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1 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 1:47:53am

Is it possible that someone could write an editorial (JPost, Ynet, can you hear me?) on Jewish or Israeli life where the sky is not falling? And if it is falling, do you think that yelling at it (pardon, critiquing it) will actually help matters?

Ultimately, I believe this is really a conflict about mobilizing every citizen into action, not simply modifying Haredi behavior. Just like Israel must learn to use each drop of water efficiently and ecologically, the same is true for human talent.

This waste of talent is the same waste that has taken place in every society, possibly since the dawn of civilization. Twain wrote of his version of heaven where each resident gets to use their maximum talent, talent which is appreciated by everyone.

If Israel can resolve this properly, becoming a society where talent is not wasted--has this happened before? Or will new ground be broken?

2 researchok  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 2:17:42am

re: #1 Bob Levin

The media (and the NYT in particular) love these stories for a lot of reasons.

On an political/moral/ethical level, there isn't much room for moral equivalency, no matter how furious they spin. It's tough to make equivalents out of people conditioned to embrace hate, racism and bigotry..

The haredi issue is a gift by allowing for a more equal comparison on a slice of the cultural/societal battlefield- and the media will try and spin that into an example of moral equivalency in general.

It won't work, but it will be interesting to watch.

3 Bob Levin  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 3:01:44am

Right. I hear what you're saying about the Times.

I'm saying that because of Israeli democracy, these 'crises', over time, can resolve in surprising and wonderful ways. Although this debate about equivalency is making headlines, there has been another debate for many months about whether the Haredi can break out of the tight intellectual box and maximize their potential. Both of these debates are not mutually exclusive.

Rabbis are involved in both debates, again, trying to get the Haredi to unlock the chains. The full resolution can take time, years. The women's issue, maybe a few months.

4 researchok  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 3:16:25am

re: #3 Bob Levin

Right. I hear what you're saying about the Times.

I'm saying that because of Israeli democracy, these 'crises', over time, can resolve in surprising and wonderful ways. Although this debate about equivalency is making headlines, there has been another debate for many months about whether the Haredi can break out of the tight intellectual box and maximize their potential. Both of these debates are not mutually exclusive.

Rabbis are involved in both debates, again, trying to get the Haredi to unlock the chains. The full resolution can take time, years. The women's issue, maybe a few months.

Right.

Israel is a lot America in the sense both countries have an amazing capacity to self correct.

5 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 11:50:14am

I think there is room for compromise on both sides. The segregated buses have to go, but at the same time, with all the complaints that "the Ultra-Orthodox don't serve in the army" don't collective punish those who are already in the army by forcing them to attend some young lady's concert. Is that the purpose of the IDF, to launch a girl's show business career?

6 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 1:55:00pm

re: #2 researchok

The media (and the NYT in particular) love these stories for a lot of reasons.

On an political/moral/ethical level, there isn't much room for moral equivalency, no matter how furious they spin. It's tough to make equivalents out of people conditioned to embrace hate, racism and bigotry..

The haredi issue is a gift by allowing for a more equal comparison on a slice of the cultural/societal battlefield- and the media will try and spin that into an example of moral equivalency in general.

It won't work, but it will be interesting to watch.

The other reason the NYT often reports such stories in an over-torqued manner is that this is simply what newspapers have always done. The New York Times wants its readers to continue buying the paper to read its coverage of the issue, and presenting the story too calmly would diminish its ability to 'grab' readers. The Times is not nearly as bad as the Yellow Journalism sometimes still seen from other newspapers, but it still has its business imperatives and those do drive the manner in which it covers stories to some extent.

7 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 3:49:11pm

People do get remarkably worked up about each of these. The sky is falling, each and every time.

Nations really do go through internal issues without being 'in crisis'.

8 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 4:32:01pm

re: #7 SanFranciscoZionist

Or everything is constantly in crisis, which amounts to the same thing.

9 Obdicut  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 4:39:30pm

re: #5 Alouette

Well, there are obviously going to be cases where an IDF band with female members would be playing, so the problem is bigger than just the incident.

I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

10 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 5:12:13pm

re: #9 Obdicut

Well, there are obviously going to be cases where an IDF band with female members would be playing, so the problem is bigger than just the incident.

I'm sure there's a way to make it work.

IDF band with female participants or singing the national anthem is not the issue, it is concerts entertainment that is supposed to be for "uplifting the troop morale."

Nothing like uplifting morale by being forced to attend a concert!

11 TedStriker  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 5:12:46pm

As a goyim, I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I look at this latest clash of secularism vs. fundamentalism the same as the RR/RWNJs feeling their oats here in the US with the GOP presidential nominees

It really does seem to be the socially enlightened vs. those who would take everyone back to the Bronze Age and keep us there. Israel, as we do, needs to address this post-haste in order to promote and preserve equality and fairness for all in public life, not just a chosen few.

12 ProGunLiberal  Sun, Jan 15, 2012 5:42:07pm

re: #11 talon_262

re: #10 Alouette

I dealt with Christian fanatics in Colorado Springs, and am dealing with a Salafi President of MSA.

These Ultra-Orthodox look no different than those two. I will deal with them accordingly.


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