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1 Buck  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:09:10pm

What do you think about the Whitehouse doing it two weeks early?

I know some are a little offended. How would it seem if they did Ramadan, or Easter.... two weeks early?

2 shutdown  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 8:29:44pm

I'm always vaguely offended by any official religious holiday parties at the White House. That sense of general impropriety is enhanced when the chief celebrants are not adherents of the faith being celebrated. It is a politicization of religion. It's about votes, not about honouring different faiths.

3 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 9:13:54pm

I don't know; if the president marked July 24th (which absolutely none of you know is Pioneer day in Utah), I wouldn't care. I would think it odd if he marked it on July 12th, though. Not offended, just bemused.

4 Flavia  Thu, Dec 8, 2011 10:53:16pm

re: #2 imp_62

I'm always vaguely offended by any official religious holiday parties at the White House. That sense of general impropriety is enhanced when the chief celebrants are not adherents of the faith being celebrated. It is a politicization of religion. It's about votes, not about honouring different faiths.

Oh, absolutely. & the whole "doing it early thing" underlines all of that: it's a brazen attempt at vote-getting & it is totally disrespectful in the whole "we don't really give a rat's butt about this" way. In fact, I thought this had to be a joke until I checked it out.

5 Bob Levin  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 12:17:51am

You know what the problem is? It's clear from the picture that Obama follows Beis Shammai. There's the friction in a nutshell.

6 BishopX  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 1:02:05am

My take is that he's throwing the party now so congress critters can come. Congress isn't actually in session during the real Hanukkah, The house goes into recess Dec. 8, the senate probably about the same time. office Christmas parties are also typically a few weeks before the actual event, the thinking being that people would much rather spend the actual holiday with friends and family.

7 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:12:13am

re: #1 Buck

What do you think about the Whitehouse doing it two weeks early?

I know some are a little offended. How would it seem if they did Ramadan, or Easter... two weeks early?

These White House events are planned many months in advance. Whoever did the planning probably did not have a Hebrew calender available, but simply guessed that Hanukkah usually falls in December a couple of weeks before Christmas (last year it was on Dec. 15). This Hebrew year happened to be a "leap year" which in our lunar calendar means an extra month is inserted before Passover, so that Passover should always occur in the spring.

This causes a cascade in which all the holidays are pushed off later than they would normally occur during a regular Hebrew year, so Hanukkah this year occurs during the same week as Christmas.

8 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 4:45:32am

re: #1 Buck

Why would anyone be offended?

9 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 5:13:14am

re: #8 Obdicut

Why would anyone be offended?

There are some people who are offended by ANYTHING the President does.

Consider this: 70 years ago a group of Jews, including many prominent and distinguished rabbis, stood outside the White House to see the President and beg him to do something to save their people from what was going on in Europe. Not only did the President refuse to talk to them, but a low-level functionary came outside and basically told them to go fuck themselves.

Today we have a President who invites members of the community (OK, most of them are Democrats but not all), makes sure to provide strictly kosher refreshments and extends his hands in peace and welcome. We should appreciate that and be grateful to live in this great country.

10 Flavia  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:11:59am

re: #8 Obdicut

Why would anyone be offended?

Because it's callously disrespectful in both practice (he's NOT Jewish) & planning (oh, who really cares when it actually is?), a cheap ploy to get votes & the US is a secular nation! NONE of these holidays should be official!

I am a full citizen & human being. I should not have to feel grateful that my president is prostituting my religion instead of allowing me to die. Things are at a sorry state of affairs when that's the choice that's being considered.

11 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:14:10am

re: #10 Flavia

I agree that religious holidays should not be official in any country.

12 sffilk  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:18:37am

My comment there:

I'm sorry, but not only is this too early, but it's way too little, way too late. With all due respect to Mr. Obama, he has shown he doesn't care a bit about the world's Jews; otherwise, not only would he have visited Israel already, but he'd be putting on the pressure to the Palestinian Arabs to sit at the table with the Palestinian Jews (instead of people like Leon Panetta saying that both parties need to get to the table, even though Israel has been sitting at that table for decades).

13 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:38:18am

re: #10 Flavia

Because it's callously disrespectful in both practice (he's NOT Jewish) & planning (oh, who really cares when it actually is?), a cheap ploy to get votes & the US is a secular nation! NONE of these holidays should be official!

Where is the callousness? Who is hurt by this?

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I don't care if people celebrate religious holidays while in public service. It's a human thing. Ideally it wouldn't happen, but it's not a big deal.

I am a full citizen & human being. I should not have to feel grateful that my president is prostituting my religion instead of allowing me to die. Things are at a sorry state of affairs when that's the choice that's being considered.

Um, why is that the choice that's being considered?

14 Flavia  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:45:05am

re: #13 Obdicut

Where is the callousness?

Pardon me, I thought I had made it clear that the scheduling showed a complete disregard for the actual holiday he is pretending to celebrate.

I also didn't point out more specifically that, in his speech, he actually redefined the holiday to suit his own needs. How nice of him.

Who is hurt by this?

Anyone who actually cares about Judaism & the constitution. Anyone who doesn't like to see religion prostituted for private gain. Those people.

I mean, I'm an atheist, and I don't care if people celebrate religious holidays while in public service. It's a human thing. Ideally it wouldn't happen, but it's not a big deal.

So because you don't care, no one else should?

Um, why is that the choice that's being considered?

Another Lizard made the compare/contrast; I disagreed with it.

15 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 6:52:33am

re: #14 Flavia

Pardon me, I thought I had made it clear that the scheduling showed a complete disregard for the actual holiday he is pretending to celebrate.

I don't get why you feel that shows a complete disregard. I've celebrated holidays on different days, when I couldn't do them on the days they were supposed to.

So what?

Anyone who actually cares about Judaism & the constitution. Anyone who doesn't like to see religion prostituted for private gain. Those people.

I care about the constitution. How am I hurt by this? You mean, because we should have stricter separation of church and state than we do?

So because you don't care, no one else should?

No, I'm asking if your position is an absolutist one of separation of church and state-- because if so, this seems rather the lesser of many breaches of that separation that are currently ongoing. Like the many laws we have on the books derived from the Christian religion.

Another Lizard made the compare/contrast; I disagreed with it.

Maybe you should post to her, then, eh?

I think the point she was making was how far Jews have come in acceptance in American society, rather than an either/or choice.


You seem to be taking, in the end, an absolutist separation of church and state position, which would mean, taken to the logical extreme, that if a politician said "I believe in god" using a public microphone paid for with public dollars, you'd object to that. is that true?

16 Flavia  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:28:48am

re: #15 Obdicut

I don't get why you feel that shows a complete disregard. I've celebrated holidays on different days, when I couldn't do them on the days they were supposed to.

So what?

I already answered this; you don't care or accept my reasoning. Good. I do. Your insistence that I shouldn't because you don't is... Well, puzzling isn't the word, but it's close.

I care about the constitution. How am I hurt by this?

How is anyone hurt by a disregard for the law? Especially when it's a disregard that is rooted in self-interest, with overtones of majority tyranny (to use a strong word, but it's the only one I can find at the moment).

No, I'm asking if your position is an absolutist one of separation of church and state-- because if so, this seems rather the lesser of many breaches of that separation that are currently ongoing. Like the many laws we have on the books derived from the Christian religion.

I'm totally against Blue Laws, yes - thank you for bringing that up. Abortion rights - should never be voted on. No federal religious holidays - a complete contradiction.

Maybe you should post to her, then, eh?

Oh, I guess I'm a horrible human being for making more than one point in a post. I mean, it's not like this is a general forum, & that when we quote someone's reply, we are only speaking to that person, & not the entire readership, right?

I think the point she was making was how far Jews have come in acceptance in American society, rather than an either/or choice.

Yes, I'm sure that's the point she was making; I have a different take on it.

You seem to be taking, in the end, an absolutist separation of church and state position, which would mean, taken to the logical extreme, that if a politician said "I believe in god" using a public microphone paid for with public dollars, you'd object to that. is that true?

I don't think that's a logical extreme at all, but if that would make you happy, fine. I also think it ought to be off the money, & out of the Pledge.

17 Obdicut  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:44:05am

re: #16 Flavia

I already answered this; you don't care or accept my reasoning. Good. I do. Your insistence that I shouldn't because you don't is... Well, puzzling isn't the word, but it's close.

Please show where I'm 'insisting' on anything.

I'm totally against Blue Laws, yes - thank you for bringing that up. Abortion rights - should never be voted on. No federal religious holidays - a complete contradiction.

Can you explain what you mean by 'abortion rights should never be voted on'?

Oh, I guess I'm a horrible human being for making more than one point in a post. I mean, it's not like this is a general forum, & that when we quote someone's reply, we are only speaking to that person, & not the entire readership, right?

Why on earth are you being so hyperbolic? A horribel human being? Where are you getting that from?

I'm saying if you're making a point about someone's post, then replying to them is appropriate. Replying to someone else with that point is going to cause confusion.

I don't think that's a logical extreme at all, but if that would make you happy, fine. I also think it ought to be off the money, & out of the Pledge.

So, of all the ways that religion permeates our government-- the many laws based on religion, the many observances of holidays-- Obama's treatment of religion here is the way that it generally operates in this country? And the laws based on religion, obviously, have a much greater effect, right?

18 Sionainn  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 7:52:25am

The anger about this is really surprising. Who knew this would be such a hot button issue?

19 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 8:54:38am

re: #18 Sionainn

The anger about this is really surprising. Who knew this would be such a hot button issue?

EVERYTHING the President does is a hot-button issue.

20 Sionainn  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 9:07:07am

re: #19 Alouette

EVERYTHING the President does is a hot-button issue.

That is true. I mean, who cares what kind of mustard Obama eats. I guess I'm surprised with anger/disgust coming from people I wouldn't have expected it from on this particular story.

21 Flavia  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:07:53am

I'm surprised, myself, at the people who can't get why I & others are upset. And, because I also see this as a possible charge, no, it's not just because it's Obama. It has to do with the President. But I'm tired of repeating myself.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:11:05am

re: #21 Flavia

I do see why turning religious holidays into a political routine is irking. I just look at it calmly because that's the way it's been a long time, IMHO.

23 Sionainn  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:11:26am

re: #21 Flavia

I'm surprised, myself, at the people who can't get why I & others are upset. And, because I also see this as a possible charge, no, it's not just because it's Obama. It has to do with the President. But I'm tired of repeating myself.

I'm trying to understand, but it just seems like there some serious hostility going on and I really don't get that. Sorry.

24 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 9, 2011 10:23:29am

I don't recall people getting this totally outraged when George W. Bush served non-kosher refreshments at the White House Hanukkah event in 2005. (since then a kosher caterer has serviced the event)


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