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1 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:17:56am

First--the doctrine comes from 1 Corinthians 15:29.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Secondly--as I have already explained, individuals in the LDS church are doing this, having already been told to stop. We have been told to work on on our ancestors, and not famous people we admire. The church is now looking at ways to shut this down--probably taking away the necessary computer access to those people or even sterner measures.

There is no central department that decides on names; there are just too many people doing their genealogy for Salt Lake to clear every name.

2 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:21:36am

Every time something like this happens, Mormons will yell, "PERSECUTION!," all the while cheerfully forgetting about the two agreements where the powers that be promised (in 1995 and 2002) that they would no longer baptize Jewish Holocaust victims. In addition, Anne Frank has been necro-baptized NINE times by Mormons (even though in order to necro-baptize someone, it has to be done by a living descendent, something Anne Frank doesn't have). The same thing happened with Simon Wiesenthal's parents (even though there are no descendents of the Wiesenthals).

The Mormons keep saying, "We'll stop, we'll stop," yet never do. Plus, Eli Wiesel is on a list to be necro-baptized after he dies.

Mormons keep pushing their 11th Article of Faith, which says, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may," and their 13th Article of Faith, which says, "We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." Their continued actions prove they only apply these to their dealings with other Mormons only.

3 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:24:43am

re: #1 To hold my temper, most of the time.

The problem is that the powers that be don't want to stop the practice of necro-baptism, especially when it comes to Jewish Holocaust victims. The same cycle will start again in a modicum of time and will continue until someone like Helen Radkey calls the press and says, "So-and-so has been baptized again."

4 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 9:28:53am

re: #3 sffilk

The problem is that the powers that be don't want to stop the practice of necro-baptism, especially when it comes to Jewish Holocaust victims. The same cycle will start again in a modicum of time and will continue until someone like Helen Radkey calls the press and says, "So-and-so has been baptized again."

The church has tried really hard to cultivate a good relationship with Israel and the Jewish community. Until now, they had asked members to stop doing this and had a pop up screen that reminded people not to do it. Apparently there was more--I wouldn't know, I never tried to test the system.

They've just announced they're going to start going after people who have ignored the requests to stop.

[Link: www.deseretnews.com...]

5 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 10:51:01am

re: #4 To hold my temper, most of the time.

The church has tried really hard to cultivate a good relationship with Israel and the Jewish community. Until now, they had asked members to stop doing this and had a pop up screen that reminded people not to do it. Apparently there was more--I wouldn't know, I never tried to test the system.

They've just announced they're going to start going after people who have ignored the requests to stop.

[Link: www.deseretnews.com...]

I understand where you're coming from, but considering that this practice has been going on for at least 15 years, that the church has been called upon the carpet more than once and promised twice, in writing, to stop the practice (the last time in 2002) yet it has continued to go on, I don't readily accept their word. Also, it's not just Jews who have been necro-baptized. Secretary of State Clinton's dead father, a Christian pastor of (I'm not sure which denomination) was necro-baptized. Ms. Clinton ended up talking to Senator Hatch about this practice because of that.

Also, you've not explained how it is that Eli Wiesel, who is still alive, who is a Jewish Holocaust survivor, can be on a list to be baptized after his death. Whether you like it or not, it's going to happen. Someone's going to lie about being a descendent of Mr. Wiesel and necro-baptize him.

Don't believe the church continues to do this? Look here:

http://famousdeadmormons.com/

It's not just dead Jews - it's dead "anyone who's not a Mormon" who they want to do it to.

6 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 11:24:21am

re: #1 To hold my temper, most of the time.

"It takes a good deal of deception and manipulation to get an improper submission through the safeguards we have put in place," the statement reads. "While no system is foolproof in preventing the handful of individuals who are determined to falsify submissions, we are committed to taking action against individual abusers by suspending the submitter's access privileges. We will also consider whether other church disciplinary actions should be taken."

While they are "considering" disciplinary actions, there have been 650,000 Holocaust victims baptized by proxy by the Mormon Church. That's not just one or two, or even a dozen, which I may be able to say, ok, a few "slipped" through. This is an ongoing practice for many years which hasn't stopped and doesn't appear to be stopping. Suspending the submitters access privileges isn't cutting it.

After thinking more about this, suing them is going to be the only way they'll stop.

7 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 11:41:34am

The database is owned by the church. If the church intended to ignore the agreement, why then post the names? They know someone is watching. Probably right now the church IT department is trying to figure out a way to have an alert pop up in SLC if someone tries to start the procedure for certain names.

8 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 11:54:57am

re: #7 To hold my temper, most of the time.

The database is owned by the church. If the church intended to ignore the agreement, why then post the names? They know someone is watching. Probably right now the church IT department is trying to figure out a way to have an alert pop up in SLC if someone tries to start the procedure for certain names.

I'm not following you. What agreement? And with whom? They haven't stopped so they ARE ignoring any agreements they made to not continue this practice. I don't really care if it's only a few people doing it. Whomever is doing it, no one has done anything significant to stop it - by way of disciplining. They issue an apology each time and then go right on ahead doing it again.

And why in the world are names of Holocaust victims (or any Jew for that matter) sitting in a Mormon database? For what purpose? I don't know any Jews who go to the Mormons for genealogy. We have our own databases through jewishgen.org.

9 researchok  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:03:27pm

Blaming the Mormon Church for the actions of a few individuals is outrageous. The Church no longer condones the practice and has made that clear.

Blaming the Church or a religion for the actions of a few is somewhere we all had better not go.

10 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:19:10pm

re: #9 researchok

Blaming the Mormon Church for the actions of a few individuals is outrageous. The Church no longer condones the practice and has made that clear.

Blaming the Church or a religion for the actions of a few is somewhere we all had better not go.

That's the problem. They say they don't condone the practice yet still, clandestinely, allows it to keep happening. And they allow it to keep happening until caught doing it again. It's a vicious circle. Mormons say theirs is the "one true church" and everyone should belong to it, and they take to lies and clandestine actions to make everyone a Mormon, whether it be in this life or the next. They continue to lie about doing it. They continue to promise to stop doing it. They keep doing it. What does that tell you?

11 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:20:37pm

I've been watching this controversy for years, and maybe I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me see why I -- or anyone -- should care what Mormons do in the privacy of their own temple. (As long as they're not sacrificing children or something, obvously.) Do they think this "baptism" (the church I was raised in only baptised the living) has some effect on the soul of the deceased?

Could someone please enlighten me?

12 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:21:10pm

re: #7 To hold my temper, most of the time.

The database is owned by the church. If the church intended to ignore the agreement, why then post the names? They know someone is watching. Probably right now the church IT department is trying to figure out a way to have an alert pop up in SLC if someone tries to start the procedure for certain names.

Mormons are heavily into genealogical work to turn everyone, whether alive or dead, into Mormons. They need to keep the records accurate to ensure that they're not baptizing someone twice simultaneously. As far as Anne Frank, each time her name is found in the baptismal records, the church "deletes" it, yet it still finds it way back into the baptismal records because evidently there's a list of Jewish Holocaust victims and other who they feel need to be made Mormon after death.

13 sffilk  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:25:06pm

re: #11 Cinnabar

I've been watching this controversy for years, and maybe I'm missing something, but I can't for the life of me see why I -- or anyone -- should care what Mormons do in the privacy of their own temple. (As long as they're not sacrificing children or something, obvously.) Do they think this "baptism" (the church I was raised in only baptised the living) has some effect on the soul of the deceased?

Could someone please enlighten me?

Simple: it's about respect. Mormons says they're all about respect, yet in actuality the only ones Mormons seem to respect are other Mormons. They don't respect Jews; why would they keep telling Jews (and other non-Mormons) that the only way into heaven is to apostatize from their beliefs and become Mormon? (11th Article of Faith).

Mormons say they are honest in their dealings with all others, yet they continue to necro-baptize Jewish Holocaust victims and others as Mormons after promising not to do so (with regards to Jewish Holocaust victims) and lying about doing so (13th Article of Faith). They then yell "PERSECUTION!" because they're caught lying when they agreed, in writing, to stop this practice (with regards to Jewish Holocaust victims).

One more thing: how about the 650,000 Jewish Holocaust victims whose names are still on the Mormon books?

14 Someone Please Beam Me Up!  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:43:58pm

re: #13 sffilk

Simple: it's about respect. Mormons says they're all about respect, yet in actuality the only ones Mormons seem to respect are other Mormons. They don't respect Jews; why would they keep telling Jews (and other non-Mormons) that the only way into heaven is to apostatize from their beliefs and become Mormon? (11th Article of Faith).

Most religions would say the same thing about other faiths, and I don't care what they think either. Maybe I should be asking why people of other faiths care what Mormons are doing in the privacy of their own temple. Since the people of other faiths presumably don't think this posthumous baptism has any effect.

15 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:45:09pm

re: #9 researchok

Blaming the Mormon Church for the actions of a few individuals is outrageous. The Church no longer condones the practice and has made that clear.

Blaming the Church or a religion for the actions of a few is somewhere we all had better not go.

Outrageous? The Church owns the database. The Church is responsible for what goes into it. This is hardly an act of a few "rogue" parishioners if 650,000 names have been added, especially added, deleted and re-added.

16 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 12:49:10pm

re: #14 Cinnabar

Most religions would say the same thing about other faiths, and I don't care what they think either. Maybe I should be asking why people of other faiths care what Mormons are doing in the privacy of their own temple. Since the people of other faiths presumably don't think this posthumous baptism has any effect.

Jews have been targeted for 1000s of years for conversion. We have been killed and tortured for not converting, so maybe you can understand the outrage.

Disrespecting the dead is a crime in most states/countries and this should be considered no less a crime.

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 1:12:23pm

re: #15 marjoriemoon

Outrageous? The Church owns the database. The Church is responsible for what goes into it. This is hardly an act of a few "rogue" parishioners if 650,000 names have been added, especially added, deleted and re-added.

The database is simply the record of what has been done.

The church had relied on the members to be on the honor system to submit names correctly. After the first time that Holocaust names were discovered, the church agreed to ask the members to stop. Obviously, that didn't happen, even with pop up screens saying, specifically, don't submit names of Jewish Holocaust victims. Since asking isn't working, they're going to start blocking people from using the system.

The agreement in question was to get the members to stop using the names. My point was that if the church hierarchy were actually the ones doing this, they could just keep the names out of the database.

18 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:39:37pm

Jewish Gen has a response to this here:

[Link: www.jewishgen.org...]

Has the church done anything to uphold its decade-old agreement with the Jewish community? The bad news is that the Mormons continue to hijack Jewish genocide victims and other Jewish dead. Moreover, when a Jew is baptized, the door is open for all of his deceased ancestors to be baptized as well. Regrettably, their baptismal records place before the public a revisionist view that these deceased Jews were Mormons, a position they would have rejected in life.

A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.

A blogger wrote: "I don't buy the argument that it's done for selfless reasons. It's not selflessness, it's arrogance. And especially in light of the Mormon Church's agreement in 1995 to stop baptizing Holocaust victims, it's even more reprehensible for them to continue the practice. If a church can't be trusted to keep its word in a matter such as this, then where is its moral standing?"

I find the highlighted part to be even more troubling. The Church justifies itself by saying they can baptize any "direct descendant" of a Mormon. So if a Jew who had passed, say in the 15th century had been baptized, the Church, now considering them a Mormon, can justify baptizing all of their descendants for centuries onward. If anyone can't figure out the problem here, then they also have a few screws loose.

In the end, the Mormons have left it up to us to search for our relatives and request removal as well as attempting to go back through the centuries, through many lists of names, which can be virtually impossible, given the fact that for 100s of years, Jews in the diaspora were never allowed to keep written birth or death records. Our family records were kept by word of mouth.

Secondly, the name spellings are difficult. While researching my family years ago, I've found the names on both sides to be spelled multiple ways. Basically, these are English translations of European names. Suffixes can be spelled as -itch, -itz, -otz, -otch, -etz, -itz and so on.

Search the Mormon database:
[Link: www.familysearch.org...]

Anyone is free to justify this abhorrent practice in any form, but count me in as outraged.

19 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:43:14pm
A commentator on this topic said that anti-Semites who desecrate Jewish cemeteries want to destroy even the memory of Jews by breaking their tombstones and other symbols whereby we honor and remember them. He concluded that baptism of the Jewish dead is just a more sophisticated form of breaking tombstones.

I might remind you that Hitler went through Jewish cemeteries, removed the headstones and used them to pave roads. This is the company the Mormons wish to keep? Turnabout is Fair Play brought this up, but it hadn't fully sunk in with me, I was so infuriated at the time. Isn't violating the souls of our ancestors WORSE than violating headstones?

20 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:52:09pm

One more post to search for Holocaust victims:

HOW TO RANDOM SEARCH FOR HOLOCAUST VICTIMS IN THE IGI:

Go to [Link: tinyurl.com...] or [Link: www.familysearch.org...]

In FIRSTNAME box, type common Jewish name, i.e.: Sarah, Moses, Chaim, Isaac, etc. Leave LASTNAME box blank.

In EVENT, select DEATH/BURIAL

In YEAR RANGE, select '+/- TWO YEARS'

In YEAR, type any one year between 1942-1945 (1944 is best).

In region, select CONTINENTAL EUROPE

In COUNTRY, select POLAND (country with most camps)

Leave all other boxes blank, now click SEARCH.

Search results will display a list of names of many Holocaust victims. Click on an individual's name to select record to display. (Frequently a death camp will be named).

Click PEDIGREE near top of page to view Family Tree.

To search for a specific individual, do enter specific name/date/place, try variant spellings.

21 Flavia  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 2:52:19pm

This is the equivalent of spitting on someone's grave. And as far as "not holding the church responsible for what some of their members do, they told them to stop it, what more can they do?", here's my answer. I have 2 children. I cannot watch them 24 hours a day - they have school, I have work, etc. And yet, if they do something I told them not to do when out of my sight, & I am told of it, what should I do? Throw up my hands & say, "Well, I told them not to d it!" Or should I punish them, make them undo what they have done as best they can, or work to undo it myself? For a church that has control over every aspect of their followers lives, this should be very easy. At the very least, making the pronouncement that "If you do this, we throw you out" might let people know that they actually are serious about their word - unlike the evidence of the last 15 years.

22 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 4:06:57pm

re: #20 marjoriemoon

One more post to search for Holocaust victims:

HOW TO RANDOM SEARCH FOR HOLOCAUST VICTIMS IN THE IGI:

Go to [Link: tinyurl.com...] or [Link: www.familysearch.org...]

In FIRSTNAME box, type common Jewish name, i.e.: Sarah, Moses, Chaim, Isaac, etc. Leave LASTNAME box blank.

In EVENT, select DEATH/BURIAL

In YEAR RANGE, select '+/- TWO YEARS'

In YEAR, type any one year between 1942-1945 (1944 is best).

In region, select CONTINENTAL EUROPE

In COUNTRY, select POLAND (country with most camps)

Leave all other boxes blank, now click SEARCH.

Search results will display a list of names of many Holocaust victims. Click on an individual's name to select record to display. (Frequently a death camp will be named).

Click PEDIGREE near top of page to view Family Tree.

To search for a specific individual, do enter specific name/date/place, try variant spellings.

familysearch.org includes lots and lots of indexed names that are part of the indexing project. I, personally, have indexed names for this project, so I know it was only for the purpose of creating a genealogical tool.

23 What, me worry?  Fri, Feb 24, 2012 6:00:11pm

re: #22 To hold my temper, most of the time.

familysearch.org includes lots and lots of indexed names that are part of the indexing project. I, personally, have indexed names for this project, so I know it was only for the purpose of creating a genealogical tool.

I don't know how that HoustonNews link got there! I thought I copied the info from the JewishGen site, but obviously didn't test my links, which I like to always do. Sorry about that!

Anyway, it's my understanding that the names are pulled from this index for baptizing. The bottom of the link here [Link: www.jewishgen.org...] describes how the names are entered and from where. I don't know if the information is still accurate. The links back to the Mormon sites are broken.

24 Bob Levin  Sat, Feb 25, 2012 10:30:24pm

I have had people trying to convert me--it seems like it's a yearly ritual since high school. Friends, Born Agains, eventually the visits from Jehovah's Witnesses--and it hasn't worked. Hasn't this has been the case with just about everyone here?

Usually the attempts begin with this question: What do you (or Jews) think happens to you after you are dead? It's a reasonable question. I've found that the strength of my answer (my knowledge, whether my argument is cogent) determines the next step in the conversation. By now, I've got Jehovah's Witnesses checking their watches and telling me about an appointment they've just got to get to.

There are rabbinic texts to read that provide an answer to such a question, but ultimately those don't matter. What matters is your own deeply held spiritual beliefs. I think the issue is not so much what they do, but what we do, how we feel. Jews tend to avoid spiritual questions--we are very much to each his or her own. Unfortunately, avoiding this topic with others means that we tend to avoid this topic within ourselves. But this topic is ultimately our fortification, and the stronger this fortification, the more the LDS seem foolish when trying this stunt.

But, that's my minority of one opinion.


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