking in bars, that she will stop praying and working. I'm worried she will lose her religion."

Full stop. Rewind. People, get over this shit. Let your kids be individuals, help them make good decisions, and let them follow their own path. This freaking out about your kids not being one kind of person or another is nothing but 'projecting' your own precious bullshit; just hope they grow up to be intelligent and decent people, of your religion, a different religion, or none.

4 wrenchwench  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 3:08:45pm

The girls brightened my day.

5 aagcobb  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 3:15:59pm

re: #3 theheat

Full stop. Rewind. People, get over this shit. Let your kids be individuals, help them make good decisions, and let them follow their own path. This freaking out about your kids not being one kind of person or another is nothing but 'projecting' your own precious bullshit; just hope they grow up to be intelligent and decent people, of your religion, a different religion, or none.

But then she may burn in Hell forever!!1!11

6 Bob Levin  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 3:19:35pm

re: #2 HappyWarrior

Is there any way we can have a discussion about history itself, specifically, the various methods of historical investigation?

For instance, years ago when discussing Prohibition, the professor asked a question, a type of question that never occurred to me before this class. He asked--why now? Why not 1910, or 1888? Why did this occur in 1920? It moved us from seeing history as a succession of events, to seeing history as an amalgam of forces and wills that sometimes reach a critical mass, to produce an event. Sometimes a significant event.

When PBS aired Ken Burns' Prohibition, I was watching with interest to once again confirm or doubt this method. From the special, it seemed as though there has always been a coalition in America comprised of the churchgoers and those resistant to immigration--unless those immigrants are being sold as free labor. In other words, there has always been a Tea Party, in the minority. Occasionally they get their way. Rarely, but occasionally.

In the case of Prohibition, they accidentally caused the boom of the 1920s as well as the Great Depression. And these dynamics also account for the Recession of 1937--which has been previously discussed here.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if you come across various methods for historical investigation in your studies, and if so, what they might be.

7 theheat  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 3:19:55pm

re: #5 aagcobb

But then she may burn in Hell forever!!1!11

Yeah, about that... Pics or it didn't happen.
//

8 HappyWarrior  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 3:36:58pm

re: #6 Bob Levin

Is there any way we can have a discussion about history itself, specifically, the various methods of historical investigation?

For instance, years ago when discussing Prohibition, the professor asked a question, a type of question that never occurred to me before this class. He asked--why now? Why not 1910, or 1888? Why did this occur in 1920? It moved us from seeing history as a succession of events, to seeing history as an amalgam of forces and wills that sometimes reach a critical mass, to produce an event. Sometimes a significant event.

When PBS aired Ken Burns' Prohibition, I was watching with interest to once again confirm or doubt this method. From the special, it seemed as though there has always been a coalition in America comprised of the churchgoers and those resistant to immigration--unless those immigrants are being sold as free labor. In other words, there has always been a Tea Party, in the minority. Occasionally they get their way. Rarely, but occasionally.

In the case of Prohibition, they accidentally caused the boom of the 1920s as well as the Great Depression. And these dynamics also account for the Recession of 1937--which has been previously discussed here.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if you come across various methods for historical investigation in your studies, and if so, what they might be.

Sure, we can do that and thanks for the question. Methods of investigation. I personally enjoy looking at primary sources. They're not perfect since they either can embellish something or leave something out and of course there's the problem of human memory. However, I like primary sources because we get a good idea of what was going on in the mind at the time. I also like when using different secondary sources use writers from different backgrounds. I'll give you an example. For my paper on Russian Anti-Semitism, I found an article by a religious scholar about an Orthodox Christian spiritual book and how it had a role in Anti-Semitism. The hypothetical Prohibition question is a great one I think and to me that's such a fascinating time period. Another thing if I am doing a report on a person, I love looking at memoirs which again are faulty but it's the closest I can get outside an interview or in many cases heh seance in their head. When I wrote about Nixon a couple years back, I found his memoirs invaluable.

9 Bob Levin  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 4:05:46pm

re: #8 HappyWarrior

I also like primary sources.

I can't escape the idea that there are triggering forces, not pat forces, they can change from time to time--but it seems that history is comprised of much more than poll numbers. It's just not enough to have a majority. Frequently, the minority wins--hence the existence of the US. David beats Goliath, as in Microsoft breaking away from IBM. For me, it gets down to figuring out what tilts events. Where is the 800 pound gorilla?

So you had to read The Sacred Chain?

10 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 9:06:27pm

re: #5 aagcobb

And that wingnuttery could go either way. I can easily see some fanatic demanding that the girl belonging to the 'wrong' religion by "freed". And of course if she does not wish to believe as the fanatic tells her, then it is his duty to force to believe.

I hate assholes of that type, but fear they might put in an appearance in this case.

11 CuriousLurker  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 10:01:54pm

re: #10 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, it definitely cuts both ways. I also noted this:

"I try to show Anya motherly love," Yulia says, "But she doesn't accept it. She's been brought up differently. She's not used to tenderness. We don't really understand each other. When your own daughter looks at you like a stranger, that's so painful."

I found it odd that she'd say the girl wasn't "not used to tenderness". What does that mean? The father was shown holding his smaller children and reading to them, and religious as he might be it doesn't mean he's incapable of tenderness towards his children. I suspect that may be more about the mother's hurt feelings over the cultural gulf between her and her daughter that appears to have resulted in her at being treated as a stranger. It's hard to say really without knowing the families personally—too much emotion involved.

12 CuriousLurker  Tue, Oct 25, 2011 11:58:00pm

re: #3 theheat

Full stop. Rewind. People, get over this shit. Let your kids be individuals, help them make good decisions, and let them follow their own path. This freaking out about your kids not being one kind of person or another is nothing but 'projecting' your own precious bullshit; just hope they grow up to be intelligent and decent people, of your religion, a different religion, or none.

That's pretty much what my dad did. My mom wanted to have me baptized as a baby, and my dad was okay with it until the priest told him it would be mandatory that I be raised as a Catholic. He put the kibosh on that idea; told the priest and my mom that I could decide for myself what I wanted to believe when I got old enough. Of course, he probably had no idea.... Heh.

13 HappyWarrior  Wed, Oct 26, 2011 3:14:19pm

re: #9 Bob Levin

I also like primary sources.

I can't escape the idea that there are triggering forces, not pat forces, they can change from time to time--but it seems that history is comprised of much more than poll numbers. It's just not enough to have a majority. Frequently, the minority wins--hence the existence of the US. David beats Goliath, as in Microsoft breaking away from IBM. For me, it gets down to figuring out what tilts events. Where is the 800 pound gorilla?

So you had to read The Sacred Chain?

Triggering forces, yeah. Take your prohibition example, Bob. The temperance movement in this country really got under way coinciding with what I've heard called the second great awakening. ever read that book no.I've been reading a lot from Jewish historical journals though. I am going to be using Jewish newspapers more in my final copy tho.


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