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1 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 9:29:57am

Posting an article from Haaretz about the Haredim is like posting an article by Pam Geller about the Muslims.

Just sayin’

2 researchok  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:29:49am

re: #1 Alouette

In terms of attitude and slant, that is probably the case. Haaretz is not particularly sympathetic to the Haredim.

That said, is there anything in the article that factually incorrect?

3 ProTARDISLiberal  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:32:08am

re: #2 researchok

In addition, I’m not exactly sympathetic to the Haredim right now after seeing the stories about the little girl.

Though, to their credit, the Haredim are not outright killing those of rival sects, like the Salafi Muslims are.

4 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:32:57am

re: #2 researchok

In terms of attitude and slant, that is probably the case. Haaretz is not particularly sympathetic to the Haredim.

That said, is there anything in the article that factually incorrect?

Do I have to read the whole freaking thing and point out each and every exaggeration and lie?

Most inhabitants are supported by pensions and stipends, and are almost completely exempt from income tax and municipal taxes.

This. Is. Total. Bullshit.

5 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:38:39am

re: #3 ProLifeLiberal

In addition, I’m not exactly sympathetic to the Haredim right now after seeing the stories about the little girl.

Though, to their credit, the Haredim are not outright killing those of rival sects, like the Salafi Muslims are.

If I said, “I’m not exactly sympathetic to the Muslims right now after seeing the stories about this or that honor killing” would you agree with that, or would that be making a bigoted generalization about an entire population based on the acts of some extremists?

6 researchok  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:40:16am

re: #4 Alouette

I will do a bit more research on this. Clearly you know more about the haredi culture/society than I.

What did come to mind was this piece by Public Radio International, Welfare support for Israel’s ultra-orthodox Jews. And this is one of many media stories along the same lines.

It is no secret I am an ardent supporter of Israel. Still, that does mean there can be no need to support a bit of house cleaning when necessary.

7 ferdy1  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 11:54:57am

haaretz has the credibility of Iran as a promoter of human rights. this pos excuse for a newspaper has slandered an entire community with distortions and half-truths. chareidi education is not free and as for the core curriculum issue the sweating that goes on in the long hours of chareidi education puts the pathetic main-stream secular system to shame. as far as taxes go what a total lie . every chareidi family i know (and i know a considerable number) are gainfully employed and pay their fair share and those who are full time students are not exempt from municipal or income taxes and do pay. this is a case of judging the majority from the actions of a tiny minority. we call that racism where i come from.as far as the “huge” housing projects thats why one of the major problems is lack of affordable housing? this article should be seen for what it is-hate mongering and malicious

8 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 12:02:58pm

re: #6 researchok

I will do a bit more research on this. Clearly you know more about the haredi culture/society than I.

What did come to mind was this piece by Public Radio International, Welfare support for Israel’s ultra-orthodox Jews. And this is one of many media stories along the same lines.

It is no secret I am an ardent supporter of Israel. Still, that does mean there can be no need to support a bit of house cleaning when necessary.

I know nothing about “Public Radio International” but I do know the extreme bias of Haaretz and it is totally inappropriate to stereotype an entire population. Do you think that it is right to judge all Muslims or all Blacks based on what you see at Fox News and Atlas Shrugs? I am aware that problems exist in the community just like any other ethnic and religious group in the world but Haaretz would never write any such thing about Muslims or Palestinians.

9 researchok  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 12:17:50pm

re: #8 Alouette

PRI is the international version of NPRre: #8 Alouette

I am aware that problems exist in the community just like any other ethnic and religious group in the world but Haaretz would never write any such thing about Muslims or Palestinians.

Very true. As I noted, Haaretz has plenty of it’s own baggage.

As for PRI, see the wiki entry.

My main concern is what appears to be a society within a society- and that cannot bode well for any nation or group.

That the Haredim do not want to assimilate into Israeli society is their right, of course. Nevertheless, that doe snot preclude them from integrating into an open, free and democratic society. They cannot enforce their restrictive rules or behaviors on others.

For example, if they want segregated buses or exclusive neighborhoods it is only right that have that option available to them- an option they pay for. They cannot ask a free and democratic state to subsidize their restrictive rules anymore than a private segregated country club or golf course can ask the state to subsidize their activities or costs.

10 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 12:27:45pm

re: #9 researchok

PRI is the international version of NPRre: #8 Alouette

Very true. As I noted, Haaretz has plenty of it’s own baggage.

As for PRI, see the wiki entry.

My main concern is what appears to be a society within a society- and that cannot bode well for any nation or group.

That the Haredim do not want to assimilate into Israeli society is their right, of course. Nevertheless, that doe snot preclude them from integrating into an open, free and democratic society. They cannot enforce their restrictive rules or behaviors on others.

For example, if they want segregated buses or exclusive neighborhoods it is only right that have that option available to them- an option they pay for. They cannot ask a free and democratic state to subsidize their restrictive rules anymore than a private segregated country club or golf course can ask the state to subsidize their activities or costs.

I don’t think they should have segregated buses, as I noted on my blog, there is already too much traffic congestion in Jerusalem to justify a duplication of public transport. Likewise, thugs who bully little girls belong in jail.

That said, there are enough idiots on both sides who want to turn this into a religious vs. secular war. Haaretz represents one such group of idiots. Their straight news articles are usually reliable, but their op-eds are Teh Suck.

This article is just disgusting bigotry on the level of “young bucks buying T-bone steaks with food stamps.”

11 researchok  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 12:42:10pm

re: #10 Alouette

I don’t think they should have segregated buses, as I noted on my blog, there is already too much traffic congestion in Jerusalem to justify a duplication of public transport. Likewise, thugs who bully little girls belong in jail.

That said, there are enough idiots on both sides who want to turn this into a religious vs. secular war. Haaretz represents one such group of idiots. Their straight news articles are usually reliable, but their op-eds are Teh Suck.

This article is just disgusting bigotry on the level of “young bucks buying T-bone steaks with food stamps.”

We’re in a agreement.

Now let me be clear- I don’t blame the average Haredi for the goings on we are witnessing today.

They are the biggest victims of the Haredi power brokers and political hacks who stir the pot in order to build and maintain a base so they can deliver a voting bloc. They could care less about their rank and file. When all is said and done, the Haredim are being robbed of their future.

This is not unlike the Palestinians or Arabs who are whipped into an anti Israel or antisemitic religious frenzy by those who have their own power based agenda. Those leaders too, don’t give a damn about Yusuf Q Public.

The irony is that both groups- the average Arab and the average Haredi are the big losers. They are ill equipped to deal with modern worlds and are forced to be dependent on their ‘leadership’. For them too, a productive future becomes a mirage.

The groups are effective because their leadership wants them to separate and apart from each other and anyone else who might say things cam be different, They are taught the other is evil and must be feared.

All the while, the political agendistas will manipulate the sentiments and mood to what they believe is their advantage.

12 Bob Levin  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 3:20:00pm

How about we get clear on what this article is about?

This is not an article about the Haredi per se, but rather an article about the relationship between the state and the Haredi communities. Therefore, an examination into the accuracy of this article would lead to laws and programs enacted by the entire State of Israel which pertain to the Haredi communities.

For instance, we know that the education is different, as many have posted articles about this, as many rabbis have written on the need for greater emphasis on secular subjects. In other words, there isn’t anything in this article that I haven’t read on JPost or Ynet—regarding education.

Are there different requirements for service in the military? How is housing built—it’s difficult all over Israel. Are there different types of housing projects, in terms of funding, in the Haredi communities?

These are the topics of the article. If you disagree with this article, are you taking a position that there is no greater state support of Haredi communities than for residents of Tel Aviv? Or are you saying that the state support is not as extensive as the article implies? If it is not as extensive, then where are the limits?

In other words, is Ha’aretz making this up, or is it referring to specific programs that do exist, but exist in limited ways?

13 researchok  Thu, Jan 5, 2012 5:24:09pm

re: #12 Bob Levin

Touche.

Twice.


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