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1 sffilk  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 10:18:04am

Sounds like someone needs to let Bibi know what a mistake he's making.

2 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 10:21:02am

Netanyahu is a rwnj, but this is still surprising, since he's also a head of state and should follow some sort of a decorum.

3 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 10:21:31am

re: #1 sffilk

Sounds like someone needs to let Bibi know what a mistake he's making.

Indeed. This is a big mistake on several levels. Freedom Federation shows him as a confirmed video guest. Mr. Netanyahu is typically very supportive of gay and lesbian rights.

4 Rocky-in-Connecticut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:19:32am

The irony of this is astounding in that a great part of the "Love" far-right Christians have for Jews and Israel extends only as far as they can be sacrificed under some religious/nationalist bus or otherwise utilized in an Apocalyptic end-times fantasy. Mr. Netanyahu has to know this.

And the evolution of this wacked-out theological mobius loop of cherry-picked Revelations quips suggests that not only do these far-right nutjobs fervently believe in this make-this-up-as-we-go crap, but they also increasingly act and promote US Policy in order to facilitate violence, war, and hate in order to foster it. It is a cynical political calculation by Mr. Netanyahu and nothing more. But this association will come back to bite Israel and Jews in general before long. The far-right Christian agenda is eliminationist and believes wholeheartedly in violence and the ends-justify-the-means. Israel will quickly feel the wrath of these certain Christians when Israel slides more to the center or Left, which is inevitable at some point.

5 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 12:23:03pm

Yikes.

I hope this turns out to be a mistake. Netanyahu was probably told it was an evangelical group and not much more, but these people are some of the craziest Dominionists and Reconstructionists and flat-out bigots in the country.

6 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 12:57:02pm

not surprised at all

7 simoom  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:02:10pm

According to the schedule Israel's Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon will also be delivering "A Message to the Freedom Federation". Listed on the following line is Likud Chairman / Member of the Knesset Danny Danon, whose presentation is titled "Jihadism and the Threat to Western Values".

8 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:12:18pm

If this is true he's making a big mistake.

1.) He has no business meddling in our election-year presidential politics.

2.) Doing so will lend credence to every anti-Semitic conspiracy theory out there about Jews controlling American politics (and wanting to control the whole world a la Ford & "The International Jew"). It could set American Jews back several decades.

3.) The individuals & groups involved in this event are vipers and won't hesitate to turn on their Jewish "friends" the moment it suits their purposes. If PM Netanyahu thinks extremist Christians are a group he can play political games with and not get bitten, he might want to go back and read his history books.

9 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:12:36pm

But then, on the other hand, top Republican politicians hang out with these very same extremist loons and nobody seems to give a shit.

10 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:13:14pm

Wow. If this is true, this goes beyond just "bad decorum."

Cut all aid to Israel and withdraw our ambassador.

11 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:14:31pm

re: #9 Charles

But then, on the other hand, top Republican politicians hang out with these very same extremist loons and nobody seems to give a shit.

Sad but true. In fact Bachmann and Perry will be attending this event according to their webpage. Might be others. This is a SOP event for the American right-wing and the Republican Party.

12 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:18:16pm

re: #9 Charles

But then, on the other hand, top Republican politicians hang out with these very same extremist loons and nobody seems to give a shit.

American Jews should give a shit unless they want to see all their progress circling the drain and end up being on a par with American Muslims as being suspect. There are a lot of haters out there just waiting for the opportunity to seize on something like this. It's like handing them a gift on a silver platter.

13 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:24:42pm

re: #6 WindUpBird

This, Netanyahu loves his rabble-rousing nationalist populism, these are the people he understands as a politician more than anyone else.

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:26:13pm

re: #10 SpaceJesus

Wow. If this is true, this goes beyond just "bad decorum."

Cut all aid to Israel and withdraw our ambassador.

wut?

15 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:30:57pm

re: #10 SpaceJesus

Wow. If this is true, this goes beyond just "bad decorum."

Cut all aid to Israel and withdraw our ambassador.

No.

16 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:34:43pm

re: #15 Gus 802

What do you propose we do if he goes through with this outrageous, intolerable stunt?

17 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:37:55pm

re: #16 SpaceJesus

Get a no-confidence vote in the Knesset? It's not very head-of-statish.

Maybe somebody should come in and give him lessons on proper behavior ><

18 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:38:29pm

re: #13 windsagio

This, Netanyahu loves his rabble-rousing nationalist populism, these are the people he understands as a politician more than anyone else.

I can't tell you how awesome it is that the Israeli prime minister is planning to help out a whole bunch of neo-klansmen


Well done, Bibi! Thanks!

19 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:42:47pm

Does he always talk to wretched hives of scum and villainy?

20 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:49:05pm

re: #16 SpaceJesus

What do you propose we do if he goes through with this outrageous, intolerable stunt?

A response didn't even come to mind when I saw this. Only to perhaps shed light on this. Maybe as Windsagio suggests to have this brought in front of the Knesset. Thereby letting the people of Israel to decide or judge. From where I sit however this is terrible publicity for the Netanyahu administration. It is also reflective of current trend in the Republican Party in the USA. In any event, this is not worthy of cutting "all aid to Israel and withdraw our ambassador."

On a side note. Here's a picture of Pamela Geller with Israel's Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon.

21 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:53:13pm

This sucks. Can you imagine the fucking outrage if Obama attended an anti-Netanyahu rally?

22 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:54:03pm

re: #21 Obdicut

This sucks. Can you imagine the fucking outrage if Obama attended an anti-Netanyahu rally?

Exactly.

23 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:54:20pm

re: #20 Gus 802

That's what's illustrative about the whole thing, the parallels between Netanyahu's coalition and the GOP/Right/TP have been suddenly made so very much clearer.

24 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:55:00pm

re: #20 Gus 802

So a foreign head of state from an allied nation who is directly trying to undermine our commander in chief here on American soil during a war and an election year isn't all that bad?

Aside from Israel secretly selling top-secret US weapons to China for decades, I can think of almost nothing worse.

25 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:55:27pm

re: #24 SpaceJesus

... you just made that up right?

RIGHT?!?!?

26 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 1:56:22pm

re: #21 Obdicut

This sucks. Can you imagine the fucking outrage if Obama attended an anti-Netanyahu rally?

They still screech about "Obama stumped for Odinga", which he really didn't (tho he appeared on stage with him).

27 Decatur Deb  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:01:31pm

OTOH, the flock of TPGOP luminaries Glenn Beck promised for his Scheisskopf Aliya never materialized, so maybe this is just Freedom Federation trying to pack the hall.

28 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:02:33pm

re: #25 windsagio

[Link: www.theinsider.org...]

29 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:05:37pm

re: #28 SpaceJesus

That's fucked up

(And yes I note its on a conspiracy news site, lol :p)

30 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:09:49pm

(Breaking my own rules but only because its funny)

Winnie doesn't like talking about clandenstine arms deals :(

31 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:10:08pm

re: #29 windsagio


here's the same story at the bbc

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:10:19pm

re: #28 SpaceJesus

KEY TOPICS
Bilderberg
America
Europe
NATO
Single Arab Currency
Britain
Knights Templar
NWO Progress 2002
Unfair World Trade
Police Trading Drugs
Oil Running Out
G8 Bible Prophecy
Terrorism

33 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:12:05pm

re: #31 SpaceJesus

I actually checked it on wiki, but I know how people work so I had to acknowledge it up front :p

Edit: per sergey's 32.

34 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:12:44pm

re: #33 windsagio

I don't know why anyone would be so lazy as to link to such a site if normal sources are readily available.

35 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:13:45pm

re: #34 Sergey Romanov

quick and complete summary, first link, its funny?

All reasons could apply.

As far as argument goes it weakens your position, but I'm pretty sure SpaceJesus doesn't care about that kind of thing anyways.

He's Jesus.

36 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:15:27pm

re: #34 Sergey Romanov


The story is common knowledge, I went with the first link on google. Insider sounded like a real newspaper. Should have posted the BBC one.

37 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:15:46pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

OK.

38 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:19:03pm

I'm harping on the point, but I still find it totally amazing/hilarious/nutso that somebody on here finds the discussion of Secret Israeli Arms Sales to China verboten.

Come out and plaaay!

39 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:19:16pm

re: #24 SpaceJesus

So a foreign head of state from an allied nation who is directly trying to undermine our commander in chief here on American soil during a war and an election year isn't all that bad?

Aside from Israel secretly selling top-secret US weapons to China for decades, I can think of almost nothing worse.

That would be quite a disproportional response to Bibi's political sniping. (A response that, incidentally, would be the end of Obama.)

40 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:20:03pm

re: #37 Sergey Romanov

It shows I've been on LGF too long, too. The first thing I thought of is 'they're gonna quibble about the source rather than the content'.

I try to check out everything seperately these dyas, just to defend against that. Time consuming tho'

41 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:20:53pm

re: #40 windsagio

That's a natural response and that's what matters. Regardless of content.

42 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:21:41pm

re: #41 Sergey Romanov

what quibbling, or doing extra checking?

I guess the first is and the second should be :D

43 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:22:40pm

re: #42 windsagio

what quibbling, or doing extra checking?

I guess the first is and the second should be :D

Pointing out the poisoned well.

44 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:25:21pm

here's the thing though. If the thing being said is true, the source is somewhat irrelevant, except as a way for the discussion to be deflected.

45 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:26:17pm

re: #44 windsagio

here's the thing though. If the thing being said is true, the source is somewhat irrelevant, except as a way for the discussion to be deflected.

No, because how can you trust a rotten source?

46 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:28:52pm

re: #44 windsagio

The source isn't irrelevant. If David Duke is saying true things about black people, you can be damn sure he's doing it in order to cast them in a bad light. The truth may still have to be dealt with, but it brings all sorts of things into question-- is the account being referenced full, in context, fair, taking everything into account, etc?

47 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:29:07pm

re: #45 Sergey Romanov

well you could do what I did. I checked the info, it only takes like 3 minutes to get a good feel for whether something's at least most likely right or not.

If you're looking hard enough to see what the source is about, its not actually much more effort to do that.

The problem is people (not you) are more interested in shooting down/distracting than actually finding out if its true.

48 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:30:54pm

re: #47 windsagio

That's a possible but not a necessary route. I can do it if I'm feeling charitable, which I'm sometimes not. There should be a culture of posting. If a poster worries about deflection, they should take precautions.

49 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:31:21pm

re: #46 Obdicut

well I'm kind of repeating myself now, and we're getting meta.

It's not hard to check the info. The main impact of having a source like that is weakening your own position.

Still, just about all of us have done what SJ did there (know something, google it, take a source that sounded reasonable).

50 Winny Spencer  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:31:42pm

re: #47 windsagio

well you could do what I did. I checked the info, it only takes like 3 minutes to get a good feel for whether something's at least most likely right or not.

If you're looking hard enough to see what the source is about, its not actually much more effort to do that.

The problem is people (not you) are more interested in shooting down/distracting than actually finding out if its true.

The truth is that you and your ilk are always prepared to believe anything that casts Israel or Jews in a bad light.

51 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:32:06pm

re: #48 Sergey Romanov

oh absolutely, doesn't mean the people doing the deflecting aren't being intellectually dishonest though :p

You've still gotta play the game to win!

52 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:32:37pm

I like how they use the name "The Insider" just as many reputable papers and publications do. They might be crazy, but they're not dumb.

53 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:32:58pm

re: #50 Winny Spencer

got ya to come out anyways :D

you did read the part where I independently checked the story right? What he posted is true.

Yes, me and my ilk like the truth.

54 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:34:06pm

re: #52 SpaceJesus

Which is aggravating.

In any case, I will want to say that SpaceJesus and windsagio should have started off with the BBC.

Wikipedia has other stories.

55 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:34:07pm

re: #51 windsagio

If that's a knowing deflection (i.e. someone knows a priori there is a good source). I do hope you did not just accuse me of intellectual dishonesty for #32.

56 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:34:47pm

re: #52 SpaceJesus

I like how they use the name "The Insider" just as many reputable papers and publications do. They might be crazy, but they're not dumb.

Dunno, for me the name range the first bell.

57 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:35:17pm

re: #55 Sergey Romanov

I specifically excluded you from that group a few posts up :p

58 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:36:11pm

re: #57 windsagio

Yes, but that was then./ OK, moved on.

59 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:36:11pm

re: #54 ProLifeLiberal

yo not my source! In fact I was the first one to note its nature! :p

(Again, because I knew #32 was coming)

60 Winny Spencer  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:36:37pm

re: #53 windsagio

got ya to come out anyways :D

you did read the part where I independently checked the story right? What he posted is true.

Yes, me and my ilk like the truth.

Compare this

to

"Aside from Israel secretly selling top-secret US weapons to China for decades, I can think of almost nothing worse."

Liar.

61 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:37:45pm

re: #59 windsagio

Should have directed it to SpaceJesus then. :P

Who is that guy who was caught spying for Israel, and Netanyahu has been trying to get him released. I remember the incident, not the name.

62 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:38:58pm

re: #60 Winny Spencer

umm how does that show a lie?

63 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:39:12pm

re: #61 ProLifeLiberal

Apparently, I'm thinking of Jonathan Pollard.

64 Winny Spencer  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:42:03pm

re: #62 windsagio

umm how does that show a lie?

US 'anger' at Israel weapons sale

"The Israeli defence ministry has confirmed that it faced questioning by Washington over arms sales to China.

But the ministry denied media reports that the US had demanded the dismissal of a top official over the matter.

A statement from the Israeli defence ministry said arms exports to China were being clarified with US officials in what it called a good spirit.

The statement followed Israeli reports that the sale of a sensitive weapons system to China had angered Washington.

According to the reports it prompted American calls for the resignation of the defence ministry's director, Amos Yaron.

The head of the Israeli parliament's defence committee, Youval Steinitz, said tensions, hidden from the public, had appeared in the last few years over Israel's weapons sales to China.

"There has been a tightening of checks exercised by the US on Israeli weapons exports... we are very sensitive to US requirements," Mr Steinitz said.

Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz also denied the newspaper reports, while accepting that a dossier on Israeli weapons sales to China was "in the process of clarification".

Correspondents say the row risks adding to an atmosphere of suspicion between the Israel and the Pentagon. "

Where is the source for "Aside from Israel secretly selling top-secret US weapons to China for decades"? Where is it?

65 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:42:07pm

re: #63 ProLifeLiberal

the weird thing about the pollard story is that the israeli govt has admitted he was a spy for them (whatever happened to ..the secretary will disavow...) and has been working to get his release.

'Yo give us our spy back!"

66 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:45:08pm

re: #64 Winny Spencer

Its a specific story of a specific case. That piece doesn't deny anything in what SJ said.

All it says is that the Israeli defense ministry confirms they've been selling weapons, confirms the US really doesn't like it, and denies that the US demanded the dismissal of a top official.

Edit: do people actually read the stories they post anymore?

67 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:46:02pm

re: #64 Winny Spencer

Where have you been? This had been a story since the early 90s.


[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

68 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:46:47pm

re: #65 windsagio

Not happening.

I don't care what nation you are from, if your spy is found snooping in the US, we keep them.

Unless we do a swap. But there is nothing to be swapped.

And apparently, there is a good chance the new Type 52 destroyers China has use an Isreali ESM system. And, apparently Israel is the 2nd biggest supplier of the Chinese Military, only behind Russia (who is does much more business and research with India anyways). In addition, Israel may have exported Patriot Missile systems to the PRC.

69 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:48:59pm

re: #61 ProLifeLiberal

Should have directed it to SpaceJesus then. :P

Who is that guy who was caught spying for Israel, and Netanyahu has been trying to get him released. I remember the incident, not the name.

Strange case to bring up since every govt, left and right, tried to get him released.

70 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:49:47pm

re: #68 ProLifeLiberal

Selling arms to China just seems such bad judgement, tho'

(Not that a ton of US companies wouldn't jump at the chance)

~~

Also interestingly, per wiki there's some occasional talk of doing a trade for Yosef Amit, a (presumed) American spy, but we continue to deny he's ours.

which is how I thought the spy game worked.

71 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:51:36pm

re: #69 Sergey Romanov

Doesn't change my view. Netanyahu is still trying to get him released, but others have as well.

In my view, he should stay, unless Yosef Amit is indeed and American Spy, then we do a swap.

72 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:51:46pm

re: #69 Sergey Romanov

The arms thing doesn't have that much to do with Netanyahu either though, its also ongoing.

We've had some continental subject drift :D

73 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:53:09pm

I will say its amazing that he sued the Israeli government to get them to acknowledge him, and it worked!

Can you imagine somebody trying that in the US?

74 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:53:09pm

re: #72 windsagio

This is a bit more than continental drift.

It's more like a supersonic flight away from the Airport of Origin to unknown places.

75 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:54:00pm

re: #74 ProLifeLiberal

first subject was kind of dead anyways, everyone seems to agree that Netanyahu was either being a douche or an idiot, or maybe both.

76 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:54:37pm

anyways, I think low blood sugar is making me cranky, I'll be back in a bit if you guys are still going :D

77 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:59:17pm

re: #10 SpaceJesus

Wow. If this is true, this goes beyond just "bad decorum."

Cut all aid to Israel and withdraw our ambassador.

I have to agree. If Israeli leaders are going to interfere in our internal politics, then they can get their aid somewhere else.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

78 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 2:59:57pm

re: #71 ProLifeLiberal

I had an impression you brought that up to somehow add negativity about Bibi. However trying to release own spies is a natural thing for anybody. Let's stick to real facts illustrating his nature, like this one.

79 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:04:27pm

re: #50 Winny Spencer

The truth is that you and your ilk are always prepared to believe anything that casts Israel or Jews in a bad light.

That was a fucking dispicable comment.

80 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:06:58pm

Fuck I missed all the fun!

81 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:07:56pm

re: #50 Winny Spencer

The truth is that you and your ilk are always prepared to believe anything that casts Israel or Jews in a bad light.

Ooh! ooh! Am I part of the ilk?!?! I wanna be part of the ilk!

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:11:33pm

re: #21 Obdicut

This sucks. Can you imagine the fucking outrage if Obama attended an anti-Netanyahu rally?

this, exactly

83 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:16:55pm

re: #77 celticdragon

There is definitely a Netanyahu factor here too. If it was a more reasonable leader doing this, I would temper the response. But this guy is a giant jerk already, and if he likes to play it tough, so can we.

84 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:19:33pm

re: #12 CuriousLurker

American Jews should give a shit unless they want to see all their progress circling the drain and end up being on a par with American Muslims as being suspect. There are a lot of haters out there just waiting for the opportunity to seize on something like this. It's like handing them a gift on a silver platter.

I repeat —> gift + silver platter —> haters

Look at the shitstorm this kicked up here in the space of a couple of hours, and this is a largely well informed, Israel-friendly place.

85 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 3:54:51pm

Oh, i could not begin to tell you how un-surprised i'd be if this came to pass.

Bibi is an asshole.

86 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:04:41pm

re: #84 CuriousLurker

John Garfield. Everyone's talking as if Netenyahu has already given the speech. There's nothing about this anywhere, as far as I can see, except in this snippet in RWN. This is sounding like a case of guilt through rumor. That has some interesting implications.

87 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:06:12pm

re: #86 Bob Levin

It's not a rumor since he is a confirmed speaker. If it turns out to be incorrect, that still won't be a rumor, only an indication that the conference's organizers are utter liars.

88 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:08:23pm

re: #87 Sergey Romanov

You mean confirmation that the organizers are utter liars. I'm not convinced that the organizers speak truth. I think that makes it a rumor.

89 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:11:28pm

re: #88 Bob Levin

You mean confirmation that the organizers are utter liars. I'm not convinced that the organizers speak truth. I think that makes it a rumor.

No, Bob, you being not convinced does not make it a rumor for everybody else. No matter how execrable the wingnuts behind this event are, they're serious folks who mean business and have already organized this thing at least once. There is no reason at this moment to doubt them re:BN's participation as "video speaker".

90 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:11:37pm

re: #88 Bob Levin

If they're just lying thats a pretty big news story in of itself.

It's honestly not very likely.

91 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:12:34pm

also 'rumor' wouldn't be right, 'falsification' would :p

92 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:15:18pm

re: #89 Sergey Romanov

Then why are you convinced that it's going to happen? If one of the organizers would post here, you would slam him every which way, claiming ultimately that he or she is a racist charlatan. If any of the speakers posted here, the same would happen--false beliefs based on false assumptions. In this one instance though, they're telling the truth. And of this you are certain. Really?

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:17:42pm

re: #92 Bob Levin

Then why are you convinced that it's going to happen? If one of the organizers would post here, you would slam him every which way, claiming ultimately that he or she is a racist charlatan. If any of the speakers posted here, the same would happen--false beliefs based on false assumptions. In this one instance though, they're telling the truth. And of this you are certain. Really?

Excuse me, what, exactly, is the reason to doubt the official announcement that BN will participate and a separate question: what, exactly, makes an official announcement a "rumor"? What would happen at LGF with any of these shits is irrelevant.

94 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:18:51pm

re: #92 Bob Levin

And I'm not "convinced it's going to happen". It might happen, or Bibi might get cold feet. What I don't see a reason to doubt is that he was invited and he accepted the invitation.

95 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:19:07pm

re: #90 windsagio

So they, who are normally...not accurate in their beliefs...are likely telling the truth. I'm missing this. Someone make a list of the beliefs they have that are right on accurate. Someone vouch for the character of these folks. How about someone finding this story confirmed in some other sources. It's not a big stretch to find their claims as things to cause suspicion.

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:21:57pm

re: #95 Bob Levin

So they, who are normally...not accurate in their beliefs...are likely telling the truth. I'm missing this. Someone make a list of the beliefs they have that are right on accurate. Someone vouch for the character of these folks. How about someone finding this story confirmed in some other sources. It's not a big stretch to find their claims as things to cause suspicion.

uhhhh this is some seriously tortured logic here dude

97 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:23:20pm

re: #95 Bob Levin

there's a difference between political beliefs and a simple statement like this.

What do they have to gain by announcing a false speaker?

It's far more likely that they honestly believe he's going to show than the opposite.

I also think its likely he (or more his people) didn't really research this stuff, and just kind of walked right into it. I bet he pulls out.

(on the other hand, they're not that much difference than Likud's base. Still, he's a fairly canny politician and not likely to do something this dumb if he thinks about it)

98 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:23:59pm

re: #93 Sergey Romanov

what, exactly, makes an official announcement a "rumor"?

The fact that a high percentage of what they say isn't true. But, as you point out, he might have been invited, and someone employed in the Prime Minister's office might have accepted to do something by video.

So, it's not something to be believed. Hence, rumor.

99 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:24:36pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

Untwist it. Thank you.

100 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:25:02pm

re: #98 Bob Levin

rumor isn' something untrue its something unsubstantiated.

Their own announcement would be what Wikipedia calls a 'primary source'. It could be wrong, but thats still not a rumor :p

(Yes the semantics really freaking bug me)

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:26:19pm

re: #98 Bob Levin

The fact that a high percentage of what they say isn't true. But, as you point out, he might have been invited, and someone employed in the Prime Minister's office might have accepted to do something by video.

So, it's not something to be believed. Hence, rumor.

they're out to raise their political star, that's their goal

announcing ultra-high-profile speakers that don't exist is exactly counterproductive to raising their political star

it's like saying 'Well, Bachmann lied about gays, so she's gonna lie about where her campaign stops are! It's the island of knights and knaves!"

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:27:25pm

re: #99 Bob Levin

Untwist it. Thank you.

It's straightened out now! I can read the fortune, it says "Poster really likes Netanyahu and refuses to believe he could ever associate with scumbags"

103 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:28:04pm

re: #98 Bob Levin

The fact that a high percentage of what they say isn't true. But, as you point out, he might have been invited, and someone employed in the Prime Minister's office might have accepted to do something by video.

So, it's not something to be believed. Hence, rumor.

What of what they said about people invited to their conferences is not true? Unless they do have a bad track record of lying about participants, you have no case. I'm afraid I must agree that's some tortured logic.

Neither is an official announcement a rumor in any case, even when it is not true.

104 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:28:21pm

re: #97 windsagio

What do they have to gain by announcing a false speaker?

Credibility, creating a wedge issue, increasing antisemitic sentiment in the US, press coverage.....even just debating whether it's going to happen is publicity for the rest of the event.

It's far more likely that they honestly believe he's going to show than the opposite.

There's a lot of things that they honestly believe, but are not true. It's what they do.

105 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:29:35pm

re: #104 Bob Levin

wub put out the difference pretty well up above, huge difference between 'he's a socialist' and 'we have scheduled XXX to speak'.

106 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:31:31pm

re: #100 windsagio

rumor isn' something untrue its something unsubstantiated.

Fine, then folks are calling him guilty on the basis of things which are completely unsubstantiated. It's still not right.

107 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:31:58pm

re: #106 Bob Levin

Fine, then folks are calling him guilty on the basis of things which are completely unsubstantiated. It's still not right.

But that's not what is happening.

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:32:42pm

re: #106 Bob Levin

Fine, then folks are calling him guilty on the basis of things which are completely unsubstantiated. It's still not right.

We'll happily retract our comments if Bibi shows up with a statement that says "I've never heard of this event"


I'm sure he has people who will notify him that there's a bunch of psycho Christans lying about him giving a speech for them!

109 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:33:22pm

Credibility is not an all-or-nothing affair. The conference organizers are absolutely credible when it comes to who will participate in their conference - unless they have a prior track record of lying about these things. Their lies about Obama or evolution are irrelevant to schedules and itineraries. Duh.

110 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:34:43pm

Man, where's Winny Spencer, we could use some more misdirection and apologism!

111 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:36:24pm

re: #109 Sergey Romanov

Would you have posted this story?

112 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:36:58pm

re: #108 WindUpBird

Perfect, when is the date?

113 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:37:54pm

re: #5 Charles

Yikes.

I hope this turns out to be a mistake. Netanyahu was probably told it was an evangelical group and not much more, but these people are some of the craziest Dominionists and Reconstructionists and flat-out bigots in the country.

God willing, someone will make a phone call.

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:38:37pm

re: #9 Charles

But then, on the other hand, top Republican politicians hang out with these very same extremist loons and nobody seems to give a shit.

They're not heads of state. Thank God.

115 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:39:07pm

re: #111 Bob Levin

Would you have posted this story?

No, but not because I doubt it.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:39:25pm

re: #13 windsagio

This, Netanyahu loves his rabble-rousing nationalist populism, these are the people he understands as a politician more than anyone else.

I'm always amazed by your in-depth knowledge of the Israeli political scene.

117 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:39:38pm

re: #115 Sergey Romanov

Then why?

118 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:40:22pm

re: #117 Bob Levin

Then why?

Because it's not the type of a story I normally post. I don't understand why you're asking, too.

119 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:42:57pm

re: #116 SanFranciscoZionist

so am I!

Seriously tho', Likud's platform says all I need to know. Its nationalist populilst crap just as bad as any Tea Party platform.

120 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:43:11pm

re: #118 Sergey Romanov

Because there's a high likelihood that it's not true. Now, the day after this event, if Bibi speaks, then it's a story.

121 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:43:58pm

re: #118 Sergey Romanov

I think he's being confused and thinking you're one of the nattering nabobs of negativism (like PLL or SJ or me :p)

122 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:44:37pm

re: #120 Bob Levin

wait so a poltiicians word is the only thing that makes a story real?

Then Herman Cain never met those woman and Bill Clinton never had Sex!

123 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:47:25pm

re: #122 windsagio

wait so a poltiicians word is the only thing that makes a story real?

That's not at all what I said. I said that if this happens, then it's a story. Isn't the issue--Hey, look what's going to happen?

There's no reason to think it's going to happen, or more accurately, not enough reason to think it's going to happen.

124 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:47:34pm

re: #120 Bob Levin

Because there's a high likelihood that it's not true. Now, the day after this event, if Bibi speaks, then it's a story.

There is no such high likelihood. This is a "big guns" conference. I would doubt it if it came from some obscure group. I would doubt it if it came from a group that previously lied about such things. But this? This includes the leading wingnuts, including presidential candidates (Rick Perry will speak, for example). It's as credible as it goes in regard to schedule.

125 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:49:51pm

re: #123 Bob Levin

The stories about say Palin, or Bachmann being announced as speakers at some crazyass rightwing conference were treated exactly the same way.

I don't know why BN is different.

126 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:51:00pm

re: #124 Sergey Romanov

This includes the leading wingnuts, including presidential candidates (Rick Perry will speak, for example). It's as credible as it goes in regard to schedule.

Exactly. Folks specifically out to trash the President. And most likely, as everyone in the world knows, they are going to lose. Why on earth would a sitting head of Israel show up, even via video to this event? It's political suicide.

127 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:51:51pm

re: #126 Bob Levin

Exactly. Folks specifically out to trash the President. And most likely, as everyone in the world knows, they are going to lose. Why on earth would a sitting head of Israel show up, even via video to this event? It's political suicide.

Why would it be political suicide for a right wing israeli politician to associate with the right-wing in the US?

128 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:52:02pm

re: #126 Bob Levin

Is it? Hasn't there already been strong anti-Obama sentiment whipped up in Israel, and hasn't Bibi been a part of that?

129 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:52:36pm

re: #125 windsagio

Because BN is an actual elected official of a foreign nation. They don't do that.

130 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:53:30pm

re: #126 Bob Levin

Exactly. Folks specifically out to trash the President. And most likely, as everyone in the world knows, they are going to lose. Why on earth would a sitting head of Israel show up, even via video to this event? It's political suicide.

I don't think it's a political suicide at all to appear at a gathering of pro-Israel evangelicals. It's not right, but not suicide.

131 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:54:11pm

VPM Moshe Ya’alon already spoke at Awakening 2010

Beck's Supporters

According to the Jerusalem Post, Likud MK Danny Danon, who chaperoned Sarah Palin around Jerusalem in March, is helping to organize Beck's event. Danon is the Deputy Knesset Speaker and head of World Likud, and has worked closely with John Hagee and other Christian Zionists in the past, including a group called Worldwide Biblical Zionists.

In April 2010, Danon and Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya'alon participated in the Freedom Federation gathering of Religious Right leaders at Liberty University. Throughout the event Messianic Jewish violinist Maurice Sklar entertained the participants. The event included numerous apostles of the New Apostolic Reformation including Lou Engle, Rick Joyner, Harry Jackson, Cindy Jacobs, and Samuel Rodriguez.

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:54:30pm

re: #129 Bob Levin

Because BN is an actual elected official of a foreign nation. They don't do that.

#131

133 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:55:01pm

re: #129 Bob Levin

Because BN is an actual elected official of a foreign nation. They don't do that.

There is a difference between ought and is.

134 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:55:12pm

re: #129 Bob Levin

That's what makes it more newsworthy of course, a head of state getting scheduled for that is more than a little crazy.

If I were him I'd sue.

135 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:55:13pm

so they don't do that, except when they DO EXACTLY THAT

136 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:55:42pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

Close. If the right-wing Israeli politician assumed an international office, then the first thing he or she would have to do would be to apologize for this appearance.

But Netenyahu is already elected, in the only international position in Israeli politics.

137 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:56:17pm

re: #135 WindUpBird

He's not the head of state tho', he's the vice head of state!

138 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:56:43pm

re: #136 Bob Levin

I think the goalposts just broke the sound barrier, well done sir

139 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:57:12pm

re: #131 Gus 802

Danny Danon is equal to a city councilman here.

140 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:57:28pm

Bob, seriously, why is this so important to frame this way?

141 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:58:16pm

re: #139 Bob Levin

Danny Danon is equal to a city councilman here.

so is the Vice Prime Minister like, a dogcatcher

maybe he's the guy that sets out the cookies for the water board meeting

142 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:58:34pm

This is so simple. What's the date of the conference? If he speaks, he speaks. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

143 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:07pm

re: #136 Bob Levin

Avigdor Lieberman, the minister of foreign affairs, isn't in an international position?

144 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:09pm

re: #142 Bob Levin

This is so simple. What's the date of the conference? If he speaks, he speaks. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

so is there no such thing as an event confirmed before the date is finalized?

because apparently you've never seen a live music event, if you believe that

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:31pm

this is painful to watch XD

146 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:36pm

re: #139 Bob Levin

Danny Danon is equal to a city councilman here.

I wasn't referring to him I was referring to Vice Prime Minister and Minister of Strategic Affairs Moshe Ya'alon.

147 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:39pm

Now here is an example of a rumor: I heard this will be the official theme of Awakening 2012:

//

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 4:59:56pm

re: #147 Sergey Romanov

MUSTA KRAKEN!

149 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:00:12pm

re: #146 Gus 802

look over there!

150 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:00:14pm

re: #141 WindUpBird

Israel is the size of one large US city. Politics are extremely localized, except for Prime Minister.

151 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:00:45pm

re: #150 Bob Levin

Israel is the size of one large US city. Politics are extremely localized, except for Prime Minister.

you are being rolled like a joint, kind sir

152 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:01:06pm

re: #144 WindUpBird

When I signed up to go to Evo the last 2 years, I wasn't actually going until I was there.

Also, odn't bother with those ohGr tickets, the show doesn't exist~!

153 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:01:44pm

re: #142 Bob Levin

This is so simple. What's the date of the conference? If he speaks, he speaks. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

If they are lying, shouldn't Bibi tell them to take his name off the program, so as not to lend his credibility to the event?

154 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:01:55pm

re: #126 Bob Levin

Exactly. Folks specifically out to trash the President. And most likely, as everyone in the world knows, they are going to lose. Why on earth would a sitting head of Israel show up, even via video to this event? It's political suicide.

Hard for me to tell. On the one hand, these folks have a vested interest in saying that they're going to have Bibi, that Bibi loves them, etc. They could be lying. Or exaggerating. Wouldn't put it past them.

OTOH, Likud has been sloppy lately about the fine line between being nice to Republicans and being nice to nuts. I'm also not sure how clear that line is, from the Middle East. Bibi has been asked to make a phone address to some American conservatives. Bachmann and Perry are both attending. The fact that this is a TERRIBLE thing for Netanyahu to address actually has more to do with our current deranged political situation than with any actual norm.

If this is real, someone's gonna have to make that phone call.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:02:48pm

re: #127 WindUpBird

Why would it be political suicide for a right wing israeli politician to associate with the right-wing in the US?

First, 'right wing' does not mean one thing worldwide.

Second, Obama is going to win the upcoming election.

Third, Netanyahu holds office by means of a coalition.

156 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:04:59pm

re: #112 Bob Levin

Perfect, when is the date?

April 19-21, 2012.

157 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:05:01pm

re: #144 WindUpBird

You were going to tell me the date. If Netenyahu does not speak, you said you'll retract. If he speaks, then I'm wrong. What's the date?

158 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:05:59pm

re: #157 Bob Levin

You were going to tell me the date. If Netenyahu does not speak, you said you'll retract. If he speaks, then I'm wrong. What's the date?

I'm not planning to sit around for that.

**Limbers up letter-typing fingers.**

159 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:06:07pm

re: #156 Sergey Romanov

Fine, let's mark it on our calendars and pick up the discussion on April 22, 2012.

160 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:06:12pm

re: #156 Sergey Romanov

April 19-21, 2012.

And it's a video address.

161 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:06:34pm

re: #160 Gus 802

And it's a video address.

That doesn't change much.

162 celticdragon  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:06:43pm

re: #142 Bob Levin

This is so simple. What's the date of the conference? If he speaks, he speaks. If he doesn't, he doesn't.

My karma ran over my dogma...until it didn't.

163 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:08:24pm

re: #159 Bob Levin

You said that only the Prime Minister is an international figure in Israel.

This is the description of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

The Foreign Ministry formulates, implements and presents the foreign policy of the Government of Israel. It represents the state vis-a-vis foreign governments and international organizations, explains its positions and problems throughout the world, endeavors to promote its economic, cultural, and scientific relations, and fosters cooperation with developing countries. Israel currently maintains diplomatic relations with 162 countries. The Ministry promotes relations with Diaspora communities and safeguards the rights of Israeli citizens abroad.

Wouldn't you say that that means the Minister of Foreign Affairs is also an international figure?

And don't you think, if Bibi is not going to be a 'video speaker' at this conference he should tell them to remove his name and image from their speakers list?

164 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:08:28pm

Contact link for Netenyahu is located under "Update 1." Just in case you feel like writing him a "what are you crazy?" note.

165 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:08:44pm

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

Second, Obama is going to win the upcoming election.

Always an optimist :)

166 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:10:03pm

re: #165 Sergey Romanov

Always an optimist :)

2.1--If Obama does not win the election, odds are good the winner will not be Michelle Bachmann or Rick Perry.

167 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:12:13pm

I still can't get anybody saying why BN speaking to these folks is out of character, excepting the 'head of state' thing

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:13:02pm

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

First, 'right wing' does not mean one thing worldwide.

Second, Obama is going to win the upcoming election.

Third, Netanyahu holds office by means of a coalition.

well, of course it doesn't, but it's also not completely unbelievable, as Levin seems to believe, that Bibi would speak for these guys, they're part of the base of the GOP, they're not considered extremists by the average evangelical

169 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:13:13pm

re: #167 windsagio

I still can't get anybody saying why BN speaking to these folks is out of character, excepting the 'head of state' thing

this exactly

170 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:14:03pm

re: #86 Bob Levin

John Garfield. Everyone's talking as if Netenyahu has already given the speech. There's nothing about this anywhere, as far as I can see, except in this snippet in RWN. This is sounding like a case of guilt through rumor. That has some interesting implications.

Well, I've created (yet another) Google alert for this. So far I can't find any other confirmation besides the RWW story and the Awakening 2012 even site.

That said, I have to agree with Sergey regarding the difference between believing them when it comes to political things and believing them when it comes to conference schedules.

For example, I distrust Arutz Sheva as a news source and any story they publish that can't be corroborated by more neutral, mainstream outlets is not a story I would accept as true. However, if they were sponsoring a conference for right-wing Israelis and said President Obama was going to speak via video, I'd be inclined to believe them.

If the Freedom Federation is lying about the Awakening 2012 line-up for whatever reason and PM Netanyahu in fact is NOT going to speak, then he needs to get out in front of the story posthaste before it does serious damage.

171 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:14:51pm

re: #167 windsagio

Because he's not stupid. But on April 22, 2012, we'll know whether or not he's made a very stupid decision. And we'll know how trustworthy the organizers of the event are.

172 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:15:20pm

re: #159 Bob Levin

Fine, let's mark it on our calendars and pick up the discussion on April 22, 2012.

None of the things discussed above require this.

We've established that it's not a rumor and that the information is credible, until proven otherwise. So in principle our discussion of this information as serious does not really tell anything bad about us (responding to #86). (Although I must say that there's been some quirky sentiment shown on this thread... But that is a separate issue.)

How much this is a more innocent mistake by BN and his staff and how much a calculated move - remains to be seen, but the outrage is justified.

173 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:15:39pm

re: #171 Bob Levin

Why are you dodging my questions?

174 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:16:32pm

re: #170 CuriousLurker

Do you think there's enough here for a story?

175 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:17:32pm

re: #173 Obdicut

Didn't you say the last time we talked that you planned not to speak to me? I agreed it was a good plan. We don't communicate very well.

176 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:18:11pm

People spend more emotional energy on defending a foreign head of state than they do on actual important issues here.

It's just incomprehensible to me how people are so invested in this guy. None of us voted for him.

177 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:19:34pm

re: #175 Bob Levin

Didn't you say the last time we talked that you planned not to speak to me? I agreed it was a good plan. We don't communicate very well.

No, I didn't. That was your plan. Not mine.

Why are you dodging my questions?

178 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:20:01pm

re: #176 windsagio

My main issues are food, water, and the survival of the Jews and the State of Israel. I'm sure the US is safe.

179 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:20:59pm

re: #178 Bob Levin

My main issues are food, water, and the survival of the Jews and the State of Israel. I'm sure the US is safe.

funny, some of my friends are having trouble with that whole shelter and food thing, right here in Oregon

so glad you're doing okay, though!

180 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:21:17pm

re: #177 Obdicut

Go back and read the conversation. This is why I'm not answering you. And you know how to do that kind of search. I'm tech challenged.

181 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:22:15pm

[Link: freedomfederation.org...]

According to them,

In June, Mathew and Anita Staver, founders of Liberty Counsel, met privately with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. “I expressed the strong support of the American people for Israel,” said Mat Staver.

[Link: www.lc.org...]

The Liberty Counsel is a radical anti-gay hate group.

Either a lot of people are lying, or Bibi, whether naively or not, is meeting with some of the shittiest and most radical people in the religious right in the US.

182 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:22:41pm

ok this thread is getting all personal and bickering and stuff. i'm moving on.

183 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:22:53pm

re: #174 Bob Levin

Do you think there's enough here for a story?

I think RWW clearly thought there was. And if you notice, their headline was framed as a question, not stated as fact. They asked the question, stated what was on the schedule, who was attending, and then asked the question again at the end.

184 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:23:52pm

re: #179 WindUpBird

I'm sorry about that, truly. Post those things. I must miss those stories. Usually when I see your name, it comes up in a discussion about Israel. I'll be on the lookout for your other posts. I'm sorry I missed them.

185 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:24:05pm

Should say, the people that would get mad at Netanyahu for showing up at this aren't likely to be people that would (or could) vote for him anyways.

186 Obdicut  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:24:06pm

re: #180 Bob Levin

Go back and read the conversation. This is why I'm not answering you. And you know how to do that kind of search. I'm tech challenged.

What the hell are you talking about?

Here are my questions.

You stated that only the Prime Minister is in an international position in Israel. I'm asserting that Lieberman, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, is also in an international position, given that his entire brief is dealing with international affairs. Can you acknowledge that he, too, is in an international position.

Don't you think that if Bibi is not going to be a speaker at this conference, he should tell them not to use his name to publicize it, and to remove it from their page?

187 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:24:33pm

They have him on their flyer:

Image: 5x7_Front_9.jpg

188 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:25:31pm

re: #183 CuriousLurker

Then we're back to my feeling it's a rumor, as opposed to my accepting the word 'unsubstantiated'. Thanks, I missed that. I saw it, but I missed it.

189 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:25:45pm

re: #181 Obdicut

[Link: freedomfederation.org...]

According to them,

[Link: www.lc.org...]

The Liberty Counsel is a radical anti-gay hate group.

Either a lot of people are lying, or Bibi, whether naively or not, is meeting with some of the shittiest and most radical people in the religious right in the US.

Liberty Counsel Defends Marriage Against U.S. Senate Democrats
November 2, 2011

Washington, DC – Liberty Counsel Action is informing Senators that its members do not want the Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) repealed and that it will be including the vote in its scorecard. S.598 would repeal DOMA. Democrats have scheduled a vote on it tomorrow in the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee. This bill would require the federal government to recognize same-sex preferences within states where it is legal and also allow the courts to impose this new definition of marriage in those states. Specifically, the repeal of DOMA would have a national impact as same-sex preferences would be encouraged by our national government, in conflict with 30 current states’ policies.

Continues.

190 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:25:56pm

re: #184 Bob Levin

WUB actually almost always lies low in Israel discussion, this is the first time I've seen him really get into it recently (excepting making fun of the 'make you our dogs' thing)

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:27:30pm

re: #184 Bob Levin

I'm sorry about that, truly. Post those things. I must miss those stories. Usually when I see your name, it comes up in a discussion about Israel. I'll be on the lookout for your other posts. I'm sorry I missed them.

Whatever hash you're eating, PLEASE give me some of it

192 CuriousLurker  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:29:49pm

re: #188 Bob Levin

Then we're back to my feeling it's a rumor, as opposed to my accepting the word 'unsubstantiated'. Thanks, I missed that. I saw it, but I missed it.

I missed it the first time around too—it's subtle—but my antennae are on high alert these days. In any event, now that it's out there the PM needs to address it, IMO.

Anyway, I have a web site I need to make some updates to, so I'm going to bow out.

193 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:32:27pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

You've only posted 33 items. I try to stay away from very active threads like this. And you've been here for over two years. So post more stories about life in Oregon, the issues that concern you.

194 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:32:59pm

re: #188 Bob Levin

Then we're back to my feeling it's a rumor, as opposed to my accepting the word 'unsubstantiated'. Thanks, I missed that. I saw it, but I missed it.

I'm back last time to address this. This is BS, sorry. It's neither a rumor nor unsubstantiated and RWW has nothing whatsoever to do with this. It's all on the Freedom Federation's site. Once again, slowly: it's an official announcement (plus an official flyer) on an official site. Thus it cannot be a "rumor". OK, out.

195 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:33:34pm

re: #193 Bob Levin

wait what?

Oh, PAGES.

Pages are kind of the dark underbelly of LGF anyways. I'd point to the 28 thousand comments, many of which relate to the people getting fucked by the man.

196 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:34:32pm

re: #193 Bob Levin

You've only posted 33 items. I try to stay away from very active threads like this. And you've been here for over two years. So post more stories about life in Oregon, the issues that concern you.

hahah adjust your internets, grandpa

197 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:36:54pm

I'm kind of disturbed, wub has posted 7000 more times than me.

198 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:37:24pm

re: #195 windsagio

I don't read the long threads. I read this site for news. If I get into a long conversation, it's usually with just a few people, and the conversations move slowly. Now, WUB has made quite a few comments, thousands, but has only posted a few news stories. So, we're always in different places on this site.

199 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:37:59pm

re: #196 WindUpBird

Yep, I'm an old guy.

200 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:38:31pm

re: #193 Bob Levin

You've only posted 33 items. I try to stay away from very active threads like this. And you've been here for over two years. So post more stories about life in Oregon, the issues that concern you.

You know what concerns me?

Benjamin Netanyahu, an esteemed leader of our ally israel, fraternizing with fag bashing right-wing garbage. :)

because I'm queer. This concerns me more than it does you.

201 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:41:46pm

re: #200 WindUpBird

That's why we're going to wait until April 22 to see if he really is doing this. You all are believing it's going to happen. I'm not believing it.

202 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:45:09pm

re: #201 Bob Levin

That's why we're going to wait until April 22 to see if he really is doing this. You all are believing it's going to happen. I'm not believing it.

Believe it or don't, but it concerns me. And I don't really care what you believe, since you don't seem to be terribly credible, given the level of goalpost moving and cheerleading you have done on this thread. You're not an expert, you're a cheerleader.

203 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:47:09pm

re: #194 Sergey Romanov

I know that you're doing something else, but, I still don't know why I should believe this information. Let's say I email Netenyahu's office. I'm going to say, there's a rumor circulating that you're going to speak at this event. If this is true, please don't do it, as these are not friends of Israel or the Jewish people.

204 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:48:02pm

re: #202 WindUpBird

But don't you know, the Arabs hate gays! That's the real thing you should be concerning yourself with, you homo!

205 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:50:05pm

re: #202 WindUpBird

You're not an expert, you're a cheerleader.

On this matter I'm closer to an expert, and you're closer to a cheerleader. But you've pretty much listed why there's not much point in us talking. If I'm not credible, don't bother with me.

206 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:51:17pm

re: #204 windsagio

Dude, you and I talked for a long time a few days ago. This is not how it went, and you know this.

207 blueraven  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:52:08pm

re: #203 Bob Levin

I know that you're doing something else, but, I still don't know why I should believe this information. Let's say I email Netenyahu's office. I'm going to say, there's a rumor circulating that you're going to speak at this event. If this is true, please don't do it, as these are not friends of Israel or the Jewish people.

It would be more accurate to say, in your email

The Awakening 2012 event has you listed as a confirmed video speaker. Is this true? If so, it is a very bad idea.

208 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:52:10pm

re: #206 Bob Levin

its a reference to somebody else that sometimes chimes in on this discussion :p

209 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:52:41pm

re: #207 blueraven

That's good too.

210 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 5:54:31pm

re: #207 blueraven

But you had to ask--is this true? Really, that's my whole point.

211 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:12:45pm

re: #182 Sergey Romanov

How did you change the font size? That was pretty cool.

212 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:16:56pm

re: #211 Bob Levin

How did you change the font size? That was pretty cool.

< sub > Test here. < / sub >

Without the spaces.

Like this.

That's "subscript". "Sup" works similarly as "superscript". Sub is low and sup is high.

SUBTEXT

SUPTEXT

213 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:18:30pm

re: #178 Bob Levin

I need to amend this. Now that I have time.

What I meant to say is that my concerns are clean water for people in every nation, an adequate supply of food, the survival of the Jewish People and the State of Israel. I read enough about these things to feel confident when I post stories on these subjects. Other subjects are handled more than ably by a number of people, and I'm grateful. I feel I can hold up my end on these particular subjects, though.

214 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:23:28pm

re: #212 Gus 802

So you have to know a little bit about HTML?

Okay 2 .

And let's see .

Magic.

215 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:39:08pm

re: #176 windsagio

People spend more emotional energy on defending a foreign head of state than they do on actual important issues here.

It's just incomprehensible to me how people are so invested in this guy. None of us voted for him.

I'm invested in Netanyahu because, whether I like it, or him, or not, dumbass choices he makes will actually impact the Middle East, particularly Israel and the West Bank and Gaza, and I am deeply invested as a result in his not fucking up too terribly badly.

And by 'people', are you speaking of anyone except Bob?

216 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:41:11pm

re: #190 windsagio

WUB actually almost always lies low in Israel discussion, this is the first time I've seen him really get into it recently (excepting making fun of the 'make you our dogs' thing)

That was so very very funny.

217 blueraven  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:48:12pm

re: #210 Bob Levin

But you had to ask--is this true? Really, that's my whole point.

Its not a rumor that he is listed on the event promotions as a confirmed speaker.

218 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 6:50:58pm

re: #217 blueraven

I would like to point out what the State Department thought of Netanyahu, from Wikileaks:

Benjamin Netanyahu is "elegant and charming", according to a cable apparently penned by an official at the U.S. embassy in Egypt, "but never keeps his promises".

Interesting....

219 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 8:17:37pm

re: #176 windsagio

People spend more emotional energy on defending a foreign head of state than they do on actual important issues here.

It's just incomprehensible to me how people are so invested in this guy. None of us voted for him.

I've always thought him "one of us" as far as conservatives go. This meeting might bother me a little, but it would take something far worse to turn my head. Frankly, it'd have to be the classic "dead woman or live boy".

220 BishopX  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 9:13:27pm

So this is comment #220, and for the past 100 odd comments we have been posting exclusively about BN's attendance. I would like to point out that there are three Israeli officials slated to speak here. The other two spoke at this event last year as well (or is that a rumor too?).

Assuming that Bob Levin is right about BN, it is outrageous that sitting members of a foreign government are speaking at what will essentially be a campaign event on US soil.

221 windsagio  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 9:27:50pm

re: #216 SanFranciscoZionist

yeah it really was :p

222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 9:33:52pm

re: #205 Bob Levin

On this matter I'm closer to an expert, and you're closer to a cheerleader. But you've pretty much listed why there's not much point in us talking. If I'm not credible, don't bother with me.

I'm totally a cheerleader for equal rights, it is true. For me to be an 'expert" I'd have to be a lawyer.

have fun with your apologizin'!

223 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 9:35:02pm

re: #219 Dark_Falcon

I've always thought him "one of us" as far as conservatives go. This meeting might bother me a little, but it would take something far worse to turn my head. Frankly, it'd have to be the classic "dead woman or live boy".

To me, it's as if he were attending a klan rally.

But you're straight, so you don't care :)

224 Gus  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 10:31:41pm

Incidentally. The event is largely being put on by Liberty Council. Scheduled to speak at this event is Liberty Council President, Mat Staver. Read on:

Liberty Counsel president Mat Staver baselessly asserted Florida mayor was hostile to Christianity because he was Jewish

From the December 16 [2004] edition of FOX News Live:

MAT STAVER: This case, really, talks about the essence of Christmas. Christmas is still constitutional. What happened in this case, it appears, is that the mayor had absolute hostility toward the religious, specifically the Christian, viewpoint of the nativity scene. In this case, the mayor was persistent over several months. The city council cancelled meetings, walked out when this issue came up, in fact, the mayor--

BRIGITTE QUINN (anchor): Mat, why was he hostile?

STAVER: Well, the mayor is apparently Jewish. Unfortunately, this looks like the mayor's particular vendetta against the nativity scene.

225 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:05:51pm

re: #217 blueraven

But why is the issue with Netenyahu, why are the event planners assumed to be accurate? Why can't you assume that something is screwy, and just wait until more information comes out, or wait until the event before you pass judgment?

226 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:09:46pm

re: #222 WindUpBird

I don't recall ever insulting you. A bit of a bully, aren't you?

227 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:19:10pm

re: #220 BishopX

Yep, it's a bad move.

228 Bob Levin  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:25:55pm

re: #218 ProLifeLiberal

That's no secret. They've never liked him. But then again, many Israelis and Jews are no fans of the State Department, or the UN.

229 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:45:08pm

re: #228 Bob Levin

I'll be blunt.

He's a slimeball.

230 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:45:19pm

Jumping in late, not the least bit surprised:

Netanyahu addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being the target by in the cross-hairs of a sniper. Rabin accused Netanyahu of provoking violence, a charge which Netanyahu strenuously denied.

231 ProGunLiberal  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:47:41pm

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

Okay, worse than a slimeball.

An asshole who is similar in style to Rush Limbaugh.

232 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Nov 3, 2011 11:57:39pm

re: #231 ProLifeLiberal

It's a curious thing about Bibi. I really don't like the man's politics, at all, but I'm not his demographic. I understand how he can be charismatic to conservatives. He's intelligent, articulate and handsome.

He's also an evil, scapegoating liar. We saw what he did to Rabin and that was a fellow Jew, and Israeli head of state. So when he lied not too long ago about Obama's speech I wasn't too surprised. This too, if it comes to pass, will be entirely in character.

Israel is generally very forgiving, not just of Jews but in general. The fact is that it does treat its prisoners and enemies far better than all other governments in the region. This trend towards forgiveness, combined with an absolute dearth of competitive leadership on the Israeli political right has allowed Netanyahu to rehabilitate his image to a degree that would probably also be impossible anywhere else.

233 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:10:39am

re: #229 ProLifeLiberal

List some Israeli politicians you like, and add your reasons why you like them--please.

234 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:15:02am

re: #233 Bob Levin

I'm not in Israel, and have not need to choose politicians in another nation. I suppose I might go with Kadima, but I not familiar with Israeli Politics.

However, the knowledge I had before, combined with what I just learned from Frank, tell me one thing:

Netanyahu is a despicable human being.

235 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:36:23am

re: #234 ProLifeLiberal

I've just been reading biographical information on Netenyahu, and I'm not coming to the same conclusions as Frank. I was looking through Wikipedia, so it's not that difficult to find. I don't expect politicians to be pure, and he certainly isn't pure.

No one in Israel would have imagined the possibility of an assassination, and acts of civil violence are rare, but they happen occasionally, and no one is proud of this. The recent demonstrations in Israel have been peaceful, and that is the expected behavior. The demonstrations have also been huge.

Netenyahu was also instrumental in the turnaround of the Israeli economy, and this had indeed been spectacular. However, the turnaround has not been without problems, which are the cause of the recent demonstrations.

All you need to do is check Wikipedia for more details.

236 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:38:33am

Gus, you write:

From LGF member Simoom we now learn that Israel’s Vice Prime Minister Moshe Ya’alon will also attend:

However, you link to 2010 schedule.

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:07:34am

re: #230 goddamnedfrank

Jumping in late, not the least bit surprised:

but he totally would NEVER associate with american dominionists NEVER EVER

238 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:10:13am

re: #235 Bob Levin

Isn't like one of the worst things ever to do in Jewish circles to compare somebody to a Nazi?

Like in general circles we make fun of people that do that, but isn't it a deathly deathly insult?

240 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:22:36am

I'll never forget in the mid 90's that Netanyahu all but directly advocated Rabin's death, and then became the next PM.

That is demons work.

241 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:27:51am

re: #235 Bob Levin

No one in Israel would have imagined the possibility of an assassination ...

Except of course for Rabin, who "accused Netanyahu of provoking violence." Also, of course, the assassination plotters.

So both the victim and the killers seemed to have gotten the message loud and clear.

242 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 2:08:01am

re: #238 windsagio

Yes, it is. And everyone involved in that period of time has to deal with their conscience. There are other bits of what I would call soulful pain that they must also deal with. It was a terrible period, no question about it. And there are ripples from these events that all Jews must still deal with.

243 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 2:30:18am

re: #240 windsagio

The Assassination of Rabin

Twenty-five year old Yigal Amir had wanted to kill Yitzhak Rabin for months. Amir, who had grown up as an Orthodox Jew in Israel, believed that Rabin was trying to give Israel back to the Arabs. Thus, Amir viewed Rabin as a traitor, an enemy.

Determined to kill Rabin and hopefully end the Middle East peace talks, Amir took his Beretta pistol and tried to get close to Rabin. After several failed attempts, Amir got lucky on November 4, 1995.

At the Kings of Israel Square in Tel Aviv, Israel, a peace rally in support of Rabin's peace negotiations was being held. Rabin was going to be there, along with approximately 100,000 supporters.

Amir, who was posing as a VIP driver, sat idly by a flower planter near Rabin's car as he waited for Rabin. Security agents never double checked Amir's identity nor questioned Amir's story.

At the end of the rally, Rabin descended down a set of stairs, heading from city hall to his waiting car. As Rabin passed Amir, who was now standing, Amir fired his gun at Rabin. Three shots rang out at very close range.

Two of the shots hit Rabin; the other hit a security guard. Rabin was rushed to the nearby Ichilov Hospital but his wounds proved too serious. Rabin was soon declared dead.

Immediately after the shooting, Amir was apprehended. Amir confessed to assassinating Rabin and never showed remorse. In March 1996, Amir was found guilty and sentenced to life in prison, plus extra years for shooting the security guard.

Netanyahu did not light the terrible flames of that period. Nor did he try to put them out. As is the theme of much of Jewish History, no one thought events would lead where they did. Amir followed his own inner voices. To lay this at the feet of Netanyahu, when Sergey's video (which I can't translate) shows the acceleration of a mob mentality, is not at all accurate.

244 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 2:44:23am

re: #241 goddamnedfrank

So you're interpreting Rabin's statement to mean 'assassination' as opposed to, say, vandalism and riots. I think he meant vandalism and riots. It's interesting that the conversation has gone here, because today is the anniversary of the event.

Am I imagining things, or did this discussion about whether Netenyahu will make a speech, somehow descend into accusations that Netenyahu is guilty of murder and in league with the devil?

245 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 2:49:20am

re: #241 goddamnedfrank

So both the victim and the killers seemed to have gotten the message loud and clear.

So, before Netenyahu spoke, no one had this in mind? I don't think that is the case.

246 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:27:09am

re: #243 Bob Levin

Netanyahu did not light the terrible flames of that period. Nor did he try to put them out. As is the theme of much of Jewish History, no one thought events would lead where they did. Amir followed his own inner voices. To lay this at the feet of Netanyahu, when Sergey's video (which I can't translate) shows the acceleration of a mob mentality, is not at all accurate.

To bring the discussion back on topic, given that PM Netanyahu has past personal experience in the not so distant past with how tragic the outcome can be when religious extremism is mixed with domestic politics, it would be all the more egregiously irresponsible for him to involve himself with these Awakening 2012 people in any way.

There are far too many parallels between the present and the events of 16 years ago—not only the religious extremism and polarized, toxic political climate, but also the violent imagery, angry crowds, and people who view our President as a traitor or usurper who is giving our country away to some shadowy enemy intent on their destruction. The similarities are chilling when you think about it.

This is in addition to the other possible negative repercussions I mentioned way back in my comments #8 and #12. If they're smart, PM Netanyahu and any other high level Israeli government representatives will avoid direct involvement—or even the appearance of involvement—in the 2012 race like the the plague.

247 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 4:47:50am

re: #246 CuriousLurker

I've never disagreed with you. However if you read the link in my comment 245, many Israelis and Israeli politicians have worked hard to make sure the horror of 1995 can never happen again. There is more work to be done. Certain Israeli political parties are illegal as a result of the work that has been done. Among those politicians working to correct matter, Benjamin Netenyahu.

But that's almost an anticlimactic point. Most significant, to me, is the direction the conversation took. That off topic, to which you allude, is telling. But we've discussed this direction before. The snowball rolls, and presto, we're in league with demons, replete with horns and tails, presto, we're guilty of capital crimes with no evidence. After all, of course there was an Israeli investigation into the events leading up to that terrible day (12th of the month if you're on lunar time). And yet there is this fiction that the Prime Minister of Israel is up to his neck in guilt, despite no such finding from the investigative commission.

Now that's a story. Unfortunately, it's an old story. Dog bites man.

248 Gus  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:31:29am

re: #236 Sergey Romanov

Gus, you write:

However, you link to 2010 schedule.

Thanks. Fixed updates 2 and 3.

249 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:33:56am

re: #248 Gus 802

Thanks. Fixed updates 2 and 3.

Thanks, Gus.

250 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:38:01am

re: #247 Bob Levin

Bob, I think a bit of over-demonizing of Bibi might be going on here. But frankly, I don't want to defend someone who thinks that discussing "Israeli Arab demographic threat" is fine and dandy. Note also, that condemnation of Bibi is not condemnation of Israel, much less of Jews. Israel is a great democracy and that means that there's a chance someone better than Bibi will arrive a bit later.

251 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 8:55:20am

Heh. Can't believe this thing collected 250 comments without getting promoted.

252 simoom  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 9:24:41am

re: #236 Sergey Romanov

However, you link to 2010 schedule.

Good catch. I got to the schedule through a Google search of the site and somehow missed the bolded date at the top. Sorry about the mix-up.

253 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 11:58:54am

re: #247 Bob Levin

Again, I find myself in agreement with Sergey. Things may have gotten a bit hyperbolic which they are wont to do here at LGF, but I think in this case it has more to do with loathing of the American far-right (which has for all intents & purposes become the GOP mainstream) and anyone who would ally themselves with them than with anti-Semitism or anti-Israel sentiment.

Also, keep in mind that it was less than a year ago that there was an attempted assassination of one of our own politicians, Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, who is Jewish. When that happened everyone rallied around her, and any politicians on the right who'd used violent imagery or language were pilloried. This was especially true for those who were already intensely disliked, like Sarah Palin, who is not Jewish (though she shamelessly tired to claim blood libel).

254 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:25:22pm

re: #245 Bob Levin

So, before Netenyahu spoke, no one had this in mind?

Is that what I said? No, it's not.

Netanyahu did not light the terrible flames of that period. Nor did he try to put them out.

This incredibly weak language implies that he was somehow passive in their presence when the record shows he actively fanned the flames, fed them, and that he sought to legitimize the hatred at their base. When he said that Rabin's government was “removed from Jewish tradition ... and Jewish values,” what other purpose did that statement have in that environment than to "other" Rabin? Of course it wasn't an overt call to assassination, but that doesn't prove much since calls for assassination are almost always coded and covert. That didn't keep it from being dangerous and despicable nor from being identified as dangerous and despicable by the very person who was later assassinated.

255 Bob Levin  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:08:07pm

re: #250 Sergey Romanov

re: #253 CuriousLurker

Both of you know exactly what you saw, and you tried to pull back the reins. But Frank just couldn't let that happen. He wouldn't let you two douse the flames. He's fanning like a windmill. Hey, this is what it is. At the base, this isn't even about Bibi. How do we know this? His last comment about Israeli culture and politics completely ignores everything about Israeli culture and politics.

If you want to have a discussion about the political career of Netanyahu, I could do it and it wouldn't go here. Not only that, you'd come out of it better informed. You come out of this discussion needing a shower.

There's nothing more to say.

256 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:16:56pm

It's really hard to not compare Netanyahu to Huckabee, or maybe somebody similar.

Savvy charming politician whose base is solidly placed within the hardcore religious right, but really primarily cares about winning, and will play negative/dangerous opinions as much as he has to in order to get/maintain power.

257 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:19:32pm

re: #255 Bob Levin

He's fanning like a windmill.

LOL!

258 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 1:45:32pm

re: #257 goddamnedfrank

hahaha you win sir :D

259 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 2:00:45pm

re: #255 Bob Levin

There's nothing more to say.

Okay, maybe another day on some other Page. Talk to you later.

260 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 5:42:31pm

Why was this put up on the featured pages after all the blood letting was already over with? Nothing here to even whet my knives for anymore...damn!

*Goes of to sulk in a corner and grumble about life's unfairness*

261 Obdicut  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 5:45:18pm

re: #260 ausador

I emailed the Prime Minister's office to ask if he really was a featured speaker. No response. No idea how else to get clarity on this.

262 CuriousLurker  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 5:46:48pm

re: #260 ausador

Pfft—amateur. //

263 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 5:47:07pm

re: #260 ausador

its been a featured page for a few days now, as far as I can tell, it scrolls down, then somebody in charge puts it up at the top again :D

264 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 5:48:43pm

re: #263 windsagio

its been a featured page for a few days now, as far as I can tell, it scrolls down, then somebody in charge puts it up at the top again :D

Thanks, guess I'm just blind, or at least not paying as much attention as I should have been.

265 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:28:13pm

re: #263 windsagio

That's what happens when a page manages to garner over 250 comments.

266 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:28:25pm

I am still intensely curious about what it is that would make any Jew cozy up to Evangelical Christians whose only aim is to see them all betrayed by the Anti-Christ and then die horribly (except for the converted) so as to bring about the new Thousand Year Reign of Jesus...(hmm that sounds familiar from somewhere Reign=Reich?...naw getting too close to a Godwin?)

I have been there, I have been one of them, I was raised as one of them, Jews are misguided and ignorant fools who will not acknowledge that the messiah of their own prophecies has come and gone and they just misinterpreted their own scripture so badly that they were unable to recognize Jesus for what he was.

With the re-establishment of a Jewish state all we lack now is the rebuilding of the Temple to start the doomsday clock to Armageddon which these people actually hope and pray for almost daily. I know that idiots make all kinds of end of the world predictions and second coming of Jesus predictions all the time, don't let that fool you.

The vast majority of fringe evangelicals in the United States are waiting with baited breath for the only thing that can satisfy the prophecies that they have been taught. The rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem. That starts the doomsdays clock, from there on everything (they think) can be predicted almost to the day, until the very final cataclysmic end of the world. (actually it supposedly can be predicted exactly to the day once Israel signs a protection treaty with the anti-Christ, but that is the subject for another post).

Why glad hand and pander to people whose only reason for supporting you is the secret hope of blissfully watching you die in agony later? The Christian Right will support Israel (and so will the Christian Left) right up to the point that Solomon's temple is re-built after that you are on your effing own. We will sit here on our side of the ocean and watch and wait for the Anti-Christ to come bail you out, at least as long as the Christians have control of the government anyway.

These people do not support Israel, they want to see Israel destroyed, because that is all part of Gods plan...sigh.

I would hope that the Israeli's actually understand all this, because they better, their lives may some day depend on it.

267 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:32:39pm

re: #266 ausador

What you just wrote should be an Opinion Page on this issue.

I don't even see a need to expand on it. Just copy and paste this over into a page.

268 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:34:38pm

re: #266 ausador

we've covered this, Likud sees kindred spirits.

269 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:36:29pm

re: #268 windsagio

Help me to convince Ausador to make this comment a page please.

270 windsagio  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:37:08pm

re: #269 ProLifeLiberal

Help me to convince Ausador to make this comment a page please.

Ausador, you should totally make this a page.

/I don't think he'll much listen to me tho :p

271 ProGunLiberal  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:39:03pm

re: #270 windsagio

It's a start.

272 Archangelus  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 6:40:35pm

re: #267 ProLifeLiberal

What you just wrote should be an Opinion Page on this issue.

I don't even see a need to expand on it. Just copy and paste this over into a page.

This.

273 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 7:23:33pm

re: #266 ausador

Prophecies aren't real, however help is. That's all there is to it. It's not hard.

274 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Fri, Nov 4, 2011 7:29:15pm

re: #273 Sergey Romanov

Prophecies aren't real, however help is. That's all there is to it. It's not hard.

Prophecies are real if people act on them as if they were. But I do understand your point.


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