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1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 8:41:17am

I don’t get it. The critics are upset about how much was paid for child sexual abuse?

I’d be a little more upset about the fact that the abuse happened, although I would also be upset that the abusers won’t pay, the members of the congregations will be paying these fees.

2 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:31:17am

Anyone still giving money to the Catholic Church is complicit in its acts of child abuse. It is no longer possible to claim that you are unaware of the problem.

3 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:40:17am

re: #2 kreyagg

Anyone still giving money to the Catholic Church is complicit in its acts of child abuse. It is no longer possible to claim that you are unaware of the problem.

Anyone paying income tax is complicit in the Department of Defense desecration of bodies.

Do you see the problem there?

4 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:48:54am

re: #3 Decatur Deb

The primary difference is that you can pretty easily choose a different religion, or even more sensibly give up your religion entirely.
It is more difficult to change nationalities. Plus, when was the last time parishioners got to vote for their priests bishops or popes?

I am also under the impression that giving money to the church is entirely voluntary.

5 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:54:15am

re: #4 kreyagg

The primary difference is that you can pretty easily choose a different religion, or even more sensibly give up your religion entirely.
It is more difficult to change nationalities. Plus, when was the last time parishioners got to vote for their priests bishops or popes?

I am also under the impression that giving money to the church is entirely voluntary.

Many persons, in their quest for moral purity, took the option and penalty for withholding the DoD portion of their taxes during the Viet Nam war. They risked only their fines and freedom, while you are asking my wife to risk her very soul. The actions and purposes of institutions are not necessarily those of their worst members.

6 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:57:01am

re: #3 Decatur Deb

Anyone paying income tax is complicit in the Department of Defense desecration of bodies.

Do you see the problem there?

And at least for the moment the USG and the Marines are acting like they will prosecute the marines that desecrated those bodies. The following would have to happen multiple times for your comparison to hold true:
1 The soldiers in question would have to have been caught.
2 Their crimes covered
3 They would be quietly relocated so they could do it again

7 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 10:59:05am

re: #6 kreyagg

And at least for the moment the USG and the Marines are acting like they will prosecute the marines that desecrated those bodies. The following would have to happen multiple times for your comparison to hold true:
1 The soldiers in question would have to have been caught.
2 Their crimes covered
3 They would be quietly relocated so they could do it again

Do you think most of the pissers who don’t post their little productions on YouTube are being prosecuted?

8 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:00:40am

re: #5 Decatur Deb

Many persons, in their quest for moral purity, took the option and penalty for withholding the DoD portion of their taxes during the Viet Nam war. They risked only their fines and freedom, while you are asking my wife to risk her very soul. The actions and purposes of institutions are not necessarily those of their worst members.

A: prove that there is such a thing as a soul to be risked
B: there are other ways to be charitable than to support a criminal organization that aids and abets child rapists
C We know that authorities at every level of the Catholic church, including the pope, are aware of active pedophiles who have unsupervised access to children

9 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:05:26am

re: #7 Decatur Deb

I believe that any soldiers or marines who are caught would be prosecuted and I believe that the US military can be trusted to punish its criminals. The Roman Catholic Church is demonstrably unwilling to do so.

10 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:09:26am

re: #8 kreyagg

A: prove that there is such a thing as a soul to be risked
B: there are other ways to be charitable than to support a criminal organization that aids and abets child rapists
C We know that authorities at every level of the Catholic church, including the pope, are aware of active pedophiles who have unsupervised access to children

Soul—I’ve been an agnostic since the 60s.

Criminal organization—The charity of churches is a secondary byproduct of their express purposes and the cultural/individual needs they fill.

Authorities—We know the extreme cases as presented in the media. I don’t have a direct line to what the pope/bishops knew and when they know it. It is very likely there have been severe individual and organizational crimes and abuses, though sadly perhaps not out of the ordinary.

11 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:12:35am

re: #9 kreyagg

I believe that any soldiers or marines who are caught would be prosecuted and I believe that the US military can be trusted to punish its criminals. The Roman Catholic Church is demonstrably unwilling to do so.

I’ve got 31 years with the Army as a soldier and civilian. The performance of the two large institutions is remarkably similar in my experience. Review the history of the child care problems most noted at West Point, Presidio of SF, and Ft. Bragg.

12 kreyagg  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:49:06am

I am not claiming that military criminal justice is flawless, but at least the policy is to apprehend, prosecute and punish criminals. This can’t really be said of the RCC.


And I wish I had another little list, i was going to go with i, ii, and iii

13 Decatur Deb  Sat, Jan 14, 2012 11:55:51am

re: #12 kreyagg

I am not claiming that military criminal justice is flawless, but at least the policy is to apprehend, prosecute and punish criminals. This can’t really be said of the RCC.

And I wish I had another little list, i was going to go with i, ii, and iii

The DoD has a statutory requirement to punish crimes, while the pope and other religious adminstrators are limited to excommunication and other ‘spiritual’ disciplines. They have often failed a moral duty, but have so far stayed on the inside of the law.

The military generally performs it’s UCMJ duties well enough, though the outcomes are not always sterling—viz 2LT William Calley, LTC Oliver North, LTC Allan West.


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