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1 Bob Levin  Wed, Nov 2, 2011 10:13:23pm
Rabbi Slifkin is the author of “The Challenge of Creation” an excellent work which reconciles traditional Jewish teaching and evolution.

I would be interested in reading a summary of that book. I'm curious how he defines 'traditional Jewish teaching', meaning--what is the content of that teaching?

2 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:40:19am

The Challenge of Creation

Rabbi Slifkin's website.
This is the book that caused all the controversy. I have read it and it is awesome. Rabbi Slifkin is a great man. He defines "traditional Jewish teaching" as, what we have learned from the Tanakh, the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Gemara (Talmud) according to how the great rabbis of the past (particularly Rambam) have interpreted it.

3 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:57:03am

re: #2 Alouette

I looked at his website before the writing the post. The problem, or feature (I go with feature) of Tanach, Midrash, Mishnah, and Talmud is that many people read these for conclusions, whereas what I believe to be a most cursory exploration shows that these are mostly methods. They are methods showing the proper way to derive understanding from the texts that we are studying.

The texts also provide information necessary to derive more information. In this way, we involve ourselves in this eternal cycle of increasing wisdom, and therefore increasing effectiveness in our interactions with the world (the performance of mitzvot)--ultimately trying to bring peace.

So, on the one hand you have Rambam's interpretation, which contrasts one view of creation juxtaposed to an Aristotelian view, but on the other hand you have RambaN, who simply postulates what we now call the Big Bang. Consequently, there is no traditional Jewish teaching. Add in what could be classified as the mystical view (which I believe is in Bava Metziah, or one of the Bavas), the issue becomes even more variable. The only thing one can do is apply the method of Talmud, and of course, the commandment in the Shema to discuss all of this almost constantly. Again, the conversational method of Talmud is essential.

It sounds as if he has discovered that Post-Holocaust Torah scholarship has evolved into a virtual cult, walls built high, trying to fight against the considerable assimilationist pressures of modernity. Okay.

But if this is the case, then evolution is not part of the issue. It's not even close. It's not even an issue. The issue would be to examine the bricks, or the structure of steel that comprises these thick walls, the intellectual pressures that contribute to the cultism.

The Haredi are not the only Jews with this problem. The less observant Jews have a view of the scriptures that is ridiculously shallow, so much so that it can be dismissed without much thought. Anyone shaking this paradigm, thinking that our literature has significant merit, is quickly tossed out--but such folks go to the orthodox synagogue. They have options.

Where does one go if they shake the paradigm of orthodoxy, especially orthodoxy with high walls and no doors?

That is the challenge of modern Judaism.

4 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:25:07am

re: #3 Bob Levin

It seems like you have given this some thought.

Zedushka is a Talmudist of significant expertise, yet he is so overwhelmed by the enormous body of work that is already out there, he has not contributed any hiddushim of his own. Two of my sons have published their own work (some drashot on the parsha).

5 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:57:54am

re: #4 Alouette

I feel for the guy. I'm in the same position. You have to get out from behind the walls, but there's no minyan. It's a serious problem. And since the whole process is antithetical to Chasidism, meaning we're all anarchists out there--well, if you get to this point, you are firmly convinced in the power of prayer and study, so that's what you do.

But a minyan sure would feel nice.

Even the theoretically non-Chasidic orthodoxy is de facto Chasidic, as individuals are paralyzed reluctant to make any decision without consulting the rabbi, even though there is no rebbe. In other discussions I use the phrase 'giving away one's eyes' to denote succumbing to peer pressure. Not only do the folks give away their eyes, they giftwrap them.

6 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 7:03:28am

re: #5 Bob Levin

I feel for the guy. I'm in the same position. You have to get out from behind the walls, but there's no minyan. It's a serious problem. And since the whole process is antithetical to Chasidism, meaning we're all anarchists out there--well, if you get to this point, you are firmly convinced in the power of prayer and study, so that's what you do.

But a minyan sure would feel nice.

Even the theoretically non-Chasidic orthodoxy is de facto Chasidic, as individuals are paralyzed reluctant to make any decision without consulting the rabbi, even though there is no rebbe. In other discussions I use the phrase 'giving away one's eyes' to denote succumbing to peer pressure. Not only do the folks give away their eyes, they giftwrap them.

But Rabbi Slifkin is not talking about Hasidism, he is talking about Haredism. "Haredi" is a political definition: there are too many diverse types of Jews who fall under the "Haredi" rubric but are rather different religiiously. Religiously, I define myself as a Chabad Hasid as far as worship rituals and social identification, that doesn't mean I can't use the brain that G-D gave me.

7 eightyfiv  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 7:17:33am

re: #2 Alouette

Seconded. It's a cool book. It's mainly a survey of philosophies on creation in both Jewish and Christian thought, including such amusing historical imponderables as "Did Adam have a navel? Did the trees of the Garden of Eden have rings?" Along the way, it absolutely *trashes* the "God of the gaps" philosophy -- God's purpose is to fill the gaps in today's physical theories -- that drives the creationist movement in America.

I wish the article there offered more concrete details about post-haredism and the historical novelties of orthodoxy and haredism, though.

8 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 7:21:55am

re: #6 Alouette

But Rabbi Slifkin is not talking about Hasidism, he is talking about Haredism. "Haredi" is a political definition: there are too many diverse types of Jews who fall under the "Haredi" rubric but are rather different religiously.

But it's a dotted line between the two. There are dotted lines all over Jewish culture. When does a person, in their heart, cross over from being Reform to Conservative? It happens, and folks change synagogues. And this goes up the ladder. But the higher you climb, the cultures take surprising turns.

Religiously, I define myself as a Chabad Hasid as far as worship rituals and social identification, that doesn't mean I can't use the brain that G-D gave me.

Of course you can. You should. You should use it better than you've ever used it. But the higher you climb, there is a feeling that one is memorizing doctrine, not thinking freely. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. There are so many unexplored areas of Jewish thought, areas that desperately need exploring. But it's like Burt Lancaster in Field of Dreams, don't cross the line. (Of course he crosses the line, meaning he has freely chosen, once more, the life that he led).


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