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1 aagcobb  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 12:26:54pm

Well duh. It will be really fun watching the wingnut heads explode when the SCOTUS affirms the Constitutionality of the individual mandate.

2 KingKenrod  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 1:32:33pm
It certainly is an encroachment on individual liberty, but it is no more so than a command that restaurants or hotels are obliged to serve all customers regardless of race, that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain, or that a farmer cannot grow enough wheat to support his own family.

How unbelievably unpersuasive. All of these examples assume action: owning & running a hotel, seeking treatment in the healthcare market, or growing wheat. So calling it “no more so” an encroachment is flatly false: it is “more so”.

Also it’s nice of the justice to admit this is an automatic encroachment of the liberty of every single person in the US, in case there was any doubt about the reach. If this particular case is reviewed by the Supreme Court, the justices will surely take note of that.

3 blueraven  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:05:51pm

re: #2 KingKenrod

How unbelievably unpersuasive. All of these examples assume action: owning & running a hotel, seeking treatment in the healthcare market, or growing wheat. So calling it “no more so” an encroachment is flatly false: it is “more so”.

Also it’s nice of the justice to admit this is an automatic encroachment of the liberty of every single person in the US, in case there was any doubt about the reach. If this particular case is reviewed by the Supreme Court, the justices will surely take note of that.

Are you an attorney?

Also, I read the part “that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain” as possibly referring to medical marijuana laws.
Isn’t that a restriction on our liberty?

We all seek medical attention at some time in our life, so there is presumed action.

4 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:23:59pm

re: #1 aagcobb

Well duh. It will be really fun watching the wingnut heads explode when the SCOTUS affirms the Constitutionality of the individual mandate.

A dramatic and (to me) unwelcome expansion of power that will not stop at medical reform. not a chance. {Head intact}

5 KingKenrod  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:34:37pm

re: #3 blueraven

Are you an attorney?

Also, I read the part “that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain” as possibly referring to medical marijuana laws.
Isn’t that a restriction on our liberty?

Not an attorney. For medical marijuana, yes it’s a restriction on your liberty, but it is regulation of a market that requires willing participants to exist. No one ever got thrown in jail for wanting to buy pot, it’s only when they try to buy it or sell it that there is a sanction.

We all seek medical attention at some time in our life, so there is presumed action.

Fine, then impose the mandate when someone seeks medical attention. If everyone eventually seeks medical attention, it shouldn’t take too long for the mandate to apply to everyone, right?

6 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:40:19pm

re: #3 blueraven

Are you an attorney?

Also, I read the part “that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain” as possibly referring to medical marijuana laws.
Isn’t that a restriction on our liberty?

We all seek medical attention at some time in our life, so there is presumed action.

We all must seek food and drink every day. I don’t see where that means I can be compelled to buy my food via a government program. I prefer a well regulated marketplace for my food and water.

7 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:43:32pm

re: #4 Rightwingconspirator

A dramatic and (to me) unwelcome expansion of power that will not stop at medical reform. not a chance. {Head intact}

There’s a difference between laws that you think are unwise and don’t like and those that are unconstitutional.

Silberman very concisely killed the unconstitutionality argument.

8 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:45:31pm

re: #6 Rightwingconspirator

We all must seek food and drink every day. I don’t see where that means I can be compelled to buy my food via a government program. I prefer a well regulated marketplace for my food and water.

Arguing against imaginary laws doesn’t help you get real ones overturned.

Real judges pretty much insist that you match up the real law with the Constitution.

9 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:46:50pm

It certainly is an encroachment on individual liberty, but it is no more so than a command that restaurants or hotels are obliged to serve all customers regardless of race, that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain, or that a farmer cannot grow enough wheat to support his own family. The right to be free from federal regulation is not absolute, and yields to the imperative that Congress be free to forge national solutions to national problems, no matter how local–or seemingly passive–their individual origins.

What utter crap. By this “logic” we need not have state laws at all. just impose Congressional mandates and regulations from transportation and speed limits right down to building codes. Bah.

10 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:51:46pm

re: #9 Rightwingconspirator

It certainly is an encroachment on individual liberty, but it is no more so than a command that restaurants or hotels are obliged to serve all customers regardless of race, that gravely ill individuals cannot use a substance their doctors described as the only effective palliative for excruciating pain, or that a farmer cannot grow enough wheat to support his own family. The right to be free from federal regulation is not absolute, and yields to the imperative that Congress be free to forge national solutions to national problems, no matter how local–or seemingly passive–their individual origins.

What utter crap. By this “logic” we need not have state laws at all. just impose Congressional mandates and regulations from transportation and speed limits right down to building codes. Bah.

The framers gave Congress the right to regulate interstate commerce.

Again, just because you don’t like a law doesn’t make it unconstitutional. Silberman is a pretty conservative judge, but he is playing it very straight here.

11 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:53:05pm

re: #8 garhighway

Arguing against imaginary laws doesn’t help you get real ones overturned.

Real judges pretty much insist that you match up the real law with the Constitution.

Analogy has it’s limitations yet is still often useful. As soon as the mandate is approved, it is not an imaginary law. Neither is the commerce clause.

12 KingKenrod  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:54:23pm

re: #7 garhighway

There’s a difference between laws that you think are unwise and don’t like and those that are unconstitutional.

Silberman very concisely killed the unconstitutionality argument.

I already pointed out an obvious flaw in Silberman’s reasoning. If this is evidence of a “concise” mind, I feel sorry for the folks who have gone before his bench. He even followed that up with a straw man (“The right to be free from federal regulation is not absolute”. Who said it was? What does that have to do with justifying a particular exercise of state power?).

13 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:56:13pm

The imaginary law is the one mandating you buy govt food.

I know you don’t like it, but Silberman got this right. You may like the law or you may hate it, but as an exercise in constitutional law it just isn’t that tricky.

14 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:57:36pm

re: #10 garhighway

The framers gave Congress the right to regulate interstate commerce.

Again, just because you don’t like a law doesn’t make it unconstitutional. Silberman is a pretty conservative judge, but he is playing it very straight here.

I don’t care if he is conservative or not. His thinking here flies in the face of a larger and longer term logic, we are now pandering to the perceived necessity of going this route for medical reform.

Lets look at perceived necessity in the last 70 years or so. As in Manzanar. were those judges playing it straight, or giving in to a perc3eived necessity?

15 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:59:27pm

re: #13 garhighway

The imaginary law is the one mandating you buy govt food.

I know you don’t like it, but Silberman got this right. You may like the law or you may hate it, but as an exercise in constitutional law it just isn’t that tricky.

The real law is the mandate. the rest is a reasonable extension of the logic that we all must seek medical help at some time. Which has no real limits at the point SCOTUS approves, heaven forbid.

16 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 2:59:50pm

re: #12 KingKenrod

I already pointed out an obvious flaw in Silberman’s reasoning. If this is evidence of a “concise” mind, I feel sorry for the folks who have gone before his bench. He even followed that up with a straw man (“The right to be free from federal regulation is not absolute”. Who said it was? What does that have to do with justifying a particular exercise of state power?).

You have pointed out something about his reasoning you don’t like. A flaw? Not so much. Congress passes laws that infringe on our liberties all the time, for all kinds of reasons. That is no trump card. Like it or not (and you clearly don’t like it) their Commerce Clause power is pretty damn broad. And when they legislate in that space, they are almost always infringing someone’s liberty. if you and enough other people hate it, it’ll get repealed. That’s a political question. But unconstitutional? Nope.

17 garhighway  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 3:01:16pm

re: #15 Rightwingconspirator

The real law is the mandate. the rest is a reasonable extension of the logic that we all must seek medical help at some time. Which has no real limits at the point SCOTUS approves, heaven forbid.

For what it’s worth, I think it’ll be a close call. Scalia, Thomas, Alito and Roberts are political justices. They will ignore precedent and vote no. It’s up to Kennedy, again.

18 Political Atheist  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 5:10:05pm

re: #17 garhighway

I complained enough above, so I’ll say what I advocate instead of this awful mandate. I like the public utility model. A large Federal (minimum requirements) and then state regulatory system to adjust for local needs, with private providers doing the work. just like land phones, water, electricity and gas. That is a proven model. Far from perfect, yet very few go wanting for any utility.

19 mr.fusion  Tue, Nov 8, 2011 7:51:36pm

re: #16 garhighway

Congress passes laws that infringe on our liberties all the time, for all kinds of reasons.

Not only that, but they punish you come April for “non-action” all the time. If you rent you pay more in taxes than someone with a mortgage. You are being “punished” for not having a mortgage, yet no one calls that a mandate to have a mortgage. If you don’t have children then you pay more in taxes than someone who does have children. Still, no one is running around saying that the government is mandating that we all have children……

20 garhighway  Wed, Nov 9, 2011 6:12:53am

re: #18 Rightwingconspirator

I complained enough above, so I’ll say what I advocate instead of this awful mandate. I like the public utility model. A large Federal (minimum requirements) and then state regulatory system to adjust for local needs, with private providers doing the work. just like land phones, water, electricity and gas. That is a proven model. Far from perfect, yet very few go wanting for any utility.

If I understand your model right, it would be that the government tells the carriers what to cover and not cover and what to charge? That what it sounds like.

Assuming for a minute you get rid of the restriction on pre-existing conditions as part of that, then why would a healthy young person buy the coverage? To extend the utility metaphor, they buy electricity because they want it. But wouldn’t they look at those health insurance dollars as money they don’t need to spend. And if the young and healthy abandon the pool of ratepayers, what happens to the rate calculations for everyone else?


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