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1 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 17, 2012 4:38:33pm

From another report:

Lee was stopped at a light when he was approached by a homeless man seeking money, police said.

Prosecutors say Lee was offended by the transient’s sexually explicit tattoo.

Words were exchanged, and Lee and another man in the car chased the homeless man and “beat him down” with the tire iron, police Capt. Paul Vernon said.

According to a statement by the district attorney’s office, Lee felt disrespected by the tattoo.

So this clearly qualifies as an honor killing. I trust Geller & Co. will be reporting it as such and screeching about dangerous Koreans, right? Right?? //

2 researchok  Tue, Jan 17, 2012 6:12:36pm

re: #1 CuriousLurker

Not exactly.

‘Honor killings’ are unique to shame societies. Without a shame society there are no ‘honor killings’. The two are bound together.

We don’t live in a shame society- and Lee certainly knew that.

Still, your point is nuanced.

He (Lee) may have responded in a way that reflected some of cultural upbringing. See Shame in Two Cultures: Implications for Evolutionary Approaches. It’s long but even a cursory scan touches the highlights.

See also Koreans and suicide for a more in depth look at Korea’s shame culture (they are not all the same).

This is another good article, Beware of the shame syndrome in Korea. It isn’t long but is worth a read.

Finally, Cultural Models of Shame and Guilt is pretty concise.

3 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jan 17, 2012 6:49:57pm

re: #2 researchok

Not exactly.

‘Honor killings’ are unique to shame societies. Without a shame society there are no ‘honor killings’. The two are bound together.

We don’t live in a shame society- and Lee certainly knew that.

The exact same thing could be said of the Iranian guy who killed his family on Christmas morning.

Still, your point is nuanced.

He (Lee) may have responded in a way that reflected some of cultural upbringing. See Shame in Two Cultures: Implications for Evolutionary Approaches. It’s long but even a cursory scan touches the highlights.

See also Koreans and suicide for a more in depth look at Korea’s shame culture (they are not all the same).

This is another good article, Beware of the shame syndrome in Korea. It isn’t long but is worth a read.

Finally, Cultural Models of Shame and Guilt is pretty concise.

Thanks for the links. Looks like some fascinating reading. I have a couple of Korean friends, so I’ll have to read the articles and see what additional insight they might be able to provide.

A few months back I stumbled upon Chinese ghost marriage and was completely captivated by the utter foreignness (to me) of the entire concept. Turns out they have a form of it in Korea too, or so one of my friends informed me.

I’ll never cease to wonder at how wildly different human cultures can be, yet how similar we all are in many fundamental ways. It’s glorious and exhilarating and endlessly astonishing, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.

4 researchok  Tue, Jan 17, 2012 7:01:26pm

re: #3 CuriousLurker

The exact same thing could be said of the Iranian guy who killed his family on Christmas morning.

Thanks for the links. Looks like some fascinating reading. I have a couple of Korean friends, so I’ll have to read the articles and see what additional insight they might be able to provide.

A few months back I stumbled upon Chinese ghost marriage and was completely captivated by the utter foreignness (to me) of the entire concept. Turns out they have a form of it in Korea too, or so one of my friends informed me.

I’ll never cease to wonder at how wildly different human cultures can be, yet how similar we all are in many fundamental ways. It’s glorious and exhilarating and endlessly astonishing, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.

Fascinating stuff. I’ve heard of the ‘Ghost Marriage’ thing but I really don’t know much about it.

What is fascinating to me is how different cultures- both guilt and shame- manifest their individual characteristics. The Chinese are different from the Japanese and Koreans, etc. How does that happen? What role do language and dialect play? How about ritual? Politics?

See this and follow the link to Cultural Anthropology. All fascinating stuff.

What interests me is the ease in which cultural transition occurs, at least in American society.

First generation immigrants see themselves as Hyphenated Americans. The second generation of immigrants see themselves as America add hyphenated group.

Europe has not been so lucky when it comes to integrating immigrant populations. Lots of reasons.

5 shutdown  Tue, Jan 17, 2012 8:14:39pm

Interesting and educational comments. Thank you all for contributing.

6 Bert's House of Beef and Obdicuts  Wed, Jan 18, 2012 2:57:27am

re: #2 researchok

If there’s any anthropological bullshit around that’s more subjective than ‘shame’ vs. ‘guilt’ I’d love to see it. It says a hell of a lot more about the perceiver than it does the perceived.

7 researchok  Wed, Jan 18, 2012 7:53:53am

re: #6 Obdicut

If there’s any anthropological bullshit around that’s more subjective than ‘shame’ vs. ‘guilt’ I’d love to see it. It says a hell of a lot more about the perceiver than it does the perceived.

Why would you say that? It isn’t as if there hasn’t been mountains of research on the subject, by both trained westerners and eastern culture observers.

Can you cite relevant and decent sources that debunk the idea and the social scientists who ascribe to it?

And what exactly does it say about the thousands upon thousands of social scientists who ascribe to it?


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