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1 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 10:54:59am

That is not the issue at hand.

Let us say that a restaurant was somehow getting around the civil rights act, and refusing to serve blacks. Would you eat there? After all if you don't others still will. There is no proof that if you stand on your principles the restaurant owner will suffer at all. The same amount of food will be served, with or without you.

No, you would stand on your convictions. You would stand on the right side and support the restaurants that are NOT racist.

Ethical oil is about going to the restaurant that is not racist. That is not supporting terror. That is not hurting women. That is not anti-semitic.

NOT that doing so will really hurt the Saudis. They will still sell the same amount of oil.

The other argument is that by depending on countries that have in the past used oil as a weapon you are allowing yourself to be blackmailed.

Also it is possible to replace all of the Saudi oil imported by the US, and therefore not "mix it".

2 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 10:58:12am
needs to be cut with lighter oils from places like Saudi Arabia in order to be transported down a pipeline

I guess it is important to point out that this is simply not true. Canada (Alberta) does NOT import oil from Saudi Arabia. The oil it can mix in (if that were true) would come from light crude pumped today in Saskatchewan or Manitoba. Still Ethical.

3 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 11:22:00am

Americans4OPEC statement (emphasis added by me), which is available on their website:

“For more than 40 years, we Americans have powered our businesses, fueled our cars, and made our lives more comfortable with the help of OPEC oil.

We think that special relationship is worth protecting.

That’s why we’ve started a new group to do just that: Americans4OPEC. Currently, the Obama Administration is on the verge of approving a pipeline that could deliver nearly a million barrels of Canada’s “oil sands” oil to American markets every single day, reducing US dependence on our OPEC friends. Every barrel of oil we buy from Canada undermines our support for our traditional OPEC allies by displacing OPEC imports. We appreciate, and are grateful for the fact that Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Venezuela and the United Arab Emirates have kept America supplied with oil, reasonably consistently, for decades. We have come to depend on our OPEC friends and they have come to depend on us. The pipeline from Canada will even displace new sources of OPEC oil, like Venezuela’s heavy crude. That’s no way to treat a friend.

4 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 11:55:04am

re: #2 Buck

I guess it is important to point out that this is simply not true. Canada (Alberta) does NOT import oil from Saudi Arabia.

Liar.

[Link: www.statcan.gc.ca...]

Domestic crude accounts for only about 45% of Canada's oil consumption. Imports represented the remaining 55%, mostly coming from either North Sea countries or the Middle East. Imported oil feeds refineries mostly in Eastern Canada.

If you mean just Alberta, then who gives a shit?

This whole argument is fucking stupid. The total level of consumption of oil is what sets the price of oil. If we want to defund the oil-rich Middle Eastern countries, we need to not consume so much oil.

5 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 11:55:29am

re: #3 Buck

Why are you quoting from a satirical piece?

6 Interesting Times  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:06:45pm

re: #5 Obdicut

Why are you quoting from a satirical piece?

Hahahahaha PWNED:

Americans4OPEC is not a real organization, but a satire created by EthicalOil.org to highlight the choice Americans now have: A choice between several more decades of dependency on OPEC’s conflict oil or a future built on reliable, secure, and peaceful ethical oil from neighboring Canada.

Buck deceitfully trying to pass Ezra Levant propaganda off as fact, in the hopes no one notices? That bit of FAIL is almost as thick as dirty tar sands oil :D Perhaps we should add some Saudi oil to it so it flows a little smoother 9_9

7 Varek Raith  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:21:28pm

Ah, Buck, you complete LGF.
XD

8 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:35:15pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Imported oil feeds refineries mostly in Eastern Canada.

I did mean Alberta. I even wrote Alberta. The oil in eastern Canada is not sent to Alberta, and the oil for the XL pipeline is starting in Alberta. If you give a shit about the truth and accuracy than you would give a shit about it.

The plan of replacing the imported oil in Eastern Canada with Ethical oil is also in place.

9 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:36:15pm

re: #5 Obdicut

Why are you quoting from a satirical piece?

I was having some fun.

10 Sheila Broflovski  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:37:13pm

How "ethical oil" saves* the environment.

*saves the environment: in a rapey stabby kind of way

11 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:37:26pm

re: #6 publicityStunted

I was having a bit of fun. My #1 and #2 were serious. Deal with that.

12 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:40:26pm

re: #10 Alouette

How "ethical oil" saves* the environment.

*saves the environment: in a rapey stabby kind of way

It is NOT about the environment. It is not like if you don't buy the oil from Canada then you just wont use oil. Americans will buy and use the same amount of oil, no matter where it is purchased from. You miss the point. Please read my #1

Save the environment is a great idea. I support that 100%. But it will take 20-40 years to replace all the cars with environment friendly choices.

In the meanwhile....

13 Buck  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 12:53:41pm

re: #4 Obdicut

If we want to defund the oil-rich Middle Eastern countries,

That is NOT the goal. That is not possible. Not in any amount of time that is reasonable anyway. I am very clear about that in my #1.

You bring in an argument that is clearly a straw man.

How long do you think it would take to change the entire world from oil based economy? How many decades? That is what you have before argued is the goal.

14 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 1:07:29pm

re: #8 Buck

I did mean Alberta. I even wrote Alberta. The oil in eastern Canada is not sent to Alberta, and the oil for the XL pipeline is starting in Alberta. If you give a shit about the truth and accuracy than you would give a shit about it.

I do. That's why I know saying Canada (Alberta) is horseshit. Your argument is getting more and more insane-- now this oil is ethical because it's being sourced from a particular region-- not a country, but a region-- that doesn't import oil from the Middle East? Seriously, that's the argument?

15 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 1:08:17pm

re: #13 Buck

That is NOT the goal. That is not possible. Not in any amount of time that is reasonable anyway.

What the hell does this mean? It's not possible to ever get away from oil? You think oil is never going to run out?

I forget, are you one of those abiotic oil freaks?

16 Obdicut  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 1:13:54pm

re: #12 Buck

Americans will buy and use the same amount of oil, no matter where it is purchased from. You miss the point.

Which is why this is pointless, since the Saudis will be making just as much money. With the US buying more oil, Canada will probably wind up importing more Middle Eastern oil.

Since most of the companies doing the oil sales are multinational corporations, what the hell does this matter, anyway? The corporations aren't the people of Canada, the wealth that goes to them doesn't go to Canada, so what's the ethical connection?

17 harrylook  Wed, Nov 30, 2011 1:46:24pm

re: #12 Buck

Save the environment is a great idea. I support that 100%. But it will take 20-40 years to replace all the cars with environment friendly choices.

In the meanwhile...

We could seriously reduce the strategic importance of oil if all vehicles sold in America were required to be able to run on any biofuel. Then the fuel mix would contain whatever mix of biofuels is the most economical. And OPEC's power would virtually evaporate. It would cost $100/car and the technology already exists. We can do this today to reduce the importance of oil as a commodity.

18 Buck  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 12:59:21pm

re: #14 Obdicut

I do. That's why I know saying Canada (Alberta) is horseshit. Your argument is getting more and more insane-- now this oil is ethical because it's being sourced from a particular region-- not a country, but a region-- that doesn't import oil from the Middle East? Seriously, that's the argument?

Yes, the oil you will be buying is from Canada, and not a source that uses it as a weapon against you.

Also a great majority of the oil imported into Eastern Canada is from Norway. Also an Ethical source. A way to get the oil from Alberta to Eastern Canada is being worked out. It takes time. It is a very different geographic span.

Alberta is to Eastern Canada what Montana is to the Eastern coast of the USA. In other words very far away.

19 Buck  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 1:04:54pm

re: #16 Obdicut

Which is why this is pointless, since the Saudis will be making just as much money. With the US buying more oil, Canada will probably wind up importing more Middle Eastern oil.

Simply not true.

Since most of the companies doing the oil sales are multinational corporations, what the hell does this matter, anyway? The corporations aren't the people of Canada, the wealth that goes to them doesn't go to Canada, so what's the ethical connection?

If you really don't understand what "supporting terror, hurting women and anti-semitic means, then I can't help you.

Also, if you can't see how the thousands of jobs IN THE USA would benefit the country, then I can't help you.

I am also hoping it will spur the "drill Baby drill" in the USA. Those are jobs that can't be moved to Asia, unlike factory jobs.

20 Buck  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 1:07:15pm

re: #17 harrylook

We could seriously reduce the strategic importance of oil if all vehicles sold in America were required to be able to run on any biofuel. Then the fuel mix would contain whatever mix of biofuels is the most economical. And OPEC's power would virtually evaporate. It would cost $100/car and the technology already exists. We can do this today to reduce the importance of oil as a commodity.

Detail out where you would get (create) this biofuel. How you would make it, and how you would distribute it. How long that would take to set up. And how long it would take to change the millions of cars on the road today.

21 Buck  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 1:09:04pm

re: #15 Obdicut

What the hell does this mean? It's not possible to ever get away from oil? You think oil is never going to run out?

I forget, are you one of those abiotic oil freaks?

OK, Obdicut.... how many years do you think it would take to take the entire world of the oil economy?

You're a smart guy. Give it some thought. Let us know.

22 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 1:40:44pm

One Third of World’s Energy Could Be Solar by 2060, Predicts Historically Conservative IEA

The agency has embraced the need for more clean electricity and fuels to address climate change and peak oil, but its outlook for the future is usually far more conservative than how reality plays out. So when an official at the IEA says we could get up to one third of our global energy supply from solar photovoltaics, concentrating solar power, and solar hot water by 2060, that’s a fairly big piece of news. But even that projection may be conservative.

Renewable power trumps fossil fuels for first time

Renewable energy is surpassing fossil fuels for the first time in new power-plant investments, shaking off setbacks from the financial crisis and an impasse at the United Nations global warming talks. Electricity from the wind, sun, waves and biomass drew $187 billion last year compared with $157 billion for natural gas, oil and coal, according to calculations by Bloomberg New Energy Finance using the latest data.

World’s Engineers: “The Technology Needed to Cut the World’s Greenhouse Gas Emissions by 85% by 2050 Already Exists”

The statement says that generating electricity from wind, waves and the sun, growing biofuels sustainably, zero emissions transport, low carbon buildings and energy efficiency technologies have all been demonstrated. However they are not being developed for wide-scale use fast enough and there is a desperate need for financial and legislative support from governments around the world if they are to fulfil their potential.

23 Buck  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 4:09:30pm

re: #22 publicityStunted

One Third of World’s Energy Could Be Solar by 2060, Predicts Historically Conservative IEA

OK, 2060.... one third.... let's say another 20 years for the next third, and 10 years for the last third. Even if that did only 90%. 80 years.

IN THE MEANWHILE. You have a choice. Oil from sources that mean you harm, fund terror, oppress women and gays, are part of a cartel that openly manipulates the price AND are a source that is subject to issues that come with Tyrants and dictators. OR from sources that are in North and South America. Countries that are open democracies, and are your natural allies.

AGAIN, this has nothing to do with harming middle east countries. This isn't about taking money from the Saudis, not matter how Obdicut tries to change the focus. Yes, the Saudis will continue to swim in money. However, it just doesn't have to come from you.

24 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 1, 2011 7:00:00pm

"Ethical Asbestos"

"Ethical Tobacco"

"Ethical Endangered Species Soup"

...in other words:

"Ethical oil": Choose your poison

In principle, we could look at this as a matter of "choose your poison." Do you want the oil that's associated with human rights violations, or the oil that's associated with environmental destruction? Interesting dilemma, in principle. But for most of us, it's a moot point: oil (and the gas that comes from it) is an undifferentiated commodity, and we don't get to choose based on nation-of-origin. So it's not like the ad in question is really intended to help consumers make more ethical consumption choices.

The Truthiness of Ethical Oil

“Even if Westerners tune in to the messaging at EthicalOil.org and then demand that their local gas stations purge all Saudi-origin content from their supply chain, there won't be a single Saudi Sheik who loses a nickel,” says Kay. “If you want to hurt the Saudis, there is one thing you can do: Depress the global demand for oil by using less of it.” Otherwise, you're just needlessly poking an oil-rich bear with a stick while obfuscating the very essence of what it means to act “ethically”.

"Ethical Oil" doesn't hurt the Saudis. Depressing the global demand for oil - by advocating for fossil fuel alternatives - does. Ergo, anyone who genuinely cares about human rights (and not just for citizens in oil-producing countries) knows what path to take.

25 Buck  Fri, Dec 2, 2011 12:48:15pm

re: #24 publicityStunted

there won't be a single Saudi Sheik who loses a nickel

Wow, like a one trick pony, that is the only argument that holds up, IF that was what anyone was talking about.

Depress the global demand for oil by using less of it.

Pie in the sky objective. As discussed that would take decades, if it is possible at all. In the meanwhile, there are so many good reasons to replace the middle east oil imports. I have outlined them multiple times, but to be extra clear.

Not be a part in funding terror.
Not be a part in funding oppression of women, gays and Israel.
Thousands of jobs.
Not allowing a "Cartel" of dictators and tyrants to threaten you by using access to oil as a weapon against you.

Just to name a few obvious ones.

Just as an aside, the Saudis disagree with you regarding the effect of Ethical Oil on them. Yes, they are not worried about a smaller bank account, but they value influence over the USA almost as much as money.

26 Interesting Times  Fri, Dec 2, 2011 1:10:20pm

Suncor Tar Sands Refinery Leaks Crude into South Platte River

Suncor is the oldest tar sands producers, up to 90% of its production comprised of tar sands bitumen. The company uses its Colorado refinery to process some of the heavy tar sands coming from the Express and Platte pipelines. At a time when companies like TransCanada and Enbridge are proposing to build tar sands infrastructure through our rivers and water resources—and some in Congress are trying to speed up the process by skipping environmental review—this spill provides another sad example of what can go wrong with these projects.

Key Facts on Keystone XL

According to presentations to investors, Gulf Coast refiners plan to refine the cheap Canadian crude supplied by the pipeline into diesel and other products for export to Europe and Latin America. Proceeds from these exports are earned tax-free. Much of the fuel refined from the pipeline’s heavy crude oil will never reach U.S. drivers’ tanks.
...
According to TransCanada’s own data, just 11% of the construction jobs on the Keystone I pipeline in South Dakota were filled by South Dakotans–most of them for temporary, low-paying manual labor.

Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU) and the Transport Workers Union (TWU) both oppose the pipeline. Their August 2011 statement: “We need jobs, but not ones based on increasing our reliance on Tar Sands oil. There is no shortage of water and sewage pipelines that need to be fixed or replaced, bridges and tunnels that are in need of emergency repair, transportation infrastructure that needs to be renewed and developed. Many jobs could also be created in energy conservation, upgrading the grid, maintaining and expanding public transportation—jobs that can help us reduce air pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, and improve energy efficiency.”

27 Buck  Fri, Dec 2, 2011 1:33:33pm

re: #26 publicityStunted

Your sources are biased and do not back up even their basic assertions.

An investors presentation? No source.

The unions were in congress just today saying otherwise.

Only 11% of the construction jobs were filled by South Dakotans? Can they back that up? Who filled the other 89% of the jobs? Americans from outside SD. Maybe they were North Dakotans? I am sure they needed to bring in trades people from all over. That is hardly a negative.

I could go on. But why bother, you have already made up your very closed mind.

28 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 2, 2011 1:41:34pm

re: #25 Buck

It's really pathetic that you don't even find it possible for the world to use less oil. That's pretty close to insane.

OK, Obdicut... how many years do you think it would take to take the entire world of the oil economy?

That depends on the effort made to do so. If all the major countries in the world truly dedicated themselves to it to the extent they committed their economies in WWII, probably about forty years until coal and oil (remember, not just oil is stupid to burn) were being burned an order of magnitude less.

They're not doing so, partially because asshole nihilistic propagandists keep coming up with vile, evil bullshit like "ethical oil".


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