as you say, *someone* probably knew.
but who? if you can't prove that you can hardly go around punishing people willy-nilly...

re: #1 ThomasLite

as you say, *someone* probably knew.
but who? if you can't prove that you can hardly go around punishing people willy-nilly...

For starters, somebody made the flag.

re: #2 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

true. and *if* those responsible are found, a stiff reprimand is in order. my understanding was that the instigators weren't known, however.

and REALLY, there should be a toggle in your user settings to just ignore those constantly changing nics and show users' permanent ID.
this is just plain confusing if you don't read *every*frikkin'*thread*

re: #3 ThomasLite

true. and *if* those responsible are found, a stiff reprimand is in order. my understanding was that the instigators weren't known, however.

and REALLY, there should be a toggle in your user settings to just ignore those constantly changing nics and show users' permanent ID.
this is just plain confusing if you don't read *every*frikkin'*thread*

Reprimand is needed, but in a practical sense what needs to be investigated are possible neo-Nazi ties. Neo-Nazis are known to join the army to kill non-whites in war.

As for nicks, that would defeat the purpose of the feature. You do know you can just hover over a nick to get the original name, right?

re: #4 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

true. but aren't those ties something that's regularly investigated already? I believe the USMC is trying to keep anything nazi-affiliated out already.

besides, I wasn't saying an investigation wasn't in order, just that if those responsible aren't known, you can't go dishing out punishment to satisfy public opinion.
really, I don't disagree with you (on anything besides that, anyway).

as for the nicks, thanks, that's a nice feature.
(and no it wouldn't defeat the point, anyone who doesn't specifically disable showing those changing nicks would not be affected and I don't believe it's meant as an anonymizer, given that both hover-over and clicking a users ava will show 'true' nick, anyway. oh well :) I usually get over such pet peeves in 72 hours, so I'll live ;) )

It's meant as a way for a person to change his visible nick to whatever (s)he wants, if they're unhappy with the original nick. If other people can switch it off for themselves, that sorta defeats the purpose IMHO, since the person changing the nick supposedly wishes to be known by the display name to everyone.

re: #6 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

oh okay, I'll stop now :)
it was probably just the new toy syndrome hitting everyone simultaneously which ticked me off, if it's meant to be just incidental you're right :)

oh and apologies to randall hijacking his thread.

who gives a shit what their stated "intent" was. the picture speaks for itself

re: #9 SpaceJesus

who gives a shit what their stated "intent" was. the picture speaks for itself

you don't think that being plain ignorant as to the original meaning of the symbol is less bad than actually knowing you're waving an SS flag around?

Image: scout%20sniper%20logo%20123.jpg

The Double S has been used for years by a variety of units. There shouldn't be any punishment because they didn't intend to do anything wrong unless you believe the Sniper Squad is pining for the nazi regime.

re: #11 RogueOne

Image: scout%20sniper%20logo%20123.jpg

The Double S has been used for years by a variety of units. There shouldn't be any punishment because they didn't intend to do anything wrong unless you believe the Sniper Squad is pining for the nazi regime.

...oookay. that's news to me. would you happen to know the origins of that logo? as in, how old is it and if post WWII (which I believe the scout snipers are?), are you sure it wasn't just another closet nazi playing around with a symbol he used to like already?

re: #11 RogueOne

Image: scout%20sniper%20logo%20123.jpg

The Double S has been used for years by a variety of units. There shouldn't be any punishment because they didn't intend to do anything wrong unless you believe the Sniper Squad is pining for the nazi regime.

Apparently, nobody else in the army knows this.

re: #10 ThomasLite

the damage from the image has already been done, and people in charge need to pay.

re: #14 SpaceJesus

the damage from the image has already been done, and people in charge need to pay.

so when harm is done, your first response is, "someone has to pay" rather than "let's at least learn a valuable lesson from this" and then punishing only those who are actually guilty?

re: #11 RogueOne

that skull also has a Sturmabteilung symbol on it. Is that shit really being used by our military?

re: #16 SpaceJesus

that skull also has a Sturmabteilung symbol on it. Is that shit really being used by our military?

reverse image search only yields some gaming and airsoft forum (oh and a rather sleazy porn site) so I'm skeptical.

re: #15 ThomasLite

Are you kidding me? This isn't some "let's learn a lesson" situation. These are grown ass men with a chain of responsibility overseeing them. This picture is the kind of thing that tarnishes America overseas and makes it harder for America to defend itself when its actually necessary. It puts the lives of civilians and military in danger. People in charge need to be disciplined for this.

re: #17 ThomasLite

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #18 SpaceJesus

and to do that, wouldn't you need to assign blame in a fair and reasonable manner first? that seems to be distinctly absent in your statement.

re: #19 SpaceJesus

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

oh I recognized that as soon as you pointed it out - I meant reverse image search for the logo rogueone posted. sorry for the confusion.

re: #20 ThomasLite

People in charge are responsible for things they reasonably should have known about.

re: #22 SpaceJesus

People in charge are responsible for things they reasonably should have known about.

are they reasonably required to know about every last picture in which enlisted personnel under their command poses, though? afaik it's unclear how far up the chain of command people actually knew this flag was being used.

and I'm still interested in origin and perhaps contemporary use of that emblem RogueOne posted; if it's still in use it should be phased out yesterday for reasons already stated, but it *would* largely excuse this.

sorry, I'm just not as much of a fan of assigning blame as of actually improving shit ;)

re: #13 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

Apparently, nobody else in the army knows this.

em>re: #16 SpaceJesus

that skull also has a Sturmabteilung symbol on it. Is that shit really being used by our military?

I'm willing to bet with a little bit of research I can find dozens of examples of the lightening bolt style S being used in company logos. I would bet none of those guys in uniform would have ever imagined that they would be accused of being nazi sympathizers.

re: #23 ThomasLite

The picture shows that for years the Marine Corp has been using Nazi symbols, and nobody apparently gave a shit. I imagine hundreds if not thousands of officers have known about it, and done nothing over the decades.

Fixed it for them

Image: 022012mcsslogo2800.jpg

re: #24 RogueOne

em>re: #16 SpaceJesus

I'm willing to bet with a little bit of research I can find dozens of examples of the lightening bolt style S being used in company logos. I would bet none of those guys in uniform would have ever imagined that they would be accused of being nazi sympathizers.

Please do.

re: #25 SpaceJesus

The picture shows that for years the Marine Corp has been using Nazi symbols, and nobody apparently gave a shit. I imagine hundreds if not thousands of officers have known about it, and done nothing over the decades.

symbols *can* lose their association to their original meaning. I don't like it and I think it should be stopped, but tbh I'm more interested in the actual association for those using it than what you and I attach to that logo.

and make no mistake, I can go show that double S logo to 30 good scoring high school students around here, and maybe one or two will recognize it. we were actually occupied by those bastards (which tends to leave a cultural memory a little deeper). it's not *that* well-known (at least here in europe).

still as I said, it should end here.

re: #11 RogueOne

Just because I can point you to swastika use in Columbia Sportswear or Finnish army doesn't make a swastika OK in the West. Moreover, as SJ pointed out, on this picture on the skull there is a symbol that very much looks like SA's logo - not in every particular, but this is clearly and S and an A. Coincidence?

Hmm.

[Link: www.snipershide.com...]

Conqueror
Staff Sergeant

Registered: 02/28/08
Posts: 759
Loc: Chapel Hill, NC Uh... did you mean to have the SS logo tattooed on your chest? It's not evident to me whether you are shooting the logo or whether you meant it to stand for Scout Sniper...

chucky
Gunnery Sergeant

Registered: 07/19/06
Posts: 1359
Loc: Sanford, NC Most Marine snipers do have the SS logo. Its no Nazi thing. Scout Sniper.

Lowlight

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17335
Loc: Base of the Rockies USMC Scout Sniper's take a lot of things from WWII Germany, not only do they use the SS, in this case meaning Scout Sniper, they also lifted the Meat Tag made famous by the SS, the Meat tag a tattoo under the arm.

If you can't handle the fact a group of US Military members borrow imaginary from the Nazis, you're on the wrong site, cause the USMC is full of it.

They also use "Kopfjaeger", as well as death heads, etc...

re: #30 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

oh dear. that smells to high heaven.

re: #29 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

It's not close to a "coincidence", it's an STA. Surveillance and Target Aquisition. I'm having a hard time understanding why people would choose to believe that there are roaming bands of nazi marines instead of an unintentional bad typography choice.

re: #32 RogueOne

It's not close to a "coincidence", it's an STA. Surveillance and Target Aquisition. I'm having a hard time understanding why people would choose to believe that there are roaming bands of nazi marines instead of an unintentional bad typography choice.

Seems not so unintentional after all.

re: #32 RogueOne

let's put this another way.
would you agree that references to nazi imagery need to be avoided, intentional or otherwise?

[Link: www.snipershide.com...]

beochie
Lance Corporal

Registered: 06/17/09
Posts: 34 Am I the only one that thinks that its fucked up that a German sniper patch from WWII is on this scope? I know my grandfathers wouldn't appreciate it. Confirmed kills...really, I hope that it wasn't anyones grandfather.

Jeo556
Sergeant

Registered: 11/03/09
Posts: 489
Loc: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Quote:
Am I the only one that thinks that its fucked up that a German sniper patch from WWII is on this scope?

I don't have problem with it. It's not like its pushing Nazi ideology which I do have a problem with. It's simply recognizing that the german sniper in WWII were great marksman and even though they may have fought for a evil cause I'm sure we can all agree that they were a formidable opponent.

Just my two cents...

Oh wow, these are just groovy. Not.

[Link: www.snipershide.com...]

Yikes. Looks like this has uncovered a whole underground culture using Nazi symbolism here and there. This is a problem on many fronts. We'll be hearing more about this in the coming days and weeks.

[Link: snipershide.com...]

Sam308
Sergeant

Registered: 07/09/11
Posts: 105
Loc: stilwell, kansas From what I have seen and heard the USMC scout/snipers have been using it as an unofficial logo for quite some time. Yeah, it's not PC but who cares?

The t-shirt with the scope sight and the "enemy" isn't what's questionable -- it is generic. Given the context that they are snipers. It's the "SS" symbols.

[Link: snipershide.com...]

Lowlight

Stormageddon

Registered: 04/14/01
Posts: 17335
Loc: Base of the Rockies Please there are ton of Nazi related things USMC Scout Sniper's Do.. and have been doing since day one.

The Kopfjager, where do you think that came from... the Runes, (lighting bolts) try painted on the team room walls... all over the place.

The Marines "Meat Tags", the identifying tattoos worn under the arm, from the Nazi's too.

Since the day the program started the Marines have been blazing Nazi symbolism all over the place.

re: #39 Gus

The enemy is pretty specific, no?

re: #34 ThomasLite

let's put this another way.
would you agree that references to nazi imagery need to be avoided, intentional or otherwise?

I think the military is sensitive to bad press and they'll make sure there can't be any misunderstanding with any logo from this point forward. My personal opinion is anything from a cross,a skull, a knife, to a lightening bolt S will be intentionally misconstrued by some so I wouldn't worry too much about it. Like I said, unless you believe those marines are nazi sympathizers then this is just a tad overblown.

re: #41 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

The enemy is pretty specific, no?

What, NVA? I'm focused on the SS stuff.

[Link: snipershide.com...]

re: #42 RogueOne

It is overblown in the sense that the public at large doesn't know about proliferation of Nazi symbolics among the snipers. It does excuse these particular guys on the photo, but the phenomenon is just troubling.

re: #44 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

[Link: snipershide.com...]

Never thought I'd see the day. Now imagine being a Jew around that stuff. Well, at this point maybe he or she would have been desensitized by now?

Awe jeez. Someone was there trying to pull a tu quoque with the Camaro "SS" logo. That's not the same thing. The Secret Service is sometimes shortened as the "SS" and that's not the same thing either. Bleh. So many butter brains.

re: #47 Gus

Awe jeez. Someone was there trying to pull a tu quoque with the Camaro "SS" logo. That's not the same thing. The Secret Service is sometimes shortened as the "SS" and that's not the same thing either. Bleh. So many butter brains.

then shouldn't we point out the Nazi SS didn't use blue and white for their logo?

re: #47 Gus

Well, the good thing is that it's indeed not some neo-Nazi with bad intentions, it's always a plus.

That this thing goes on is sad, but, oh well.

re: #48 RogueOne

then shouldn't we point out the Nazi SS didn't use blue and white for their logo?

No. That doesn't matter. We're looking at a wider pattern here of desensitization. A purple and yellow Confederate patterned flag is what then? They're just doing it for "sport"? How long before we start accepting the Swastika again? "Well, it's a Swastika yes but it's set upon a lime green background. That's what makes it, different."

re: #50 Gus

A barrista drew a swastika in my cappuccino once. I couldn't figure out if it was accident, white supremacy, or a really lame attempt at satirical commentary through espresso and foam.

re: #49 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

Well, the good thing is that it's indeed not some neo-Nazi with bad intentions, it's always a plus.

That this thing goes on is sad, but, oh well.

I think the command needs to get on the ball here especially the lieutenants. Basically "take that gall damned "SS" logo off your rifle now or I'll have you in the brig by sunset!"

OK, there has been a cultural misunderstanding. And frankly, it's not the media or bloggers that are at fault.

This was gonna happen sooner or later anyway. Strange it didn't happen earlier.

re: #53 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

OK, there has been a cultural misunderstanding. And frankly, it's not the media or bloggers that are at fault.

Then like I said last night. Education is important here since apparently something got lost over the past few years regarding SS atrocities. And a good round of military discipline.

re: #53 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

OK, there has been a cultural misunderstanding. And frankly, it's not the media or bloggers that are at fault.

Now we're almost in agreement. There are some people who have the right to be upset but I disagree that some aren't blowing this out of proportion because they really don't like the military all that much. It looks like something that it isn't, and everyone should know it isn't, but still they'll make sure it doesn't happen again.

re: #55 Gus

I feel bad for those guys now, in fact. This "traditions" thing is strong. It's not their fault, but they caught the flak.

re: #56 RogueOne

But this part - "and everyone should know it isn't" - is incorrect. Everyone is not a specialist in creepy military traditions. What everyone should know is that SS runes are Nazi symbols.

re: #58 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

But this part - "and everyone should know it isn't" - is incorrect. Everyone is not a specialist in creepy military traditions. What everyone should know is that SS runes are Nazi symbols.

Yep. Like the difference between SS-Totenkopfverbände "death heads" or skulls compared to the traditional pirate skull and bones.

It is not a "similar" symbol. It is the symbol. Bunch of morons standing in front of that flag.

re: #57 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

I feel bad for those guys now, in fact. This "traditions" thing is strong. It's not their fault, but they caught the flak.

good point. I do hope the USMC does the right thing and roots this thing out here and now.

re: #57 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

I feel bad for those guys now, in fact. This "traditions" thing is strong. It's not their fault, but they caught the flak.

Speaking of traditions. I thought the tradition was to put the flag up of your enemy in some satirical manner? That is the enemy of your current engagement.

Like this from World War Two. Which is essentially a souvenir after a victorious battle or engagement. "Capture the flag" as it were.

re: #63 Gus

I prefer this.

I'm going to have to update my GIS settings. I can't search for an old BN logo without some guys schlong showing up.

re: #64 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

I prefer this.

[Video]

Interesting. Were they stacking those up to be burned?

фашистские знамена на Красной площади = Nazi flags in Red Square.

For a second there they looked like Italian troops.

re: #66 Gus

Nah, not even trampled.

[Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

They were actually gathered and sent to museums.

re: #69 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

Nah, not even trampled.

[Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

They were actually gathered and sent to museums.

This one is kind of related.

[Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

I've just read in 2 sources that they were heaped on a special platform, so as not to desecrate the Red Square stones. The banner-carriers also were in special gloves. After the parade, both the platform and the gloves (but not the banners) were burned.

re: #70 Gus

This one is kind of related.

[Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

Caption reads: "Samurai flags in the hands of Soviet soldiers"

Google translation. This is what I was mentioned above. About "captured flags."

re: #70 Gus

Nice click-fu there ;)

re: #73 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

Nice click-fu there ;)

Started going forward from your first link there. Very interesting photographs. This stuff is from the Manchuria engagement. Which of course all led up to the Korean War. Good times.

FYI do not read the youtube comments for this video, they pretty much rune'd my day

re: #74 Gus

Archival photos. Here's the whole tree: [Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

Советские воины беседуют с жителями Харбина or "Soviet soldiers chatting with the residents of Harbin."

[Link: victory.rusarchives.ru...]

You can see the Chinese are greeting them with flowers after they drove the Japanese occupiers out of Manchuria. Drove of course is a kind way of looking at it.

What I don't understand is the apparent compulsion on the part of these soldiers to justify using Nazi symbols. Why aren't they horrified that they didn't know and vow to educate themselves and come up with something different to symbolize their units?

Perhaps this points out a weakness in history education in our schools? That's probably an obvious point.

Are we too soft in that education? Do we hide things from students and instead of showing them the atrocities they simply become dates and names? As opposed to showing them what really happened?

German Atrocities

German SS officer and a female guard knee-deep in decaying flesh and bones as they haul bodies into mass grave after they were forced by the British army to dig this pit and bury the corpses at concentration camp.

Location: Belsen Bergen, Germany
Date taken: May 1945
Photographer: George Rodger

re: #80 Gus

If there isn't a recent history course during the army training, there should be (all over the world).

More.

Female SS soldiers filling mass grave w. corpses while under guard by British soldiers at the Bergen Belsen concentration camp.
Location: Bergen Belsen, Germany
Date taken: May 1945
Photographer: George Rodger

Show these morons what the SS did during the rein of the 3rd Reich. And this is just the aftermath.

re: #82 Gus

They don't open for me, but I found them at getty.

Another.

The holocaust of Gardelegen took place on April 13. German SS guards tried to burn between 500 and 1, 000 prisoners to prevent their being liberated by advancing Americans. There are approximately 150 corpses on the warehouse floor. In the background are three soldiers of the US 9th Army who took Gardelegen on April 17 and found the building still burning.
Location: Gardelegen, Germany
Date taken: April 17, 1945
Photographer: William Vandivert

re: #83 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

They don't open for me, but I found them at getty.

Really? I wonder if it's a country thing. Check the link on my end and it opens up.

re: #80 Gus

Are we too soft in that education? Do we hide things from students and instead of showing them the atrocities they simply become dates and names? As opposed to showing them what really happened?

German Atrocities

I don't know. It's been a long time since I was a high school student, but I don't particularly recall seeing graphic photos of the atrocities. I think that occurred in my own reading. I was one of those weirdos who loved history and sought out books to read on my own. I do remember that we had Robert Clary come to our school and speak about his experiences in the concentration camps.

... I think war is closer to Apocalypse Now and these guys are just reveling in the depravity of wicked violence.

I think the thought process goes towards things that are just kind of messed up. I'm sure half these guys are blasting death metal which talks about all kinds of horrible things (Obviously listening to music and making flags representing your squad isn't on the same level..)

I don't think they take this apparent "hardcore" imagery beyond its face value.. Badass/Evil, etc...

Obviously, I think if you showed them those images of mass graves and the SS they wouldn't side with that. I think they are just a bunch of idiots who probably don't think through on the imagery they associate as being all the previously mentioned descriptions.

Meh. Touchy subject. I think they need some education over punishment...

re: #87 APox

... I think war is closer to Apocalypse Now and these guys are just reveling in the depravity of wicked violence.

I think the thought process goes towards things that are just kind of messed up. I'm sure half these guys are blasting death metal which talks about all kinds of horrible stuff...

I don't think they take this apparent "hardcore" imagery beyond its face value.. Badass/Evil, etc...

Obviously, I think if you showed them those images of mass graves and the SS they wouldn't side with that.

Meh. Touchy subject.

That's why it needs to be shown. We can't be afraid to look at the savagery of men in all our history. Otherwise we begin to white wash our history. At times history should in fact be a visceral and emotional experience rather than a collection of dates, names, and words. A picture of course speaks a thousand words.

re: #85 Gus

Nope. Tried several IPs.

re: #89 ლ(ಠ益ಠ)ლ

Nope. Tried several IPs.

OK. This was my original search. Maybe that will work.

Continuing on the visual aspect of history. When I do a ss german site:.mil search and a Schutzstaffel site:.mil search the results show little if any of the atrocities the SS carried out. The same is true when I carry out a Holocaust site:.mil search. .mil sites would be US military sites. Searching for concentration camps site:.mil does reveal more.

Can't help thinking of this:
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

A STATEMENT ON THE SS FLAG FROM THE COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS GEN. JAMES F. AMOS

2/10/2012
Headquarters Marine Corps

WASHINGTON —
On February 9, I was made aware of an internet photo depicting Marines posing with a flag containing a Nazi symbol. I want to be clear that the Marine Corps unequivocally does not condone the use of any such symbols to represent our units or Marines.

The local command to which the Marines in the photo were assigned investigated this issue last November. They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany. To ensure the Marines involved fully understood the historical use of the SS symbology, a formal instructional class was prepared and delivered by unit leadership.

In order to ensure that all Marines are aware of the Marine Corps' position on this issue, I have directed that:

- My commanders investigate the prevalence of the use of SS or other unauthorized symbols within the reconnaissance and sniper communities.

- The Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps immediately detach from his current duties in Washington, DC and personally meet with every senior Staff Non-commissioned Officer and Marine from our sniper and reconnaissance communities to reinforce my message and expectations.

- The commanding general of our training and education command review the current sniper school curriculum to ensure it contains prohibitions on the use of the SS symbol and other inappropriate symbols.

On behalf of the Marine Corps and all Marines, I apologize to all offended by this regrettable incident.

-END-

[Link: www.marines.mil...]

re: #93 Bob Dillon

All great.

re: #93 Bob Dillon

sounds like they're doing The Right Thing™. good for them.

re: #93 Bob Dillon

I don't think that answer could be any better. Good on them.

They determined that the Marines in the photo were ignorant of the connection of this symbol to the Holocaust and monumental atrocities associated with Nazi Germany.

Gee, that sounds a lot like what err...ahem...someone was saying last night and caught major flack over, yet everyone accepts it now and says good?

Sigh...I just never will understand...

re: #97 ausador

You were right as to the bare facts. However, you dismissed any significance whatsoever:

The Marines are trained and taught that they are "badass MoFo's", "the tip of the spear", the esprit of America's regular fighting forces. If this use of dual lightning bolts to represent a double "S" (as in the "Scout Snipers") surprises you then you might want to look back on regimental emblems during Korea and Vietnam. Units of of both the Army and the Marines appropriated quite a few symbols from German army/S.S. units as their regimental emblems simply because they thought they were "badass" or "cool" looking. (Your mostly dealing with 19-21 year olds here)

This is not in any way a racist or anti-semetic or nazi expression, these are young men, snipers tasked with killing people from long range that they will (hopefully) never see up close, using what they consider a neat/cool/badass/whatever symbol for their unit. (S.S. for Scout Snipers)

I can't believe that anyone would even make an issue of this, this is more an outrageous outrage of the left/perception issue than a real life problem.

Obviously, the Army disagrees.

This is the current Marine Corps Times site. MCT, like its Army equivalent, is a private (Gannett) newspaper dedicated to the Marine Corps market. The comments from Marines and supporters to the SS articles are not encouraging.

[Link: www.marinecorpstimes.com...]

re: #98 (~_^)

I also said that I was glad it had come to light because it would be stopped, (it has) but mainly that I disagreed with those wanting the members of this unit to be punished because I doubted they understood the significance/meaning of the symbol they used. I asked people to see it as not overtly anti-Semitic but instead as a bunch of dumb ass kids with no knowledge of history using what they thought was a "cool" symbol for their unit.

I got gang-piled with downdings for saying what turns out, as I expected it would, to be the truth.

Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.
(there is a reason for the 24 hour rule, you know)

re: #98 (~_^)

You were right as to the bare facts. However, you dismissed any significance whatsoever:

Obviously, the Army disagrees.

BTW, the Navy owns the Marines, not the Army. ;)

re: #100 ausador

I know what you "also said". The punishment/no punishment part naturally derives from the intent or lack thereof. Which is why I wrote above that you were correct about the bare facts.

re: #101 ausador

BTW, the Navy owns the Marines, not the Army. ;)

For me Army = armed forces = military. (I'm not an American.) Altho I acknowledge that you're formally correct in a narrow context.